I did. I said I would quite happily slot into Judaism. Circumcision might be painful though. 
 

The fact you truly think you answered his questions (or you know you didn't but won't admit it which is worse) tells me all I need to know to be honest.

Yes there is more bullying now. 

And most certainly, there is more mental illness than ever before. In the old days, it was eliminated so you have to ask WHY? What has changed?

Family structure has changed. Divorce rates have changed. Family Law court has changed denying fathers access to their children. Many things have changed and you reap what you sow, 

Yes he did. He asked me what would be the case if I was born into another culture, and I divulged my feelings about the topic.

I would clearly have little problem.

I wouldn't have thought that evidence would be made available to the public ... at least not while the trial is underway.

Okaaaaaay
The first half of your statement is possibly true, I concede.
But as for the second sentence, all I can say is "have a good day".

Feelings trump facts. You must want to slap yourself you damned leftie.
vaya con dios

No it wouldn't be available I think. Everything will be suppressed to ensure a fair trial and to avoid any undue influence on the jury, if that is still possible. I believe the media has serious questions to answer to as well, and should probably be now held in contempt! 

I'm not sure if the rules are relaxed outside of Victoria. 

Either way, everything will be scrutinised carefully in court and when its all finished we will know. I am very happy that the media circus has now ended. 

OK but you talk as if you have the statistics. Interesting. 

You complain about Trump, but it is the sad disintegration of society and community which will bring more Trumps to the fore.

You reap what you sow. Discontent isn't possible in a cohesive society, and we are becoming less cohesive and losing our sense of community. Most people don't know their neighbours. I was gobsmacked at this. 

It is this that brought Hitler to power as well. 

Thanks for the honest reply. I appreciate an intellectually honest atheist. I would argue such a view does mean you can't really condemn others for their beliefs or behaviours (even the insidious crimes that this conversation started over) - you can say you personally don't agree with them and don't want to live in a society with that, but you'd need to concede this is merely a matter of personal preference. I meet very few atheists though when confronted with great evil who are willing to make such an admission. 

Anyway, I don't want to join in the debate because the last few pages have proven what I said would happen (i.e. everyone went crazy!).

Just for the interest of disclosure, I'm a Sydney Anglican, which is a conservative (theologically, not politically) evangelical denomination and I teach the Bible in a university context as a job. I'm merely pointing this out, because you twice used the word evangelical to describe the more anti-intellectual/anti-science style of Christianity. While I think this is sadly often true of American politics/religion, in the Australian and English contexts it is almost the exact opposite (& so ironically, Sydney Anglicans are often accused of being too intellectual and too pro-science by other Christians - we can't win either way, lol).

To answer your question to mouflon about upbringing - I didn't grow up in a Christian home, and would have called myself an atheist/agnostic for most of my life. Most of my family and friends still think I'm an idiot for becoming a Christian, although we are able to disagree and still get along just fine. I became a Christian during my second year of uni. My conversion had nothing to do with my upbringing or societal exposure (although I definitely had better access to Christianity in Australia) - it came as a result of exploring the intellectual arguments and historicity of various world views & making a rational, informed decision. I would of course agree that many believers of all faiths have their view as the result of their upbringing and have never critically analysed what they believe and why. To be honest, most of the atheists I meet at uni would fit in the same category as well & have never actually critically analysed their atheism or read intellectual Christian arguments for belief in Jesus - they just grew up not going to church (or decided it was dumb at around 12), were brought up being told that religion is dumb & had that reinforced by their friends/society. I sadly see very little genuine engagement from the vast majority of society on what is arguably the most important question there is. But ultimately it must be said that either way, none of this has any bearing on the truthfulness or not of any world view.

Anyway, gonna leave this chat before I get sucked in. Have a good day guys :)

Well that's an argument that will rage on forever but there's loads of literature that will explain why it's more nuanced then simply saying you're free to do whatever you want if you're an atheist.  

I doubt there'd be many atheists or agnostics that subscribe to that way of thinking at all in any case.  Religious people tend to want to tar all atheists with the same brush as having no morals but honestly, try as I might I can't remember the last time I murdered or raped or robbed someone simply because I didn't believe in God.  I'm obviously letting my fellow 'moral vacuums' down.

Moral relativism is an argument in nth degree-ism.  It's not a blueprint for society.

Here's some reading of you're interested.

http://kidswithoutgod.com/teens/ask/where-do-atheists-get-their-morality/
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/
https://www.thoughtco.com/can-godless-atheists-have-moral-values-248089
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality

With regards to your conversion at a later stage in life that's all well and good but is more the exception than the rule.  The vast majority of religious people would be born into it not coming at it with an open mind.  Very, very few people would investigate, research and try different religions before settling on one.

Hi how are you? 

We too are becoming very accepting to a large extent of science. In other words, our religion seems to be changing its doctrines, and we are not so fundamentalist in outlook. For example, evolution seems to be the big one here. It's even taught in our schools whereas other religions probably wouldn't do that. 

But we are also the scorn of other Christian religions. For example, other Christians equate our iconography and icons as idolatry and as a sin. We have been practising this since pretty much immediately after the crucifixion. 

I use to be Atheist for about 10 years. Or is it Agnostic? The truth is, I wasn't too sure what I was or what I believed in, but was probably rebelling against the establishment as all teenagers and young adults do. I would however still go to Church out of respect for the family. It's an important factor in our culture. I was never a regular however, nor would I understand much about any scripture or about my religion. It was never force fed upon anyone as some seem to imply. It's about free will. If you are weak today, tomorrow you may be strong and seek to learn. It was the best thing I did, because it's actually very gripping and beautiful. Everything about it is just wonderful. 

I had an important shift when I went back on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and Sinai. Went and stayed at some Monasteries and gained a spiritual father who knew very well of my lack of faith. So I started to read and learn about it more and more. Then I went on another pilgrimage at Mount Athos in Greece and stayed at 3 monasteries there for about 10 days and lived the monastic life. Experienced a number of things and of course, gradually, I started to find a very deep respect for my faith and I started to believe again. And I witnessed a number of beautiful things, which if I explain here, people will just think I am crazy and some voodoo worshipper or making it up.

I think however, people are over estimating the impact of child baptism. I, as are all Orthodox, was baptised into the Orthodox Faith as an infant. It is a deeply conservative and high ritualistic faith. But, that doesn't automatically make you an Orthodox Christian apart from the Baptism paperwork perhaps issued by the Archdiocese. Most people are what you would call quite blaze about it, but probably believe but have little knowledge. Some are perhaps Atheistic or Agnostic like I maybe was. But all who are strict practising Orthodox Christians (like I am now later in life), have studied it and have a thirst for knowledge because it's actually nourishing, very intellectual stuff, high in philosophy and extremely liberating as well as character building. Ours is a very rich religion that is some 2000 years old, and we have changed very little since 2000 years ago. 

So I am a Christian and have regained my faith and go to Church as often as I can now. I find our chants nourishing and relaxing. It sooths my soul. And I firmly believe in the existence of God but that was the case always. So I was pretty much baptized at birth, grew up to be a respectful Atheist to not offend the family, and then found myself on 2 pilgrimages. I have been on a total of 5 pilgrimages now. I regularly speak with my spiritual father (via Facebook) about my problems and even confess all the shitty stuff I do, and he generally provides my with some verses to read and prayer. And I do love him like my Father. If I lose him, it will be like losing my Dad. 

And I consider my religion the biggest and best gift I can provide to mu children. It will always be there for them, even if they do flounder at different stages in life. And they seem to be lapping it up to, so better than I ever was. But they are young so it's a wait and see on that score. 

My experience with Atheism however, is that most don't look into it very much other than superficially. Whereas, I have always enjoyed Philosophy, which I take you do as well from what I can gather. 

I am also a very educated individual and work as a professional. I have a scientific background. 

Thanks mate.
P.S. Just to make clear, when I say there is no objective morality without God, I'm not saying atheists don't have any morals (and so am not saying I would expect you to go rape or murder because you don't believe in God). I think this is where there is a lot of misunderstanding.

I see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated.

-PB

Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. 

Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. 

Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. 

It's actually a very interesting conversation. Probably one of the best we have had around here for a while.

But not everyone's cup of tea. For those, they are free to opt out of course and not participate or even read. It's a free world, with freedom of thought and freedom to do and be whatever you desire. 

What you don't find interesting, might not be the case for the next person who would be completely opposite to you. 

But you got to admit. This thread has raised some pertinent facts. A few weeks ago, everyone was on the "let's hang the cardinal bandwagon". Everyone was talking about him enjoying a steak and a beer. Mocking him for not coming to face the music.

Well, now that he is here, everyone is back-peddling a million miles per hour. Doesn't seem to be the actions of a guilty man now does it?

I'm just commenting on my observations as I see them. I'm just the messenger bringing the craziness and hypocrisy to the fore. I know many don't like it, but I can't change the facts. 

Lol, Christians have been whining about the "war on Christmas" for as long as I can remember. Muslims don't shut the fuck up about people disrespecting their faith. Religious people are the most precious people in existence.

As to your second point:

> God is all knowing and omnipotent
> Gives children incurable bone cancer

Reconcile this.

I'm eagerly awaiting some non-sequitur about how I haven't studied philosophy or some rubbish. Or the standard response: god works in mysterious ways that is beyond our understanding, so that's why 3 year olds get cancer. 

Gimme a break.

I don't think so. Christians have been taking it for a very long time, and if anything, just will not engage. But the toxicity is escalating.

You say we are precious. But do you really believe we are more precious than let's say, The Muslims or Atheists are? No of course we are not. Not even close. We don't bitch or whine. Who is doing all the whining? Who is concerned about Christian beliefs? Christians are not bothered with the beliefs of Atheists. Their business and their free will to do whatever they want. And that's even when we are told that our beliefs could be offensive...I mean seriously? Why would our beliefs be offensive and Islamic beliefs are not offensive? Can't you see the irony here? And if we are offensive as some seem to think we are, do we as Christians not have a right to BE OFFENDED at this intolerance? Of course we do. You are just blinded to not see it! 

I already told you all about the bad things that occur in this world. God will not stop wars, earthquakes or child cancer. But there is a very bright side to it all. A child who dies at birth or of cancer at a very young age is innocent. They are more fortunate than we are according to our beliefs. And you would want me to be 100% correct about that too, otherwise there is no end to evil or misery or human suffering. 

He won't help you get that Sports Car either, or win lotto, or become rich but we believe he will give you strength. How you define that is up to the individual. The meaning varies from person to person. It could mean confidence. It could mean the strength to lead a good life. It could mean strength to face up to cancer even and that awful gruesome death that awaits you. It could be comfort and love and the power derived from that. It could mean strength to face up to the cross you must bear in life. Everyone has a cross to bear, even His Son Jesus Christ for who he didn't make his omnipotence known or click his fingers to end his own flesh the suffering and indignity of torture, pain and one of the most gruesome deaths known to man. Maybe that should put babies dieing with cancer in a bit more context. for you rather than your illogical rant which you bestow upon the faithful. God, did not intervene in the gruesome death of His own flesh (his Son Jesus Christ).

But, according to our beliefs, Jesus Christ and all the babies taken to an early and also gruesome death because of Cancer or some other terrible disease, are sitting beside him right now as little angels. 

And btw, "God works in m mysterious ways" isn't a standard response nor is it part of our thesis or scripture. We believe that God has given everyone free will to exercise their lives as they wish. Capable of Good and Evil. The existence of evil isn't proof of his non-existence, but rather the opposite. 

He will not end poverty, or the all the world's ills or wars or disease. But he will take care of His people when the time comes, even after death. It's much easier for a poor man to enter Heaven through the eye of a sewing needle than it is a Rich person. Jesus was one of the poorest people during his time. A regular hypster if you will. 

You see! Our beliefs aren't as illogical as you seem to think. 

It's a pretty fake world out there. You look at the reverence given to the very wealthy raising millions for charity. 

But how charitable are they with all their monetary wealth. Are they more charitable than you or me? Are they more charitable because they raised millions and sent a press release as well to promote their exposure? Is their charity altruistic? Is it genuine? It may be. But for most it probably isn't. But they get the accolades from this fake world.

Now what about the unsung volunteer, or the poor homeless man that bought his homeless mate a meal and a blanket? The nurses, and working class charity volunteers. 

The homeless man's ten bucks of charity is worth a whole lot more than some charity fundraising event for the rich and famous. Also altruistic and not some publicity stunt. 

If the  world's rich and famous were so concerned, why don't they just humbly cut a cheque and be done with it. Because it isn't about charity but political mileage. But hey, at least money is going to charity I guess, even though it may be for the wrong non-altruistic reasons. It still could go a long way to alleviate someone's pain somewhere. 

So the role of god is to give us strength to deal with the problems that he himself bestowed upon us? 

No not exactly. That isn't his role. 

His role is a lot more important than that. Yes he loves us. Probably give us all strength too and help us in little ways. 

But his role is to rule the universe and the heavens, and fight the final war. He will be a part of the final war humankind will ever see. A war no one has ever seen before, and which will kill most people on the planet. 

And he will even have His own Army. 

It sounds terrible doesn't it. It sounds awful. And it will be terrible and awful. People will see the power of evil and the power of good. It will be the most epic and gruesome battle ever to hit us.

And then there will be peace. 

Yes well you need to do some reading.

Christians are very clear about his so called ROLE. 

His role is a lot more important than that. Yes he loves us. Probably give us all strength too and help us in little ways. 

But his role is to rule the universe and the heavens, and fight the final war. He will be a part of the final war humankind will ever see. A war no one has ever seen before, and which will kill most people on the planet. 

And he will even have His own Army. 

It sounds terrible doesn't it. It sounds awful. And it will be terrible and awful. People will see the power of evil and the power of good. It will be the most epic and gruesome battle ever to hit us.

And then there will be peace. 

It has been written and there have been movies made about it too. And this war has been going since the beginning of time, but on His plane. According to the prophecy, these forces will metamorphose into a human form on earth and the entire world will descend in the war of all ages.

Something to look forward to....

Religion is a bandwagon..... You indoctrinate your children to follow your way of life. They have no way of thinking their own way through spirituality.

Religion is always illogical when analysed without bias. It's the nature of faith which is completely unscientific. I had numerous debates about the logic behind religion and it goes around in circles. It's easier to see religion for what it is, faith basic logic. Not to be confused with the dictionary definition of logic.

When it comes to flaws, miracles are a bad start when it comes to explaining logic pillars of your faith. I say faith because faith transcends logic for most. If that's your deal embrace it.

No it's not. Religion is a tradition based on historical fact.

We do not indoctrinate anyone. Everyone has their free will to think about their pathway through life. Nothing was EVER rammed down my throat. And I already explained that I went through different phases in life to reach to the point of where I am now. So I know how an Atheist/Agnostic thinks. They way in which they are flawed and ignorant, and even illogical. I know all the arguments. Arguments such as Religion is there to explain the unexplainable and to get Man to pass their fear of Death.

Fact is though, our God will bring Fire and Death to earth in a grand showdown with evil. Hardly of any comfort to the fearful now is it? 

And what is illogical is your attitude for thinking we are illogical about our spiritual beliefs. Despite the fact that you in fact must have some kind of spiritual belief in  God in order to be a Free Mason. So again, please tell me why we are illogical and you not. 

When it comes to spiritual beliefs, there are many real life experiences and interactions with the spiritual or the unexplained metaphysical world if you seek it. I was once an Atheist, but had a very open mind, searched for the answers and found them in far away places. And I had a blast doing it too. 

Historical fact.... hahahahaha. Of course its indoctrination. I'd wager 99% of parents would teach their kids about their own religion before they are of an age that they can pick for themselves.

Fearful of God? No I am not afraid of a sadist.

Freemasonry doesn't require belief in God but belief in a higher power. I don't believe in sadists who get upset if you make graven images of them.

Real life interactions never stack up. It's like saying I had a real life interaction with a unicorn in a dream so they must be real.

Good stuff

Bloke A has experience that Science cant verify.  

Trys to pick an arguement with Bloke B who worships Science

Being able to make scientific observations is not worshipping science champ.