Over the past few seasons I have noted with interest (but not much) others' passionate cries for promotion and relegation. I put it down to a simple agenda of fans from the NPL or various state-based leagues wanting their teams in The A-league. Good luck to that, but I'm happy with the Roar's guaranteed place in the upper tier.
But this season something happened. For a change, I've found myself watching my team at the wrong end of the table and playing badly, and strangle I've been not really caring much about the result. In fact, I've even found myself thinking, at least if we lose something might change.
Then Friday night I watched my team play poorly, get gifted 3 goals and win the game. And I didn't even feel that good. This got me thinking, if relegation was in play, I would have been feeling all the emotions of excitement and relief at my side getting a result and easing relegation concerns, and then next week I'd be nervous again about whether we could get a result.
This game is all about emotions and I'm now a firm believer that relegation is an essential part of the whole football equation.
I'd be interested to hear the views of those whose teams have been in similar positions.

I have been losing interest in the A-League for a while now, same 10 teams, same commentators, same journeymen and the same old shit from the FFA. 

With no relegation like you said when your team ie Brisbane is playing like crap you kind of switch off and don't care that much because what is the worse that could happen, wooden spoon but back for next season. With relegation it gives you a reason to care because even though your team is playing like crap, you may even hate some players or the coach but you still don't wan't to see your team relegated which in turns brings out more emotion for every game in the season.

Exactly, relegation is what gives meaning and interest to the lower end of the table in which sports which don't have this system then have a void of boring and useless games where teams and fans don't care if they win or lose. P and R is one of the best things about football and it is a shame that there is no progress towards this from the FFA.

I do understand the worry of what might happen to the club if they get relegated but there are ways to help ensure the club doesn't face financial doom as seen all around the world.

we definitely do need it, as lots of others are saying, its almost the same teams finishing in almost the same positions every season, it is starting to get a bit dull

Relegation in a 10 team competition is nonsense in my view especially in a salary capped league.  Get a couple of your imports wrong and/or get a major injury and your season is gone.  Its much less likely to be an issue though in a 16 team or larger comp.

I’ve been a big supporter of P&R for a decade+

But it’s only part of the answer - left to its own devices p/r will convert the national competition into an eastern seaboard competition, possibly even a NSW/Victoria comoetition.

If anyone thinks teams outside of those states can compete commercially and therefore in the pitch they’re fooling themselves.

But p/r is a must but before we get there we have to expand the A League to 16-18 teams, and yes they should be geographically dispersed but there’s no reason why the expanding clubs can’t be from existing clubs, we need a national second division, we need investment into second tier clubs - the same investment other codes see as routine but we just don’t get - and we need a viable commercial model that protects both teams going up and coming down.

p/r is the key to this codes success but it needs proper thought which the ffa ain’t ordinates to give it.

Expansion
Second division
Pro/rel

Etc etc etc etc etc

If the talent is in NSW and Vic then so be it. 

But I assure you it won't turn into a two state affair. 

Also welcome to the NWO :)

Expansion and a 2nd division needs to come first, nobody has asked for relegatiom to come in immediately, the frustration comes from the fact that our federation laughs it off at every opportunity. So it's not the fact we don't have it yet, but more so the complete lack of desire to see it ever which is irritating, made even worse when it's hidden behind stuff like " but but the efniks will come back"

Reminds me of something bozza said last Christmas when he was doing his end of year Australian football review when he said we are only going at about 25% of our capacity as a sport, and mentioned all the things our game lacks.

Never mind the bottom half of the table. even the top of the table clashes like last nights don't seem to mean anything anymore. Tv viewership backs that up.

Looking forward to victory notching up its first win of the season tonight 7 games into the season and storming into the finals places!

What a league lol

but what if it does?

the rest of the states better pick up their game then

@ The Select Few

“I assure you it won’t turn into a two state comp”. Really? What assurances can you give?

I’d also question where you live and your experience with football in states outside of NSW and Victoria?

I know Brisbane and WA the best - QLD for example won’t be able to put up one team with the facilities to compete in a second division, most of the best teams play on nothing better than public parks. My understanding is that is not the case in the dourthern states?

So with this lack of local infrastructure and shortage of corporate dollar all the QLD sides would struggle to compete with NSW/VIC teams in Div 2 and just won’t get promoted, ever; in fact a Div2 is likely to be dominated by the two states as well over time.

So despite your assurances the most likely scenario is those two states will dominate a second division and thus promotion. Over time this will lead to a two state comp.

Over even more time the non NSW/Vic teams will weaken further, including the sides that get relegated, and the effect will be a two state comp.

That’s unless we get some government funding into football infrastructure - if Strikers, B/City and Western Pride All has 10k stadiums similar to Dolphins RL at Redlands, a stadium government money built, then they stand a chance. But today, drawing crowds of less than 200, they’ve no chance.

I’d say all the other states would be in the same position. Which is why we need a plan to make this work.

We all know what the likely outcome is going to be, we know from the experiences overseas.  Madrid and Barcelona dominate La Liga, the richer north italian cities dominate Serie A, the bigger cities dominate the Eredivisie,  in all likelihood, the the bigger cities of Sydney and Melbourne will end up dominating the A-League once it's completely opened up.

The bigger cities already dominate the A-league as it stands - 9 out of 12 of the winners of the A-league come from 3 clubs, all of whom exist in the biggest 3 cities of Australia.

If Victoria and NSW together constitute over half the total economy and population of Australia, doesn't it make sense that they'll dominate the second division? Besides, if teams from Brisbane and Adelaide and Perth and regional areas want to compete, then they'll need to invest and improve - which is precisely the point of introducing a second-tier and eventually pro-rel.

Thats because your team, coach and owners are a joke and you are resigned to not even getting close to ending up champions.  If there was a chance, you'd think differently.

Even if it does work out like that, it means that we can effectively introduce a top down method. 

Strange, I seem to remember Sydney fans saying the league was stale even after they won the double. 

@433

I’ve no problem personally with any state dominating, the competition to dominate is exactly what is needed.

My point is this, there will be no competition to dominate - QLD clubs have no infrastructure to speak of and I bet most other states are the same (just think what you’ve seen in the FFA Cup ganes)

Comparisons with overseas leagues come up all the time when discussing p/r but they miss a point - infrastructure is in place in other areas in those countries. Real Madrid’s local competitors don’t play on a public park, they have a stadium at be it a modest one.

The gap in infrastructure in this country is frightening. That gap can and should be closed that’s all.

It doesn't have to be a NSW and Vic competition, Adelaide City, Brisbane City/Lions,,Canberra and Tassie want in too.

@Soccerfoo

Under p/r it doesn’t matter what a club wants it matters whether they can survive and thrive. Few clubs outside of NSW/Vic have the facilities, support and corporate dollar to compete with sides from NSW/Vic (Canberra may be the exception).

So if something isnt done to help these areas (and to be fair improve the NSW/Vic teams as well) then they don’t compete and subsequently we will have a two state competition.

The UK had the Football Grounds Improvement Trust post Hillsboro and mid the football foundation

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Foundation

We need something similar to invest in community clubs

I've been deeply invested in supporting the mariners for the last few seasons, probably more-so than ever. Even though those seasons have been our worst ever. 

P & R might have made me interested for different reasons, but would not have drastically changed my overall interest levels or the amount of money/time invested in supporting them.

Not trying to disregard your experiences or opinions. But yeah, to me i'm still very engaged in the A-league as a product and am quite happy to wait for a future sustainable second division, whenever that may be. Not concerned about promotion or relegation for the moment personally.

I grew up when Adelaide City was the defacto national team. Eastern seaboard competition? Dream on. Makes as much sense as saying don't have the EPL, every winner will be from London.

You're right. I can't make assurances. It'll be totally unpredictable. 

@HighTimes. It's great that you have supported Mariners through the tough times, and don't get me wrong, I'll still be there every week supporting mg team. It's not that I'm less 'interested' more that I'm less emotionally engaged.

Discussion on this topic will be interesting if MV stay in their current ladder position until season's end.

I was thinking this earlier and its such a frustrating counter argument, as one would assume the salary cap would be removed with the opening of the tiers and in that case it becomes more about squad building than squad management.

There is no way anyone of Melbourne City, Sydney FC, Victory, Wanderers, Jets, Roar and maybe Perth gets relegated in an open league.

@ Bohemia

Adelaide City competed in a competition that didn’t have pro/rel and had a preselected geographic representation of teams. So that hardly supports your point nor challenges mine.

You’re next comment about not having the EPL is classic BS being introduced whenever p/r is discussed. England has 100+ professional teams, the top tier averages 30k crowds, second tier 18k, third tier 7,500, fourth tier gets 5,000, 6th tier/non league gets about 2,000.

Australia gets 12.5k for the HAL and then averages less than 200 for NPL. How is that even comparable?

And of those 100+ clubs in England I’m pretty sure they all have a stadium. Most NPL clubs don’t have a stadium. So again it’s not comparable

(the EPL wouldn’t have relegation if the next tier down was a bunch of clubs playing on parkland).

This debate is getting tiresome - we need better facilities, that’s what I’m saying, at least in QLD. If we don’t then our teams can’t and don’t compete

Big assumption to make, the NPL's have wages restrictions as well as the A-League. MV made a loss last season, how is lifting the salary cap going to help them if the money is not there to spend. Roar and Jets have had plenty of financial issues and may very well have them again.

Players under the age of 21 will hardly ever be played unless they are wonderkids in the top division if pro/rel was introduced.