Its struggled to be considered broadbased to this point, so those doubts are more than valid. Perception is the key, and changing that is a lot harder than starting from scratch on many occasions.

Overall, I would love to see a unified footballing landscape, but the nature of the sport has been all about division all along. I can't see that changing, as there is far too much self-interest in every move.



Edited by heart_fan: 21/1/2013 08:48:59 AM

Well said Jak, it is a principle that (without really trying to speak for them) Chris Benjamin and myself, have expoused from the first day that we registered on this forum.

Excluding South Melbourne or any Club, identified on the basis of being started by an immigrant group from the bidding process for an A-Licence, is discrimanatory and has groundings in legal recourse based on Australian Law. It is also against the Australian ethos of "A Fair Go".

In particular this situation is highlighted with the restricted nature of entry into the A-League (No direct promotion or relegation, which is the norm for Football around the world and historically so here to.)and the nature of the "Grass Roots" competitions which have restrictive covenants placed on the competition themselves and the participating clubs.
Though understandable on some issues still restrcitive in nature and one could argue discriminatory and anti-competitve if looked at as "Market" "Business" orientated view.

Any way the core issue is any club that meets the Licence requirements of the FFA to participate in the HAL, where the FFA calls for an open tender for said licence, the decision should be weighted on the basis of the application and forfilment of the obligations of the Licence agreement.

It's fine to have doubts and yes there are challenges, no-one is suggesting otherwise. But let's just see what they bring to the table, and not be so dismissive of a potential bid from them.

In my view (and note that I have zero affiliation with the club), a possible way forward for SMFC would be to corner the inner east/southeast of Melbourne (~1 million people), and become a club representing that particular area. They can then focus their marketing there, and engage the local schools and football clubs. They then become the club representing the inner south/southeast, which will also counteract the perception that they are primarily a Greek club. I wrote a post a few pages back about what I think Heart should do - the same applies here and to all clubs.

I would be genuinely interested to hear from SMFC supporters about what strategies they would implement.

That's all fine and dandy Jak, but look at the topic name. That's what these SMFC die-hards want; the demise of Melbourne Heart! If it was for example, "SMFC is a viable option as a third Melburnian team" then fine, but this Vendetta against Heart needs to stop! That's my issue with this topic.

I would urge you to focus on the actual discussion, which is pretty reasonable. The vast majority of people want Heart to stay in the league; many are just critical of their small crowds and club model. I imagine Chris thinks that his club would do a better job than Heart, which is where the title of the thread came from. This is a legitimate point of view.

Is the argument that anyone WANTS Heart to fail - or that they believe that Heart WILL die and are offering up an alternative?

I've made my point clear - I want South in WITH Heart and Victory, but I struggle to see how Heart can make enough money to stay afloat long enough to become viable. Unlike some I think Didulica and Munn are doing many things right, I just feel the central concept is flawed and costs are too high.

This one

[size=7]I'm yet to hear any explanation as to why South fans collectively chose to sing the Greek anthem over the top of the Australian anthem during the 91 NSL final?

I would be really interested in hearing what zany rationalisations people like Chris and Arthur have for this deplorable, anti-Australian conduct.[/size]

Edited by rusty: 21/1/2013 11:41:10 AM

It's arrogant to assume South have any merit in their bid. That Lakeside is a world class stadium and better than Etihad is arrogant, that South have more fabric and soul than any A league club is arrogant, that the A league is plastic and empty whereas the NSL was the best thing ever is arrogant, that Heart should fold and die so SMFC can have a crack is arrogant, that it's always the "outrage" media at fault and South never did anything wrong is arrogant, that south can raise four million in a week is arrogant, that South through some cheese ball marketing "road map" will double their historical attendance is arrogant.

When you strip away the arrogance and the stupidity the merits for South coming into the A league are extremeley thin.

I'm not sure what relevance these actions, 22 years ago, in a different social and indeed sporting environment, have on what is happening today.

Agree about the bid but a club should be judged also by its past to assess whether it has the culture and / or will to broaden its base. SM Hellas had opportunities to show its direction and in all occasions rejected to broaden its mono ethnic Greek base.

Forum SM Hellas supporters aka bitters are trying to tell us and the FFA to please let SM Hellas in the A-League before they can justify any change to their unpopular, selfish nationalistic beliefs of the past which favoured their own community.

We should learn that lip service of the past is lip service now.

Yet the vast majority of this thread consists of intelligent people discussing Heart's difficulty in attracting the crowds and raising the cash to remain viable. It's not about WANTING them to fail. It's about believing that they will continue to struggle - and suggesting that a club with a solid bid (importantly including lower operating costs) would be a better bet.

"lower operating costs" isn't going to interest A league administrators, Ben. They want clubs who can grow with the league, attract mainstream markets, interest investors, sponsors, advertisers and creative a dynamic, thriving commercial environment, all those things take precedence before the "lower operating costs".


Intelligent discussion should perhaps revolve how we can make Heart bigger and better, rather than unintelligent doomsday predictions that it WILL fail. Perhaps try a marquee, or title first, before repacling it with something worse.

There's definitely a massive push to get heart OUT, and South IN, in case you hadn't noticed.:roll:

Edited by rusty: 21/1/2013 12:08:52 PM

Your unhinged post is littered with factoids, distortions and straw man arguments. I suggest you reread my previous posts before you jump to any wild conclusions.

Exactly what you have suggested.

Transport links - Monash Freeway coming in from the South East suburbs, Napean Highway/St Kilda Road feeding from the South. Train lines out to Packenham, Sandringham, Cranbourne, etc.

The club would focus on marketing the SOUTH element of the name. Hit local schools, advertise in local press, etc., to build up presence and provide locals with a team which is specific to that area. If you live in this part of town and are undecided - you will have a choice of Victory who represent 'Melbourne', Heart who represent 'Melbourne', or South who represent 'South Melbourne' - your part of town. A catchment of around 1 million, with a strong sense of identity, should be enough to work with.

There are those who opt to obsess over the clubs heritage and refuse to accept that things can and do change, but what I've noticed is that for every one of them, there are at least as many who don't care, and far more who never knew - and wouldn't know if the negatives stopped pushing their hatred.

I'll say it again... Given time I believe ALL A-League teams will grow on a generational basis. Given time I believe Heart will establish itself as a viable entity. Given time I believe South would do the same...

However... If Heart are losing too much money, and if the owners aren't keen on losing too much money, how much time will they have?

Meanwhile... If South have a model which allows them to operate without losing too much money, thus giving them time to grow... That's where the lower operating costs come in.

It's not about putting in a bottom dollar bid that can crawl along at the bottom - it's about putting together a bid that can survive without everyone having to worry about it folding.

I'm sorry but being hypothetical in what they might do is of no comfort given their instrangent history. Notice how many times you say "then" they will do this and that? Very optimistic when the past has shown no such desires to do anything.

Counteracting a perception they are a Greek club will be impossible because that's exactly what they are.

Edited by paulc: 21/1/2013 12:48:08 PM

You're assuming that previous bids haven't been judged on their merits, do you have any evidence of this travesty?

Lots of hypotheticals there Ben. If this, if that, what happens if, etc
Perhaps the owners ARE keen on losing money, and just want to stick by their club. Perhaps another owner will come in, or the FFA, or fold altogher, or the world will end. What's the point in entertaining all of this? Maybe focus instead on making Heart more successful while its still around rather than planning what happens after.

As for the South's "low operating costs" model I don't think this would be viable, if your only leverage is Lakeside your reasoning is pretty weak. Playing in the A league is really expensive and saving some peanuts by playing out of Lakeside isn't going to make ends meet. "losing too much money, thus giving it time to grow" isn't going to cut it either, the A league has plenty of time, not a lot of money.

Lakeside isn't just a match-day facility. It also means the South don't have to pay for admin or training facilities - big savings over other clubs.

South's large voluntary staff would slice a large chunk off the operating costs incurred by the entirely professional A-League sides.

Considering the hire costs of AAMI Park, the cost savings of using Lakeside would hardly be peanuts.

The staff and venue aren't the only cost savings - the already established, and now rapidly improving, youth system puts us ahead of every other A-league bid since the league began. In short, we could have a NYL team in year 1.

Then don't forget the fact that South would have an income stream that I believe is very rare in the A-League - our own club rooms - this may not bring in a fortune, but it will turn a profit even in the VPL, so imagine the potential in the A-League.

And to your last comment - you can have all the time in the world, if you run out of money the game is over.

With regard to comments you've made about constructive ideas to improve Heart's following - there have been several suggestions on this thread, and on others, often by the same people who are in the SMFC > Heart camp. The vast majority of us want Heart to succeed, just struggle to see how they will do it.

Maybe when Australia win the hosting rights to the FIFA World Cup in 2030, the APL will get big enough to convert into the A-League's second tier. South can work their way up then ;)

The APL system has to form a national division before it can become anything like a second tier.

For the APL to have any any real effect, they should have had a national league from the start, with the elite state leagues feeding into that. A-League above and protected from relegation.

A 2nd division needs to be set up sooner rather than later because the best talent from the other states is already migrating to the bigger leagues rather than staying at home.

This is obviously my opinion on what they should do - it is a forum after all.

If they bid for an A-League license in the future and do not have an effective plan to be broad based then they will not be admitted. If they have a great plan then they will; it's pretty simple. I say let's see their bid before rushing to judgment.

I am making this point because people on this forum wrongly think that SMFC should be automatically disqualified because of their history.

11.mvfc.11 also makes some good points.

Or how about we make it safe for football's future in this country and let Hellas put up or shut up first?

Let them show us what it could do now (before applying) instead of leading with a bid based on a selfish, mono ethnic track record.

Edited by paulc: 21/1/2013 02:28:05 PM

shorter paulc: something something mono-ethnic

That's what it's all about.

The broader mainstream landscape that includes everyone vs a single community enclave.

Yes, I think the word "South" in the name is the clear differentiator to the other Melbourne clubs (which is where Heart struggle), plus it is a geographical difference.

Perhaps Heart should change their name to "Northern Melbourne Heart" :P

:lol:

Once again you're assuming the FFA either didn't take those factors into consideration or that those points are/were important...clearly on balance the FFA found the Southern Cross bid, rightly it wrongly and for whatever reason, to be inferior...

Canberra didn't have the money, and they still don't, I would love to see Canberra in the league also but they were going to lose out strategically to the Wanderers at this point in the A-League growth cycle.

Edited by Joffa: 21/1/2013 04:33:11 PM