Following a theory rather than a personal belief (I don't believe Heart should be out of the league, I personally believe they should represent something though), the argument is that the sustainability of an A-League franchise is tied heavily to how much they can earn (or to be more accurate, how little they can lose) when hosting fixtures.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the break-even figure for Heart is around 15,000 at AAMI. This suggests that a crowd of 7000 means they are losing something like $160,000 every time they play at home.

The idea behind South being a good option for the A-league is that even on the same crowds that Heart is getting (the magical 6,900 average), South would have covered stadium costs, and would therefore be around $2m/season better off than Heart on this basis alone.

The biggest threat to the A-League, as demonstrated at the tail end of last season, is that just one team failing can throw the entire competition into chaos - forcing the FFA to step in and self-finance a team. Wouldn't it be true to say that the competition is better off everytime we remove a financially vulnerable team and replace them with a financially stronger alternative (whether that be South, a new franchise, or a revised version of Heart with a stronger point of difference to Victory)?

Again, to be quite clear, I don't believe Heart should be out of the competition.

Hearts audience is by people who don't want to support Victory, right?

My observation is that those supporters attempt to prove that their club authentically deserves to be in the top-flight by providing examples of other traditional clubs that grew out of supporters defecting away from "club x", to form "club y".

The only difference with Heart is that although it probably is true that most of its supporters are Victory expats, the club was manufactured by the FFA to milk Melbourne of more supporters. That is where Melbourne Heart actually lacks its authenticity as a rival football club.

That it was "created" with commercial benefits in mind.

NUFCMVFC
Howay Newcastle
Join Date Jan 2007
Posts 8,064

From what I recall reading in a newspaper, the Club chairmen puit Sidwell as one of the main 3 Chairman running the Commission, so while he's in a position of importance, I can see him being willing to bankroll the club for a while

As far as profitability is concerned, much seems to depend on whether the extra TV cash to completely cover the salary cap (player payments) outweighs the increased cost once their sweetheart deal with AAMI Park/Swan Street ends (after 3 years I think Millberry mentioned, though people have often said it is two years?), I think I recall Millberry once saying it is about 12k to cover the ground hiring and another 6k (up to 18k) to cover player payments, so even assuming the increased TV cash covers the 6k they only need 12k to break even, but even getting just above half of that seems to be a challenge for them

Can't say I'm surprised, as football fans understand that football is half business and half sociolgoical entity, sociologically they don't represent anything distinctly different in terms of geographic or any other demographic (eg religious, socioeconomic etc), the idea of them as a grassroots club and MVFC being the big Corporate club doesen't fly, not only because they are sponsored by a bank of course, but because MVFC roped in many different forms of grassroots supporters from the outset who were willing to follow the A League, not many leftover from that. This is why from a business perspective Heart have no discernible "target market", hence the reason they keep jumping from "purist traditional club" one week and then literally merely weeks into the inaugural season of theirs offering special deals to members of some AFL clubs etc, then of course they don't have a Dutch technical director or anything, this whole sopisticated football approach goes out the window when Van Schip leaves

Big questions has to be asked of the FFA, no proper discernment here, they put Heart in because of an ill defined marketing logic that the Melbourne "market" is big enough for two teams, then they opted for the Heart franchise over an organic Melburnian entity which offers the only possible distinction to MVFC (which is the SMFC/Southern Cross outfit) pretty much because Frank Lowy probably has some old soccer issues with them and wants them to die or whatever

Fact is, Heart is an FFA Franchise lumped on Melbourne by people up on Sydney, Sidwell wanted it because he couldn't buy into MVFC (had his chance to buy the FFA's stake but didn't take it so no sympathy from me), but that's about it, no one from the Melburnian community was exactly calling out for this and there was no groundswell demand for a Franchise which is nothing more than a colour differentiation from MVFC.

Even if Beckham did come (and he won't, will probably choose PSG or Monaco), it changees nothing of the sociological fundamentals, which in turn will ultimately change nothing of the economic fundamentals and the fact it is simply unsustainable.

Perhaps the saddest thing of all is, as long as Heart is here (and there are political reasons for the FFA to subsidise their place - at least as long as Lowy's reign lasts), they are taking the place of and preventing a genuinely Melburnian entity that has spawned from the community from taking its place

How about this one Kracka?

The next pair of games I want to look at took place in 1994 at the same venue, involving teams from areas involved in territorial disputes in south east Europe, which had very different receptions, though as I will try to show, it was events off the pitch which gave them that. The first game I want to consider was a National Soccer League game on 6 March 1994 between South Melbourne (formerly South Melbourne Hellas) and Melbourne Knights (previously known as Melbourne Croatia) ended peacefully in a one-all draw. There was a crowd of 15,000, close to capacity at Middle Park, South Melbourne’s home ground for over 30 years, though it has now been displaced to the Lake Oval (the Bob Jane Stadium) to make way for the Grand Prix. After the game, as the crowds left the stadium, a scuffle among a small group of supporters broke out and an elderly fan was struck ‘by half a brick thrown into a crowd’.[75]

On the Monday headlines in the press included ‘Racial row spills on to soccer field’, (Geelong Advertiser), ‘Violence erupts after soccer match (Age), but the context was more clearly given in the Herald-Sun, which had ‘Kennett offer on feud’ above a colour photograph of the injured Alex Karamitros in an extensive report on page three.[76] The front page repeated the photograph in close-up under the heading ‘Fan felled, ten held in flare-up’, which put the focus back firmly on the soccer. The match, far from being the cause of inter-ethnic violence, was rather caught up in what had erupted over the previous months in large part as a result of political decisions made by the Federal government in Canberra and the State government in Victoria. The rumbles following the terms of the recognition of Macedonia as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia on the one hand and Mr Kennett’s apparent endorsement of the Greek position on the other came in the midst of, and helped to contribute to, rising tensions in the two communities in Melbourne. The Croatians had absolutely nothing to do with this in a political sense.

The soccer match however guaranteed a huge crowd as the two Melbourne teams vied for top spot in the NSL with an advantageous position in the play-offs at stake. The match was very exciting and could have been decided three minutes into injury time, but Australian skipper Paul Wade, of South Melbourne, fired a penalty kick wide of the goals. During the match, despite warnings from the soccer authorities to both teams and their fans, provocative banners were raised, very tentatively, by spectators. The Croatian youth flew Macedonian banners, while the Greeks, the Hellas Hooligans perhaps, had a Serbian flag on display albeit briefly. Both sets of younger supporters indulged in some fairly pointed chanting and there was a great deal of passionate support, but most of it directed at the result of the game. There was a stronger than usual police presence at the ground and virtually no trouble while the match was in progress.

From the MVFC fan forum one of the best commentaries I have read about the political aspects and the Sydneycentric attitude of the decision to give a second A-League Licence in Melbourne.

Absolutely brilliant assesment.

30 Nov 2003: South Melbourne 5 Kingz 0
Attendance: 5,000.

14 Oct 2012: MHFC 1 - Wellington 1
Attendance: 10,000.

I've got no idea who that is sorry.

Can SM effectively appeal to football purists like Heart?

ALL 4,500 of them?



Will SM have the same state of the art facilities as Heart?

Looks like you got me there.

Or this one:



Yep. Arms wide open for you guys.

Also. Non-mono-ethnic. Olol.

Incorrect

smfc will obviously have an attraction to its heritage which in Melbourne gen 1,2 and 3 Melbournians of greek heritage are now approaching 350 - 400k in a city of 4.5 million which is a telling figure and further compounds the strength of the smfc proposal

however this segment would be a base which is why I said 7k before $1 marketing dollar was even spent - however smfc would also attract other segments

for example, a little known fact is smfc has inherited a substantial stake within the MSAC presinct - where lakeside is situated (our home ground)- the culture is diverse as it is loyal with its partners and now represemts 1 of 2 world class sporting precincts in Melbourne of which smfc is an equal partner with the other sporting bodies such as the aquatic centre - the VIS and athletics - these are new comers to football and smfc is the carriage

this is recognised widely as our spiritual home and a more than generous lease for the next 40 years - the recyprical benefits with the other sporting bodies - their establishments and their members are fundamental

All this before any marketing spend to the general football public or potential fan

so what is the smfc proposal????

History - Culture - Location - Differentiation - Prosperity - Partnerships - Establishment and ofcourse diversity

Sorry Heart - this is not a bluff - you need to deliver or you are out - smfc is in a genuine position of strength



Edited by chris: 10/12/2012 01:18:16 AM

Edited by chris: 10/12/2012 01:20:00 AM

At least we agree it will be a mono-ethnic - because not withstanding all the platitudes above SMFC has attracted TOKEN support from other groups.
Its a Greek brand, plain and simple, and the clubs new proximity has done nothing to attract these NEW groups above you confidently predict will embrace the club.
You can spin all you like - there is zero possibility of attracting a diverse enough supporter base that will extinguish SMFC traditional Greek brand- which is the issue for FFA. If you understood marketing you would know the brand can't change. no more than Hyundai could more into a prestige car that could compete with BMW. Brand image is fixed and immutable once established for more than 20 years let alone 50 years as is the case with SMFC.
SMFC is suffering death by Irrelevance, and its existence is a inconsequential to the HAL, as Polonia, JUST, Hakoah were to the game when they stopped competing. Your effort to SPIN the facts are understandable but fail to grasp the reality - we have great admiration for the history of SMFC, but it's place is firmly in the past, not the HAL future.

SMFC is suffering death by Irrelevance, and its existence is a inconsequential to the HAL..............

For such an irrelevant and inconsequential club we always seem to do well on the 442 forum :lol:

Exactly, its second tier and a very shit one at that.

Here's hoping APL fixes many things.

-PB

Hey SMFC fanboys on here,

Please don't take a few pages of discussion on here as evidence that people actually think having your side in the HAL is a good idea. The vast majority of posts have made it clear why you should not be in the comp.

Its your own passion to troll that has got it this far, and no doubt you will continue to push your case to undermine the MH and anything else that goes against your agenda.

Thanks for your efforts anyway. They have been comical as always.

Hey SMFC fanboys on here,

30 Nov 2003: South Melbourne 5 Kingz 0
Attendance: 5,000.

14 Oct 2012: MHFC 1 - Wellington 1
Attendance: 10,000.

I never said there was anything wrong with your passion Arthur or that of Chris, Southmelb and others - I am just sadly stating the situation as I see it.

SMFC was all the things you said, but it also has the ingrained and entrenched roots that prevent it from being reinvented - and deep down supporters like yourself realize that you're between a hard rock and a hard place - success can only come if future support taps into this long successful Greek heritage but sadly this also the clubs greatest vulnerability.

I am strongly supportive of what the FFA is doing, it's the only way to grow and broaden the appeal of the game - SMFC's return in any guise is a backward step - the game can't stand still, it needs to evolve, and unfortunately SMFC is collateral damage.

Please do not mistake my position here as anti SMFC - I would be just as vocal if it's was any other ex NSL club with ethnic roots - I am just strongly for progress and the new FFA model.

The game must move forward.

There are more "SMFC fanboys" than Heart fans, it seems.

Quite interesting the South Melbourne Brand, I like how you see it as a purely "Greek Traditional Brand" with limited potential outside the Greek Community.

Of course historically started by Greek Migrants with the amalgamation of three Greek Clubs and One Domestic Club in SOuth Melbourne United in 1959.

The South Melbourne Brand means various things to the Greek Community, some don't give it the time of day or give it no relevance whar so ever, others see it as failing to represent the Greek Community, to others as only representing the Greek Community.

What I do know of the South Melbournes Brand amongst Those who played for and against South Melbourne is that SMFC is arrogant, successful,winners, stylish football, personalities. I know from those that started SMFC and have been involved with the CLub have always had the goal that the CLub plays at the highest level and wins at the highest level above all else, but winning titles was not enough on its own as winning had to be done with flair and style.
Even now in the VPL supporters of the other Clubs have never been happier to see SMFC not winning championships because they see us as arrogant.

I think the preparedness to adopt a new guise in the form of SOuthern Cross franchise (even though minimal involvement behind those investing millions) showed that willingness to be at the top level and to succeed at the top level.

For years supporters like myself had dreamed of being in a competition like the A-League that was well managed and marketed, in good stadiums with clubs that were well supported.
And that arrogance incapsulated in our Brand came through when we played Perth Glory or Adelaide United because everyone came to watch as they wanted to beat that arrogant club South Melbourne.

And I'm waiting for Kapow! to show up about now, then the gangs all here.


Edited by Arthur: 10/12/2012 03:03:15 PM

But by the sounds of it you want the club to just stand still, roll over and die? why shouldnt smfc look to broaden its appeal? the days of the smell of souvlaki in the air, peanuts tossed all around the venue and old men abbusing eachother in Greek are long gone, its almost 2013, the youth of the Greek community are now 2nd and 3rd generation and are more Aussie then Greek....the club cannot and will not operate as a 80/90s nsl club, im assuming you are Greek yourself and an ex South supporter, the reality is the landscape has changed for the sport in general as you have pointed out, but ao have the clubs, the South of today has no real connection to the South of the past or the one that you remember, it is what it is....change is inevitable.

4 types of people in this thread.

Heart Supporters: Denying that there is anything wrong with the current situation

Victory Supporters: Want Heart to fold, and support South Melbourne entering the A-League as a rival

South Melbourne Supporters: Want to enter the A-League and show the Heart how to run a football club

And Non Victorians: Old Socckah out of A-League! SMFC is Mono effniks, violence, etc! :lol: