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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. No that is worth something. Having an interest is a start and well done. And you probably do know more than many Church goers. Going to church isn't about knowing everything there is to know though. I am sure God doesn't care about that. What is important is the attempt and the trying to improve yourself.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above. I believe so and to the best of my ability. You asked if I was born into Islam I would be different. Well I am glad I wasn't. I consider myself very blessed to be a part of my culture like the Jews are a part of their culture and I love them because we too can identify with genocide and a holocaust of our own at the hands of Islam. So as you might expect, wounds are very raw about Islam, at least for my people.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. For what it's worth I'm 'confirmed' also. (Or was.) I formally renounced my Catholicism decades ago.
Member since 2008.
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sokorny
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+x+xOne more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another. But there is evil. Lot's of it. In our society is also evil. Take the treatment of Cardinal Pell for instance. That was pure evil too, because everyone thought it was ok to trample on this man';s human rights. Well sorry, but you can't make it up as you go along. I think when he turned a blind eye to the acts of those under his management he lost most of his credit ... (well at least in the eyes of everyone but the church)
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. Of course I believe morality is changing. Not for the better either as we have seen in the last 20 odd years. We are regressing big time. There is much less love, cohesion, and unity today. You have simply fallen into the age old trap of believing the next generation to be bereft of morals and wayward. I am really surprised a man with your appreciate for history and culture can't see that. It also makes me sad knowing i am destined to fall into that trap and in many ways am already half way there.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. No that is worth something. Having an interest is a start and well done. And you probably do know more than many Church goers. Going to church isn't about knowing everything there is to know though. I am sure God doesn't care about that. What is important is the attempt and the trying to improve yourself. Please respond to my post. Please admit that what you wrote regarding misery etc was just subject nonsense. I can accept you believe in many of the things you say but i won't stand for bullshit masked as fact.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above. I believe so and to the best of my ability. You asked if I was born into Islam I would be different. Well I am glad I wasn't. I consider myself very blessed to be a part of my culture like the Jews are a part of their culture and I love them because we too can identify with genocide and a holocaust of our own at the hands of Islam. So as you might expect, wounds are very raw about Islam, at least for my people. So you still won't answer the question because you know, in your heart of hearts, and in your intellectual capacity, that you would not be the religion you are had you not been born into it. This is proof that religion is a cultural, societal inherited mindset. In other words you have been brainwashed. You know, deep down, that your religiosity has been imposed upon you. Your young feeble (at the time) impressionable mind never stood a chance. If anyone is shackled by an imposed belief system it is you. Your mind cannot and will not consider a world where your religion is simply a cultural inheritance inflicted on a blank slate.
Member since 2008.
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And Everyone Blamed Clive
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Iconostasis.aspx Is that the left or right leg ?
Winner of Official 442 Comment of the day Award - 10th April 2017
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+xOne more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another. But there is evil. Lot's of it. In our society is also evil. Take the treatment of Cardinal Pell for instance. That was pure evil too, because everyone thought it was ok to trample on this man';s human rights. Well sorry, but you can't make it up as you go along. I think when he turned a blind eye to the acts of those under his management he lost most of his credit ... (well at least in the eyes of everyone but the church) We will see about that. He as far as I know, was also the first to actually act wherever he could whenever he became aware of concrete evidence of abuse. Might no be enough for some, but in some ways he could be one of the pioneers of change. This will all come out in the wash and can't comment till then because I do not know enough of the facts yet.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise Anyway I've wasted enough time. Evangelically blinded adherents are impossible to converse with. You may as well argue with a creationist. Edit: I realise my arguments will never sway him. Most of my posts are aimed at those that question their beliefs or are seeking a more rigorous, intellectual analysis of the who, whys and what's of why they believe something.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. For what it's worth I'm 'confirmed' also. (Or was.) I formally renounced my Catholicism decades ago. There is nothing subjective about it. It is actually historical fact. I feel very sad for you though. And my offer still stands. What you do with the information afterwards is up to you because we do not believe in slamming things down people's throats. We believe in FREE WILL as mentioned in the Bible.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise Anyway I've wasted enough time. Evangelically blinded adherents are impossible to converse with. You may as well argue with a creationist. We are not evangelicals either. You are basically very ignorant and know nothing about Orthodoxy. We are not new age Christians. Christianity isn't a fashion accessory for us or a Rock N Roll show.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Iconostasis.aspx Is that the left or right leg ? We cross with the right hand. When we start walking, we start with the right as well. Just like in the military.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. For what it's worth I'm 'confirmed' also. (Or was.) I formally renounced my Catholicism decades ago. There is nothing subjective about it. He was replying to my chat with you and your statements regarding misery, bullying etc etc etc
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise Anyway I've wasted enough time. Evangelically blinded adherents are impossible to converse with. You may as well argue with a creationist. The same can be said about someone with a closed mind such as yourself. Might as well argue with a tree.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above. I believe so and to the best of my ability. You asked if I was born into Islam I would be different. Well I am glad I wasn't. I consider myself very blessed to be a part of my culture like the Jews are a part of their culture and I love them because we too can identify with genocide and a holocaust of our own at the hands of Islam. So as you might expect, wounds are very raw about Islam, at least for my people. So you still won't answer the question because you know, in your heart of hearts, and in your intellectual capacity, that you would not be the religion you are had you not been born into it. This is proof that religion is a cultural, societal inherited mindset. In other words you have been brainwashed. You know, deep down, that your religiosity has been imposed upon you. Your young feeble (at the time) impressionable mind never stood a chance. If anyone is shackled by an imposed belief system it is you. Your mind cannot and will not consider a world where your religion is simply a cultural inheritance inflicted on a blank slate. Delete
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters.
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mouflonrouge
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Anyway, back to the topic.
Cardinal Pell's trial isn't about his alleged inaction as Bishop of The Australian Archdiocese. The whole point of these charges is because the authorities have recieved statements of allegations implicating him to Sexual Abuse as well.
Now, I want to see the evidence to all that. And we will all get that chance. :)
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion?
Member since 2008.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. A lot of talk, but no substance. There is no community. You don't have a community. My church isn't window dressing. It tackles the issues society doesn't know how to tackle.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. There is no community. You don't have a community. Don't I? aha fair enough. So again, Is misery at an all time high and how do you measure the difference in misery levels between Perth 2017 and Judea 527BC? Is there more bullying in the workplace now or is it reported more? Is there more homelessness now in Adelaide or in the holy land now or at any point in the godliness of history? Is the rate of divorce being higher now at least in some part due to the fact in the past a man could take lovers and smack his wife into submission and if she left she would be shunned by her "community"? Is there more mental illness now than in the past or is it mis/over/wrongly diagnosed now and just more labels attached to the various forms of the human condition? Are kids now more anxious because of less god or more mass media and social media (both of which sit apart/alongside from religion)? Are these subjective statements by you or fact? I want to give you a chance
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing. If I was born into Islam, then it's off to the garden shed for me. Answer his question. Why can't you? It's truly fascinating.
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