There is no longer a Tassie team in the VFL. The VFL is also fucked, and only surviving because of pressure put on Melbourne AFL clubs to maintain those alignments with VFL clubs which still exist.

Ah yes they dropped out but there is a development team in the TAC cup which is why i'd get a team in if possible. The AFL clubs actually need the VFL clubs because it's too expensive to operate their own reserves teams, $500k a year was the base figure being reported to run a reserves team.

Just a few thoughts.

Collingwood and Geelong already do. Essendon wants to and if not for their Tullamarine enterprise would push harder for it. Carlton is almost there with its destruction of Preston. St Kilda and Sandringham's alignment is on thin ice, as is Melbourne and Springvale's. There is only one unqualified success in this experiment, and that's between Hawthorn and Box Hill. More and more AFL clubs are getting to the point where they'd be happy to wear the costs of a reserves team if it means they have more control - its the authorities who are trying to make it harder to end this system.

Out of curiosity, in your opinion if your changes were made, what attendances would you be expecting to these new teams/competitions?

What's being discussed here is quite possibly the biggest threat to the success of australian football. It's not that most of the ideas here are totally wrong, in fact, i consider some of the proposed ideas very good and im sure it would benefit the league(s) in a way. But i'm convinced that one thing the aussie leagues dont need is change, and thats because of one thing you are all pointing out : an emotional connection to the club. Changing the league, club names, club logos or something even remotely related to the club will make it harder to 'connect' with the club. It takes time to get familiar with the things going on at the club, with the neighborhood the stadium is in etc.etc., by changing fundamentals of clubs like names and logos you will lose fanbase and it will take years to gain.

Anyway just to put everything in context, concerning attendances at league matches, give a look at the attendances scheme for the netherlands. In the dutch first division (so called "eerste divisie") the mean attendances go from 8500(willem II) down to 1200(almere). As much as 10 clubs aren't able to attract more than 2500 visitors on a regular basis. And here's the best part, we are talking about a FULL-PRO league.

If we start comparing the highest dutch semi-pro league to the state leagues, you notice that attendance figures in the dutch semi-pro leagues aren't higher than 900. The grand-final, which will win you a promotion to the national pro-league, attracted only 2700 visitors last year.

If you consider these figures one finds out that the aussie leagues arent that bad at all. The only change we should consider is actually already put forward by the topic-starter. We should get the state clubs to set up a good amateur branch to accomodate grassroots and junior football with the possibility to get into the first team without having to make a transfer to another club. This will make connecting to the club much easier as you've played for the club all your life. You've actually represented the club, wore the shirt, scored goals for the club, suffered defeats. Only that way, we can get a stronger state league.

Own goal kapow!

Arthur 2 Kapow! 0

In terms of development there has been murmurs that other AFL teams would like their own VFL teams but cost has prevented it or in WA and SA they knocked it back because they thought it would damage their competitions. My suggestions were not just development based rather getting each layer supporting the next. It’s common particularly in WA and SA but also in victoria to support a local and AFL team.


There's no evidence to support that. You can only really answer that when mechanisms which work in other sports are in place and have been given time to work. Logic suggests there’s no reason why they wouldn’t work. It would also be an highly usual occurrence if the diversity that is experienced at junior and a-league level in playing/supporting the game, wasn't replicated at state level should enough people experience it.



For starters i think the big teams wouldn't need merging, but for the competition, initially not at all it's a slower process at the secondary level, unless there is a bounce from areas currently unrepresented.

My main point is let’s be doing everything possible to improve. There appears to be obvious things which are not being done which are done in other sports. The only reasons i've heard so far not to do them is it would be concerning to existing supporters which is fair but they are small in number and football is 'unique', which isn't a reason.

I understand it wouldn’t be popular to a old supporter like yourself but at the same time i don’t think it would force those who really love to game to leave it and upside is we may actually grow the game at that level.



I'm not sure the relevance of the dutch league. All it shows is secondary leagues are harder to get support, we already knew that.

Changing things most certainly won't get everyone on board, however as logic suggests they should work in growing the game and the numbers currently are so small supportinging the league, then some change to improve things should be encouraged.

Kapow!, you're reasoning for making a change appears to be that attendances aren't high enough - but you don't appear to understand the point being made by others that attendances in lower league competitions are never high.

You suggest we should run the VPL along the same lines as the VFL model... I just had a quick look at wikipedia and found average VFL attendances being quoted at around 1-2,000 - this for a competition where the premier league gets average attendances of around 36,000... If those figures are correct then VPL attendances of 500-1,000 would be acceptable against A-League attendances of around 9,000. No?

Edited by Benjamin: 13/9/2011 09:46:59 PM

The vpl and vfl unfortunately face similar issues, both are 2nd tier comps that nobody really cares for, sure the vfl will attract a tiny bit more people because they have current afl/ex afl players (fevola) in it but the crowds are still fairly poor considering how popular the sport is at national level, the reality is even rival national sports struggle as well...anyone notice a half filled aami park watching the nrl finals om Sunday were 90,000+ were at the afl? anbsolutely nothing that can be done to reverse the current lack of interest at grassroots level.

The most unfortunate thing is that national level interest hasnt filtered down, thousands of people will go watch Victory/Heart during summer....but will not go anywhere near a soccer field in winter, weather thats because of the winter chill, lack of interest in anything that isnt top flight or just afl fans that time of year....these are all big factors....the vpl was more popular in the 90s because a lot of the nsl fans at the time also supported local clubs as well.

My criticism wasn’t specifically the crowds, although the grand final crowd drew my attention to it, my criticism was mechanisms which most other sports use to increase local support don't appear to be in place.

The VFL will always be a poorly supported competition in comparison to the AFL because of the over representation of victorian clubs in the AFL. WA and SA are stronger competitions.


They are similar in that they are secondary competitions, but the VPL is much more ideally positioned to be a stronger competition compared to the VFL imo. Summer v winter comp compared to winter v winter, there’s no excess of victorian teams in the a-league like there is in the AFL, no specialist junior competition in the a-league like the AFL has with the TAC cup. With the disjointed NSW system the VPL *could* be setup in a way that all the young players in Australia make it the league they want to play in to be noticed to get an a-league contract, this would get more a-league fans interested in looking at players who are the 'next big thing'.



The traditional communities many rely on are dwindling and little is being done to encourage bottom up or filtered down support, it's so obvious i'm not sure how we can complain.

But, but, errrr but, generally, you're the only one i see complaining. Over and over and over and over and over again.

Forgive me for removing most of what you've said and boiling it down to this... You've completely lost me - you're not complaining about the crowds, but you want to see a new system put in place to attract greater crowds?

It's called shifting the goalposts, Benjamin. He has his posts on wheels for fast and easy mobility. Keep the thread going long enough and the posts will go full circle, all the way back to the removal of nasty ethnics causing discomfort for Caucasian Australians, for the good of the game, Australia and future peace and goodwill among men around the globe. Actually the patriotism and thoughtfulness brings a tear to my eye.

Tissue, please?



Ahh! Thank you.

^ who rattled your cage?


The statement without your misinterpretation explains itself. The crowd for the gf drew my attention to it, but what *specifically concerns me* is the lack of mechanisms which other sports use to foster support. It's a shame you choose to act dumb rather than discuss the validity of the mechanisms suggested.

No, I still don't know what you are talking about. You complain that the clubs don't have mechanisms in place to attract support, but say that the level of support doesn't concern you. You suggest we follow similar systems to the VFL - despite the fact that VFL crowds are significantly larger than VPL crowds.

I don't know what you believe can be achieved by having a zonal club that no-one has any attachment to, rather than long standing clubs that at least have a core support - not huge support, but enough to keep the clubs viable.

People do not go to clubs because they are local. If they did, then in an 'Anglo' area like Croydon (my local) there would be plenty at the local (non-ethnic) club... Instead of 20 wives/girlfriends and a bloke walking his dog.

They go for the standard of play? Local clubs selling point is being local, closer to the players, cheaper drinks and food etc. I’m unsure why you think non-ethnic = strong local connection. Do they have the mechanicians i’m suggesting? No. It’s another strawman attempt by yourself.

Hey capow, good luck.

You are up against benjamin, the master of disguise, and at least 3 of his multis, Arthur, southmelb and sceptic.

He might be using more of his multis in this thread, because you are a formidable opponent and a real threat to his agenda, but I wouldn't know his latest multis because I don't come here as often anymore, thanks to this bastard.

One thing his multis have in common: They ALL support South Melbourne, but they don't speak greek, which "proves" South Melbourne is a "broad-based" club. Hilarious, isn't it?

Good luck with benjamin's puppett show capow. You need it mate. It will seem like you are arguing with many and you are being attacked by many, when in fact you are only arguing with one and you are only being attacked by one: the single puppet master, who never fucken sleeps and is always here ready to respond instantly to your posts.

Good luck with the bastard who never sleeps capow.

[size=7]We seek him here,we seek him there,
Those TOBs seek him everywhere!
Is he in heaven? Is he in hell?
Where is that damn elusive Benjamin Pimpernel!
He gives the TOBs nothing but frustration
Popping in and out each week!
Spoiling every lovely execution
LA! What cheek! [/size]


The Benjamin Pimpernell



Kai pollis oreos. (and translated from the common greek "and his very nice!" or "and what a guy")

Edited by Arthur: 17/9/2011 12:35:33 AM

I know the VPL can...
A) Reduce the number teams to 9
B) End P&R
C) Poach Adelaide City from SASL making the total number of teams to 10
D) Promote it self as "Australia's 2nd division" rather than "a teir below the A-League"
:p

Haha... Case closed then :lol:



Edited by Heart_fan: 17/9/2011 04:31:43 PM

You really are quite disturbed, aren't you?

I see it now, Benjamin is English and Arthur Daley is English = multi

We're onto something here :lol: :lol: :lol:

The real way to figure out which posters are my multis is far easier.

If anyone agrees with me, or disagrees with ton.of.bricks, then they are obviously ME.

I'm surprised you hadn't figured this out, Joffa. ;)

I didn't want to be seen to be agreeing with you, I find it hard enough to manage all of my multis let alone keep track of yours...;)

@Kapow

Your theories genuinely confuse me. You claim that supporter numbers aren't of major concern, but obsess over ways to improve supporter numbers/connection between clubs and supporters.

Your suggestions (original post) were as follows:



There's plenty of ideas in there on how to align the clubs to the A-League, but nothing (to me) that actually improves the current state of the game in Victoria.

Oh God, please don't agree with me... I couldn't handle being you.

Hey Benjamin, why do you even reply to and acknowledge that complete malaka!! He's just sad loser of the highest order.

Edited by smfc and proud: 18/9/2011 01:03:44 PM