This is purely for discussion, I am not saying I support this concept, merely saying it’s an alternative.

Lets make a general motherhood statement we all want a second division, we all want an independent Hal run by the clubs, with P & R. Lets further assume everyone involved in Football wants this.

So we are looking at a 32 team competition, over Div 1 & Div 2 with P & R, with most teams having FSS [new word FSS means Football Specific Stadiums].

Timing seems to be the issue with money and revenue greatly effecting timing.

On Sunday afternoon, I was at a BBQ, with some expats working in both Singapore & Malaysia. The topic of the Tony Sage idea of incorporating, Singapore, Malaysia & Indonesia into the A-league with a team each.

I was totally against this idea when floated, and still em. However what these guys said did make me think.

The revenue from such an arrangement, all three countries are Football strongholds, all three countries watch Football, and all three countries have money to spend. Our back of the envelope figures would have a media deal well in excess of any code in Australia. Equally sponsors would be on the whole much larger.

The P & R, is a real head banger, our solution was the last 2 drop and each country replace teams dropped with teams from their second division.

So so so many issues, however it would provide revenue we may not see for years into the future, and would be a huge lever with government re FSS, and almost impossible to ignore by the media.

I can also see many many many issues and we have the Super Rugby as an example where this type of model can go horribly wrong.

I guess the question is, does the increase in revenue and other expected advantages out weight having a totally Australian league.

So over some lovely Hunter Reds, and some lovely food and fine company, we not only solved the world’s major problems we discussed the merits on Tony Sage’s SE Asia concept, putting it out for thoughts, mainly because of the revenue, & government influence it could bring.

Mid, an interesting proposal, but I would not like to see a hybrid league like that and would much rather see an all Australian league.
We could easily have 16-24 fully professional teams across 2-3 divisions with every player being adequately paid to play football.
As many people have said, we are not unique.
The only thing holding us back is the NPL clubs.
When they get serious, we can achieve a great league without having to bring in overseas clubs.

Mark

I am currently looking at Football in Australia and doing some research with the view to writing something about expansion P & R etc.

What I have found to date is a full FIFA model encompassing multi divisions is not feasible into the foreseeable future, but a 32 team or their abouts two division with P & R between them is  possible in a reasonable time-frame.

Also I think the """We are not unique""" and """ We are unique""" is over played by both sides... 

Yes it could make more money but we already compromise nearly everything in this league for the sake of more money and it hasn't made this league any better.

For alternates - Expansion - Promotion/Relegation:
 Could sponsorship and TV deal fund 2 pro tiers in Australia?
If Not:
Could sponsorship and TV deal fund 14 pro teams (14 just because it fills Fri_Sun TV slots)
If so: 
Could sponsorship and TV deal fund 14 pro teams with P/R and a relegation fund so relegation teams could hold players on pro deals for 12 mths.(As in EPL)
If the fund could not be set up your 2nd tier will never work.
 

I don’t know why people say a “full FIFA model is not possible” when it clearly is. What research could possibly say it isn’t when the “fifa model” has so many variables from a fully amateur league (therefore lower cost) to a more expensive fully professional set up?

Right now our major problem is the administration of the game in Australia, the FFA have fucked this up right royally although - without another public enquiry - we’ve no idea how record revenues from tv, FIFA, sponsorship, crowds, and participation isn’t enough to keep the game moving forward so let’s make a sweeping assumption - even if this model worked, our administrators would find some way to fuck it up.

Change must start at the FFA but presumably Lowy has found another way to fool FIFA and stall the latest process, so any model, ANY, is doomed to failure.

It’s nice to fantasise but there’s no fucking way this will ever happen. Might as all throw in some Middle East leagues to leverage the oil money, and India and China for their massive market potential yada yada. In fact a premise like this could work, they could call it the Asian Champions League or something.

step 1 - expand to 12 
step 2 -  expand to 20 by introducing the notion of champions spots and give the spots directly to the 8 state champs of the previous season to start off and then have 8 up/down P/R 
- broadcasters will love it as it will make all games meaningful and guarantee a team in all major markets every season
- dramatically encourages investment in the NPL clubs and comps by making them high stakes rather then "teiring" them down
- fans love it as it refreshes the product each season
  

I could copy and drop my post in the "Strikers pull out" thread.  I predict all you will get here is lots of anti-FFA bullshit coupled with P&R rants out the arse.  Good luck though!

The thing that always bothers me about proposals like this is people only think of the potential dollar signs in Asia, and not about any negative repurcussions.

Bottom line is - will people watch Sydney FC play Singapore FC? I suspect nobody will. In fact I think it has the potential to detract from our league because real football fans want us to have the strongest Australian only competition that we can.

The closest comparison we have to Australian domestic teams playing in an “international” competition is Super Rugby. Lo and behold, nobody turns up to see The Waratahs play some random team from South Africa, and only a few will turn up to see us play a New Zealand team. I’m not convinced that the model works at all.

The actions we can take immediately is remove the cap so the league can have the biggest Australian clubs and drive the value of the league upwards. Fans will be given what every single popularity metric suggests they want

We can also replace the youth league with a low cost semi professional second tier. And since there will be little gap between team 12 and the top team in the second division there is no reason why one cant replace the other

Everything else is a dream until we have seen the potential our game can achieve and take an adaptable approach. We a looking for a final landscaping quote when we haven't even purchased the block of land

indeed, but we need to dramatically encourages investment in the existing clubs and comps below to get the clubs we need to fulfill a 2nd div because the existing bidders as teh franchisees are as believable/credible as  the FFA)  and you don't do that by teiring them down

People need to read that quote from the Strikers on pulling their bid.  It gives the very best impression yet of what the existing 9 Australian clubs think about expansion.

We don't talk about it very often on this board, mainly because we don't know for sure what they really think, but that quote fills in a lot of gaps.

Don't take it as the gospel truth that the 9 Australian clubs want to do things differently to the FFA.  For them, it's purely about controlling 100% of the A-League's revenue, and they don't appear to be in a mood to share that revenue with 2, 4 or 6 new clubs.

the APFCA told the FFA to get fucked on the afternoon they announced it 

We can't immediately remove the cap because it is tied in with agreements with the clubs and the PFA.  Removing it would be a matter of negotiation between the three parties.

As I pointed out the youth league has a very important role and should be expanded rather than replaced.  It serves a different purpose to a 2nd division and has no financial tie with it so both can happen at the same time depending on the ability of the different clubs to fund their participation in one of the two leagues.

So true.
For information from various articles
TV deal is listed as $346m over 6 years ($57.7 pa)
10 clubs get a total of $28.5m pa ($2.85m pa which is an increase of $250,000).
I have heard that airfares are paid out of a central fund.
Gallop gets $1.2m pa for doing?
That leaves $28m pa for national teams and staffing at FFA (including useless A-League referees). 
The FFA gets a $5m bonus from Fox if the expansion teams come from Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne. Not sure if that is one-off or annual.

If removing it is a matter of negotiation then it can be removed immediately. Not sure which clubs will vote to keep it when it wont force them to spend more. Also not sure why the PFA would vote to limit what players can earn

As for the youth league, it doesn't have to be national. Why send players from Perth all over the country just to play against players of a similar age bracket?

Clubs should have teams from u12s all the way up in the various state leagues. They don't need to field a national team when the average cost is said to be $400k a year

Unfortunately asian teams in an Australian competition will never work.
I used to think otherwise.But all the evidence now shows it's a complete waste of time.
Why?.......Look at Wellington Phoenix,Super Rugby and ACL for a start.
It 's so very clear fans of any sport are nationalistic.Unless you are looking at elite teams from another country fans only want to watch their team and maybe an underdog team from their country.
Nobody in Australia wants to watch non Australian teams play other non Australian teams.It gets worse if the Australian teams become the weak teams as in Super Rugby.
We already have an asian competition in which Australian teams compete.Nobody attends or watches these games in Australia.Yet we are playing the Asian elite teams.Imagine playing Singapore clubx or Malaysia club Z.
Brisbane played a Philippines club side and lost in the ACL.That did nothing but bad things for Australian football.

The real way to improve Australian football and generate interest is to

1.Set up a 2nd Division.
2.Set up clear critieria for teams to be allowed entry to a second division.
3.Call for expressions of interest.
4.Select teams for the second division,with a major priority being A boutique stadium and clear fan engagement minimum standards,regardless of region size.
5The big carrot....The Premiers of the 2nd division are promoted to the HAL.
6.Repeat step 5 for 6 years.

7.No free ride into the HAL by way of a bag of money and a fishing licence.Only from the 2nd Div can you get in.
8.Relegation from the HAL,when there are 16 teams.
8.Independence for HAL and 2nd Div.

I think playing SE Asian countries in a mini tournament would be the best bet to raise some extra funds ... in the end the main market for such games would be in countries like Singapore, etc., but not Australia. So A-League clubs could be invited to tournaments in these countries as part of their pre-season (which is so long already ... many times international clubs attend such tournaments too ... so might be a good chance for locals to get scouted).

I personally think if Sage wants to take advantage of Asia his best bet is to put a Perth team in the Indonesian League. I am surprised a Darwin based side hasn't tried to get into the Indonesian League ... I think they'd have more chance of getting a team in their then the A-League ever.

Rubbish.
We don't need a semi pro second level, we already have that. What we need is a fully professional second level where players are paid to train and play full time. That's how players will improve and the overall standard will improve.
That can happen today if the NPL clubs get off their arses and do it.

Thats were I sit as well 

Waz

A full FIFA model would have 4 to 5 divisions all operating on P & R.

So at 4 thats 64 professional teams at 5 its 70 professional teams. With all teams capable of moving to Div 1.

As I see it that's near impossible.... whereas 32 professional sides clearly is for all the reasons you point out

@ Midfielder

A FIFA model does not have to have fully professional clubs.

Many countries operate a FIFA model with part-timers operating in with the professional clubs. It’s entirely possible that the HAL could be professional, Div 2 a mix of pro and semi-pro clubs, and div 3+ semi-pro (that’s the NPL today).

And we already have four divisions, HAL, NPL1, NPL2, then a State/Capital League. Some states go down to 10+ divisions.

It’s important (for me) that we stop putting artificial barriers in the way of clubs. Open up the pyramid and let clubs figure out what they want to do.

E.g. Lions FC have 22,000 members, facilities most HAL clubs would die for, and annual revenues similar to Mariners - why shouldn’t they have a pathway upwards?

I like how you include a one line summary of your posts so people don't have to keep reading

The NPL is a knock out tournament. There is no consolidated second tier of the next best talent playing against one another. It is split across 90 teams and a number of leagues

A second tier doesn't have to be professional from day 1 in the same way the A League didn't need a $50m TV deal from day 1. It can only grow once it has been established, and it can never be established as fully professional

No sense blaming NPL clubs for their inability to do something no sport in this country has been able to achieve to date - a fully professional and self funded second tier

Waz

I think we agree on about 90% of stuff ... we disagree on the extent and degree ... of how timing and implementation can work.

IMO very very very humble opinion we need to create the structure and systems  and determine whats needed to be considered.... there is no way we can be ready quickly even those running and representing the 110 NPL clubs have said the earliest is 2024 and that's even too soon they think.... 

Creating the structure especially if we have created a workable 1 tier competition is important... thats arguably the most important reason we need to go to 16 teams and independently owned clubs and league.

crimsoncrusoe wrote:

The real way to improve Australian football and generate interest is to 
1.Set up a 2nd Division.
2.Set up clear critieria for teams to be allowed entry to a second division.
3.Call for expressions of interest.
4.Select teams for the second division,with a major priority being A boutique stadium and clear fan engagement minimum standards,regardless of region size.
5The big carrot....The Premiers of the 2nd division are promoted to the HAL.
6.Repeat step 5 for 6 years.
7.No free ride into the HAL by way of a bag of money and a fishing licence.Only from the 2nd Div can you get in.
8.Relegation from the HAL,when there are 16 teams.
8.Independence for HAL and 2nd Div. 

Pretty much this.  Hard to fault the logic here.  

The thing I would fault is the boutique stadium which seems to be a common demand for clubs going forward

If clubs don't want to support existing region infrastructure then they can kiss goodbye any government funding or community buy in, and there goes their chance to even launch a successful bid

How a game looks on TV comes second

You may not be able to see why but the FFA, clubs and the players entered into agreements so they obviously saw advantages to them.  Maybe their views would be different now but until the agreements are renegotiated neither you nor I will know what system will be acceptable.  The agreements are up for negotiation next year I think.

The A-League clubs are required to have academies up and running by next year and most already do so they will all be running teams from U12 up in the NPL but that only gives them about 2/3 of the games they need per season for development.  Some might get picked up by 2nd division clubs when we have one but most of the 2nd div clubs will be running their own academies and have their own young players to sign.  The NYL may be able to be regionalised to reduce costs but the point is that an elite competition is required for the elite young players that need accelerated development before they are left to fend for themselves.  The point isn't to play against players of a similar age bracket it is to play against players of a similar age and standard so the NYL should see the best of the 16 to 20 year olds having an extra 4 months intensive training and playing in order to prepare them for a crack at the 'big time".

I guess it depends on what you want. If you want the standard of domestic football to improve immediately and dramatically, if you want long players to get a chance to make a living from football, if you want clubs to improve their administration dramatically in a cut throat environment, then a second tier DOES have to be professional from Day 1. That's what professionalism will bring.

If on the other hand you are philosophically wedded to an idealistic and romantic view of a 'football pyramid' and that's what you want to achieve, then of course you can be semi-professional. Of course we already had that at each State federation level prior to the introduction of the closed NPL's, and we didn't see that grow the game at state level to challenge the A League in a commercial sense. We also now see the semi pro NPL leagues who do have pro/rel between the two divisions still NOT challenging the A league commercially.

Many other nations have fully professional second/third and fourth divisions where all the players get paid and train and play full time. If our NPL clubs aren't savvy enough to get professional, it's time to get new blood in.

Mark

I think you have indirectly nailed a GROSS miss understanding between many posts who in fact want the identical outcome ... even follow the same pathway .. but see success in a different way.

We have as of now 110 NPL teams with maybe 20 or so showing a keen interest in moving to the A-League ... maybe up to 40 see themselves see themselves as part of a second division capable of moving to Div 1.

On top of this you have guessing maybe 8 outside NPL clubs bids seemingly cashed up also wanting to join the A-League.

For me personally I want a decent league with money to fund professional leagues both male and female, and support if needed national teams.

This will cost a mega amount, if we want to be competitive, if we want to run a low cost league then fine, but if we want both our first division and our national teams to be competitive we need lots and lots of money. This will principally come from broadcasters.... 

I guess it comes down to money, while lower divisions will attract capital from investors, and many existing lower division clubs do have semi professional operating budgets at the end of the day its what level people expect the divisions to be.

 Thats what got me thinking, not I repeat not yet supporting, Tony Sages idea of introducing very soon hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue by having a Singapore, Malaysia & Indonesia side in  an 18 team competition with 15 local domestic Australia sides in a 34 round competition. Assuming the Nix go that's an additional 6 sides within two years or a growth rate of 6 on 9 which is 66%.

I can see and understand what Sage is on about... still not supporting ... but it is worth a decent debate...