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chris
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On another note - when south enters the HAL - It would be A Monster opportunity for the FFA to finally acknowledge the rich history the game has in this country and to extend the olive branch to the old firm
I am starting to warm to the notion that perhaps MH and smfc can co exist and the implementation of an NSL POWERHOUSE will actually assist MH in finally achieving what they have failed to achieve - and that is an identity
I also believe their number (not talking about an additional derby) but season ticket holders will increase if smfc entered the scene
The anti smfc brigade will also hit the dance floor and the Heart would be a more logical choice for these new fans in my opinion as they are a club that are still evolving and open to suggestion
The fact that certain type of posters have gone to such lengths to discredit smfc - demonstrates how potent the brand remains
A derby v victory would be a blow out
It will be epic - the old empire v the new empire
The marketing opportunities are endless
But the biggest beneficiary would be the HEART
perhaps an agreement for ground rationalisation can be met whereby Lakeside and AAMI can be shared between the 2
One thing I am certain of is that skfc's re entry would be without cannibalization
I think the FFA would also be extremely interested in a south proposal - the opportunity for the FFA would be to diversify their existing model and to create a whole new landscape with an objective to broaden their model
Especially if regional expansion remains an aspiration
No doubt the usual suspects will pull the mono ethnic card - but hey invade you haven't noticed - this week the tablouds have been saturated with topics such as betting and drugs
I think AFl for example welcomes any publicity - good or bad - they just want to be on the papers - perfect timing too - just before their season kicks off - free marketing and everybody is talking about the drug allegations
I think the FFA IS READY for a little bit of controversy
Edited by chris: 12/2/2013 03:06:32 AM
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lardface
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Chris telling another poster his replies are not worth reading, what is this the twilight zone? lol.
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tbitm
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chris wrote:On another note - when south enters the HAL - It would be A Monster opportunity for the FFA to finally acknowledge the rich history the game has in this country and to extend the olive branch to the old firm
I am starting to warm to the notion that perhaps MH and smfc can co exist and the implementation of an NSL POWERHOUSE will actually assist MH in finally achieving what they have failed to achieve - and that is an identity
I also believe their number (not talking about an additional derby) but season ticket holders will increase if smfc entered the scene
The anti smfc brigade will also hit the dance floor and the Heart would be a more logical choice for these new fans in my opinion as they are a club that are still evolving and open to suggestion
This is definitely a possibility, i think it is evident on this forum that most heart fans don't really like your fans for wanting to take our club or the rumours that we are going to change to south melbourne heart. Not to mention that ii don't think you or many South fans on here would support that and tbh, I'm not sure if i would.
The fact that certain type of posters have gone to such lengths to discredit smfc - demonstrates how potent the brand remains
A derby v victory would be a blow out
Absolutely, i think you can even agree that the derbies are what have become the biggest, most memorable games of the season along with the big blue. And that is exactly what the A-league needed which was more big games.
The only down side i could see in this is the potential dilution of importance. For example the NSW "derbies have become basically irrelevant now an new NSW team has joined (to be fair they weren't that big before) but as an example when WSW played the jets the attendance was 9011 and the week before they got 8k against the heart. I know its a jump but thats probably just the amount of jets fans that rocked up to the game.
It will be epic - the old empire v the new empire
The marketing opportunities are endless
But the biggest beneficiary would be the HEART
As much as i kinda hate to admit it, yes it would. I think there are ALOT more heart fans than you and other south fans give credit for but with no good "potentially winning"season under our belt yet they aren't showing up in full numbers. But, i think we all make way to show up for the derbies.
I know your probably going to use that statement against me but let me say that melbourne victory weren't that big of a club until there second season where they won the league very convincingly. Since then there base has dropped sure, but it still is the best in the league.
I am personally under the belief that if we have one good season and end up in 2nd or 3rd with a loss in the grand final heart will get crowds around 10k minus derbies and if we were to win the league or the final an average of 12k minus derbies and then it will stay that way. Thats just how the Melbourne market works IMO. Which is more than can be said about CCM who will stay fairly consistent regardless of where they end up the season before or the current season.
Not sure if i answered that statement but its 6am (staying up for liverpool) and i cbf proof reading
perhaps an agreement for ground rationalisation can be met whereby Lakeside and AAMI can be shared between the 2
One thing I am certain of is that skfc's re entry would be without cannibalization
This i have to disagree about. From what I've read, many SMFC fans jumped on the A-League band wagon with Victory because they wanted to support a the top flight league in australia. And others postponed their bandwagon to heart because they it was too soon to jump ship from SM and some didn't have faith the league would last when it started. (Thats what I've read from the Heart forums of why support heart and not victory)
Anyway my point is that while SM did get 5-8k or however much it was in the NSL many of those have either been like you and didn't support a new club and just followed VPL, went to a new club and still follow SM occasionally or went to a new club and didn't really look back.
And if I'm going to be honest, based on current SM attendance figures, id say 3/4 probably did the latter. So in saying that, if a South Melbourne team were to come in, it wouldn't happen with out some cannibalisation even if just about half that went to Victory or Heart changed back to South. I think its just going to be up to the FFA to decide wether the negatives outweigh the positives and what i think for now is. No. But in due time absolutely.
I think the FFA would also be extremely interested in a south proposal - the opportunity for the FFA would be to diversify their existing model and to create a whole new landscape with an objective to broaden their model
That time IMO is probably either a Heart premiership away or about 2 tv deals away. ( I say 2 tv deals cause thats when i think the a-league will start expanding again)
But if I'm going to be honest, the quickest way for South to get a spot (without a team going bust) is to do what the western sydney people did last year and get other people in the football community wanting your team in the a-league. And right now your not on that road, even victory fans don't really like you atm (don't worry they don't have the longest of memories, they fucking hated rojas int round 4 against newcastle and now jizz every time they see him play)
Especially if regional expansion remains an aspiration
No doubt the usual suspects will pull the mono ethnic card
Don't worry buddy, its the internet. just say paulc when your talking about paulc :lol:
Now i hope not to sound hypocritical, but i feel i should address a point regarding this. It's undeniable that SM is a greek club, mainly greek supporters and all greek players. (please correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard they only sign players that are greek). And the problem with this no me isn't the ignorant crap that paulc says that your a bunch of ethnic hooligans that fight, no its more just how can you appeal to the melbourne market when its obvious the market obviously targeted towards greeks and not the people living in south melbourne.
Don't get me wrong, you can still brag about your strong history, sign a couple greek players and sell souvlakis at the game but if you were to remain a greek club and join the HAL, it would undermine everything this league was built upon and that . So that IMO is the biggest obstacle to overcome in the coming years till the next expansion time is to become more inclusive to the wider market while still keeping your mainly greek base.
- but hey invade you haven't noticed - this week the tablouds have been saturated with topics such as betting and drugs
I think AFl for example welcomes any publicity - good or bad - they just want to be on the papers - perfect timing too - just before their season kicks off - free marketing and everybody is talking about the drug allegations
I think the FFA IS READY for a little bit of controversy
Edited by chris: 12/2/2013 03:06:32 AM Sorry for making you read all that, the liverpool game starts at 7 and i needed to waste some time :lol:
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vanbasten88
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jak wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Ahhh, curse those troublesome Greeks! The Germans have been saying that for 18 months now. MHT have just won 4 home games on the trot and will make the finals for the second time in their 3 year existence, a bit of success will do them wonders, their win% at home has been woeful..not easy to build supporter momentum based on that. Edited by vanbasten88: 12/2/2013 05:21:59 PM
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Red_or_Dead
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vanbasten88 wrote:jak wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Ahhh, curse those troublesome Greeks! The Germans have been for 18 months now. MHT have just won 4 home games on the trot and will make the finals for the second time in their 3 year existence, a bit of success will do them wonders, their win% at home has been woeful..not easy to build supporter momentum based on that. [-o< As far as I see it, this whole discussion is useless, unrealistic and if anything, at least 2.5 years premature! Melbourne Victory had FIVE years exclusive access to Melbourne's football fans and were the ONLY choice....FIVE YEARS! Heart have come in and we're already getting blasted for not being the same size as Victory [size=2](slight exaggeration)[/size] only TWO years into our existence! Of course we don't have the history SMFC does, of course we don't have the "identity" SMFC has forged over 50 years, but each week we're creating our OWN history and we are forming our own identity as time goes on. So close this thread, freeze it or at least shelve it for at least 2.5 years! If Heart is still struggling in our SIXTH season then maybe we can revisit this discussion. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!" ;)
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maninorange
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Red_or_Dead wrote:vanbasten88 wrote:jak wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Ahhh, curse those troublesome Greeks! The Germans have been for 18 months now. MHT have just won 4 home games on the trot and will make the finals for the second time in their 3 year existence, a bit of success will do them wonders, their win% at home has been woeful..not easy to build supporter momentum based on that. [-o< As far as I see it, this whole discussion is useless, unrealistic and if anything, at least 2.5 years premature! Melbourne Victory had FIVE years exclusive access to Melbourne's football fans and were the ONLY choice....FIVE YEARS! Heart have come in and we're already getting blasted for not being the same size as Victory [size=2](slight exaggeration)[/size] only TWO years into our existence! Of course we don't have the history SMFC does, of course we don't have the "identity" SMFC has forged over 50 years, but each week we're creating our OWN history and we are forming our own identity as time goes on. So close this thread, freeze it or at least shelve it for at least 2.5 years! If Heart is still struggling in our SIXTH season then maybe we can revisit this discussion. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!" ;) It would be stupid and pointless to kill off the Heart. However a merger of the two clubs would be a realistic ambition, for the Heart to tap into Melbourne's southern market and forge a unique identity of its own. Heart really should reduce as many of its overheads as possible and look at Lakeside Stadium for less-drawing home games.
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jak
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Red_or_Dead wrote:vanbasten88 wrote:jak wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Ahhh, curse those troublesome Greeks! The Germans have been for 18 months now. MHT have just won 4 home games on the trot and will make the finals for the second time in their 3 year existence, a bit of success will do them wonders, their win% at home has been woeful..not easy to build supporter momentum based on that. [-o< As far as I see it, this whole discussion is useless, unrealistic and if anything, at least 2.5 years premature! Melbourne Victory had FIVE years exclusive access to Melbourne's football fans and were the ONLY choice....FIVE YEARS! Heart have come in and we're already getting blasted for not being the same size as Victory [size=2](slight exaggeration)[/size] only TWO years into our existence! Of course we don't have the history SMFC does, of course we don't have the "identity" SMFC has forged over 50 years, but each week we're creating our OWN history and we are forming our own identity as time goes on. So close this thread, freeze it or at least shelve it for at least 2.5 years! If Heart is still struggling in our SIXTH season then maybe we can revisit this discussion. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!" ;) I want Heart to succeed, just as I want the A-League to succeed. I am not trying to hang shit on the supporters or the team, but my view is that their current club model is the reason why they are not getting larger crowds (compare it to WSW). I agree these things can take some time but the club shouldn't be exempt from criticism - it is in a privileged position relative to many other excellent football clubs in the country.
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SouthFan
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Red and White wrote:I'm amazed this topic is still alive. Time to move on and enjoy VPL. Heart are doing fine. Probably the most conservative club in HAL. Sure they've made mistakes in recruitment i.e. Maycon, Grella (risk well worth taking). But, its run by some good business people and it needs success on the pitch with a decent coach. Give them a chance.
SM will never make it to HAL. They have everything they need to take that leap, but unfortunately are tied to ethnic Greeks. That fact will hold them back for ever.
Close thread. Another member of the 442 community with "ETHNIC COMPLEX SYNDROME". Can't believe someone would post the above in a public forum. If this is the mentality of the FFA, whilst presently in tatters, Australian football will revert to a conference based state system with semi pro contracts. This could actually be good for the game as it would kill the current hilarious "elitist" attitude of aleague clubs and supporters who for some reason believe, willing and able participants in the national league (of which they can all be counted 1-2 fingers) need to be rubberstamped by "ETHNIC COMPLEX SYNDROME" sufferers like Rusty (who believes Marusic and Ivanovic are rubbish players whilst never having seen them play) and Red and White who like his forum name suggests, presents largely contrasting views with an "ETHNIC COMPLEX SYNDROME" slant. Now, lets get this straight, history equates to tribalism, loyalty and hate. These are necessary in building a sporting Titan. The aleague has zero titans, lacks AFC endorsement and has a policy of non integration with the past. It is also losing 25-30 million per season and draining all funds from the grass roots level to support a revenge act by Frank Lowy that is endorsed by individuals with "ETHNIC COMPLEX SYNDROME". My recommendation is to either abandon the aleague train or accept the inevitable change that will occur when Sir Frank, to a roar of millions, says "I RETIRE". Edited by southfan: 12/2/2013 09:31:32 AM
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Benjamin
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rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base.
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Red_or_Dead
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maninorange wrote:Red_or_Dead wrote:vanbasten88 wrote:jak wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Ahhh, curse those troublesome Greeks! The Germans have been for 18 months now. MHT have just won 4 home games on the trot and will make the finals for the second time in their 3 year existence, a bit of success will do them wonders, their win% at home has been woeful..not easy to build supporter momentum based on that. [-o< As far as I see it, this whole discussion is useless, unrealistic and if anything, at least 2.5 years premature! Melbourne Victory had FIVE years exclusive access to Melbourne's football fans and were the ONLY choice....FIVE YEARS! Heart have come in and we're already getting blasted for not being the same size as Victory [size=2](slight exaggeration)[/size] only TWO years into our existence! Of course we don't have the history SMFC does, of course we don't have the "identity" SMFC has forged over 50 years, but each week we're creating our OWN history and we are forming our own identity as time goes on. So close this thread, freeze it or at least shelve it for at least 2.5 years! If Heart is still struggling in our SIXTH season then maybe we can revisit this discussion. "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!" ;) It would be stupid and pointless to kill off the Heart. However a merger of the two clubs would be a realistic ambition, for the Heart to tap into Melbourne's southern market and forge a unique identity of its own. Heart really should reduce as many of its overheads as possible and look at Lakeside Stadium for less-drawing home games. WE ARE FORGING A UNIQUE IDENTIFY FFS - WE'VE BEEN IN THIS LEAGUE FOR LESS THAN THREE YEARS!!! In a city like Melbourne where Melbourne Victory is already broadbased and not from a specific geographical region you can't just simply base Heart in the "South" or "South East" and expect that region to just adopt Heart as their team. Victory has had 5 years of exclusive access to ALL OF VICTORIA! In Sydney, even when SFC was the sole team, hardly anyone from the west could actually relate to SFC because it was always perceived as an Eastern Sydney side. Sydney IS a city which can be split into East and West and even North and South because of that big mass of water splitting the city in half and stretching it out to the western mountain ranges. Melbourne's built AROUND the bay where the CBD IS the centre of the city (although the geographical centre has kinda drifted out to Burwood now because of expansion). Why should Heart alienate anyone from the North or West or even East by basing themselves in the South or South East when Victory gets access to the whole of Melbourne (if not Victoria (& Tasmania))? GIVE MELBOURNE HEART TIME. It is still an infant in the football world. With infants you will get teething issues, but as the kid starts to find its own two feet and create its own unique identity, it will continue to grow. Give the kid a chance to grow FFS before you write it off!
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lardface
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Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base. This is a funny post when you've supported the club while they were waving Greek flags. lol
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Benjamin
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lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base. This is a funny post when you've supported the club while they were waving Greek flags. lol I've been to Victory games where I saw St Andrew's flags being waved and a bloke in a kilt, as well as a club song based on Scotland the Brave - beyond the occasional joke I don't believe them to be a Scottish club. The point being - a few flags don't bother me, neither does hearing a few old blokes talk Greek, etc. It doesn't offend me - I'm not sure why it would offend/scare/worry/annoy anyone else. That doesn't make me a Greek convert - it simply means I'm not a bigot. (Not to suggest that anyone offended/scared/worried/annoyed by Greek flags, etc., is a bigot, of course).
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lardface
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Benjamin wrote:lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base. This is a funny post when you've supported the club while they were waving Greek flags. lol I've been to Victory games where I saw St Andrew's flags being waved and a bloke in a kilt, as well as a club song based on Scotland the Brave - beyond the occasional joke I don't believe them to be a Scottish club. The point being - a few flags don't bother me, neither does hearing a few old blokes talk Greek, etc. It doesn't offend me - I'm not sure why it would offend/scare/worry/annoy anyone else. That doesn't make me a Greek convert - it simply means I'm not a bigot. (Not to suggest that anyone offended/scared/worried/annoyed by Greek flags, etc., is a bigot, of course). Do you wave the Scottish flag when England plays Scotland? lolol
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sugoibaka
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Rubbish. Heart could easily have based themselves in Casey and served the whole south-eastern corridor directly. A million and a half people or more.
They chose not to, they chose to be 'not-Victory' and to speak to those few disgruntled Victory fans that didn't like Muscat and Merrick or that had missed the boat at the start of the A-League. They chose to market themselves around a European coach and 'European football', and in order to keep wage costs down said they were 'promoting youth'.
But the European coach is gone, his 'European football' never eventuated. Merrick is gone, Muscat is earning his dues on the periphery, so as players and coaches come and go, Heart's squad is now older than Victory's. Victory is playing far more Victorian players, connecting with the local football community. Under Postecoglou MV are playing the kind of attractive passing and skills-based football that Heart professed to but never actually did.
Heart even claimed to be a 'traditional' club, or a club for 'traditionalists'. Well, that went well with the actual traditionalists... (remember that pullover, lol).
When Harry came to town they said they weren't interested in circuses, but they also said "we spoke to Harry too!" and then chased the biggest circus of all and fell flat on their face.
All Heart's selling points have been made null and void. All they are left with is Red, not Blue. Barely able to scrape 6k last weekend, they are treading water if not going backwards and losing millions while they are at it.
Edited by sugoibaka: 12/2/2013 10:44:59 AM
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Benjamin
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lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base. This is a funny post when you've supported the club while they were waving Greek flags. lol I've been to Victory games where I saw St Andrew's flags being waved and a bloke in a kilt, as well as a club song based on Scotland the Brave - beyond the occasional joke I don't believe them to be a Scottish club. The point being - a few flags don't bother me, neither does hearing a few old blokes talk Greek, etc. It doesn't offend me - I'm not sure why it would offend/scare/worry/annoy anyone else. That doesn't make me a Greek convert - it simply means I'm not a bigot. (Not to suggest that anyone offended/scared/worried/annoyed by Greek flags, etc., is a bigot, of course). Do you wave the Scottish flag when England plays Scotland? lolol No - I'm English, so I'd most likely be waving an English flag. But I wouldn't be offended by Scots waving Scottish flags... Nor was I particularly offended when listening to Scottish fans booing the British national anthem at a game in Scotland back in the 90s.
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Benjamin
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sugoibaka wrote:Rubbish. Heart could easily have based themselves in Casey and served the whole south-eastern corridor directly. A million and a half people or more.
They chose not to, they chose to be 'not-Victory' and to speak to those few disgruntled Victory fans that didn't like Muscat and Merrick or that had missed the boat at the start of the A-League. They chose to market themselves around a European coach and 'European football', and in order to keep wage costs down said they were 'promoting youth'.
But the European coach is gone, his 'European football' never eventuated. Merrick is gone, Muscat is earning his dues on the periphery, so as players and coaches come and go, Heart's squad is now older than Victory's. Victory is playing far more Victorian players, connecting with the local football community. Under Postecoglou MV are playing the kind of attractive passing and skills-based football that Heart professed to but never actually did.
Heart even claimed to be a 'traditional' club, or a club for 'traditionalists'. Well, that went well with the actual traditionalists... (remember that pullover, lol).
When Harry came to town they said they weren't interested in circuses, but they also said "we spoke to Harry too!" and then chased the biggest circus of all and fell flat on their face.
All Heart's selling points have been made null and void. All they are left with is Red, not Blue. Barely able to scrape 6k last weekend, they are treading water if not going backwards and losing millions while they are at it. ^^ This ^^ There was growth from 1st season to 2nd, but that appears to have come to a halt this season - still time to make a small improvement if we twist the stats a little. The issue isn't the idea that they should be kicked out, the issue is whether they will be able to keep going long enough to grow big enough to survive. How many of the "I want European football", "I want youth football", "I want a team that represents Melbourne", etc., will stick with Heart (or more importantly, how many NEW fans will they find) once Ange's bandwagon really gets moving?
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lardface
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Benjamin wrote:lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base. This is a funny post when you've supported the club while they were waving Greek flags. lol I've been to Victory games where I saw St Andrew's flags being waved and a bloke in a kilt, as well as a club song based on Scotland the Brave - beyond the occasional joke I don't believe them to be a Scottish club. The point being - a few flags don't bother me, neither does hearing a few old blokes talk Greek, etc. It doesn't offend me - I'm not sure why it would offend/scare/worry/annoy anyone else. That doesn't make me a Greek convert - it simply means I'm not a bigot. (Not to suggest that anyone offended/scared/worried/annoyed by Greek flags, etc., is a bigot, of course). Do you wave the Scottish flag when England plays Scotland? lolol No - I'm English, so I'd most likely be waving an English flag. But I wouldn't be offended by Scots waving Scottish flags... Nor was I particularly offended when listening to Scottish fans booing the British national anthem at a game in Scotland back in the 90s. hehe swoooosh.
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Red_or_Dead
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So just because a few narrow minded and/or disgruntled SMFC fans think Heart could base themselves out of Casey, but didn't, it means Heart fucked up? lol.
In actual fact Sidwell researched basing Heart in Casey and even spoke to the Scorpions to use their field and facilities, but Scorpions' demands were unreasonable and it didn't work out.
But either way, why should Heart base itself in Casey? Did Victory ever come out and say we're based in St Albans and we're going to represent the Northern and Western regions of Melbourne? The way Melbourne is built and grown, you shouldn't isolate anyone just because you're not 'based' in their region. Melbourne Heart represents Melbourne; from Pakenham to Bacchus Marsh, from King Lake to Frankston and beyond!
Get over it. Heart got the license and they're gonna need several years to get grounded, iron out some isues, get some wins on the board, build on our history and grow our 'unique' identity.
So yes, we are the RED club! We are the CHOICE after 5 years! We are NOT SMFC and we do not want to be. WE play in the highest domestic football competition and we represent all of Melbourne. We may be the battlers, we may be smaller, we may be younger, but you know what? ALL THOSE ATTRIBUTES ARE WHAT GIVES HEART OUR UNIQUE IDENTITY!
Oh how I want to be by the Yarra, when the Heart go marching in!
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quichefc
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sugoibaka wrote:Rubbish. Heart could easily have based themselves in Casey and served the whole south-eastern corridor directly. A million and a half people or more.
They chose not to, they chose to be 'not-Victory' and to speak to those few disgruntled Victory fans that didn't like Muscat and Merrick or that had missed the boat at the start of the A-League. They chose to market themselves around a European coach and 'European football', and in order to keep wage costs down said they were 'promoting youth'.
But the European coach is gone, his 'European football' never eventuated. Merrick is gone, Muscat is earning his dues on the periphery, so as players and coaches come and go, Heart's squad is now older than Victory's. Victory is playing far more Victorian players, connecting with the local football community. Under Postecoglou MV are playing the kind of attractive passing and skills-based football that Heart professed to but never actually did.
Heart even claimed to be a 'traditional' club, or a club for 'traditionalists'. Well, that went well with the actual traditionalists... (remember that pullover, lol).
When Harry came to town they said they weren't interested in circuses, but they also said "we spoke to Harry too!" and then chased the biggest circus of all and fell flat on their face.
All Heart's selling points have been made null and void. All they are left with is Red, not Blue. Barely able to scrape 6k last weekend, they are treading water if not going backwards and losing millions while they are at it.
Edited by sugoibaka: 12/2/2013 10:44:59 AM While I hate to admit it Sugoibaka makes some good points but what he/she misses is something very significant... If Heart were to be a Casey they would a) not convert existing Victory fans who already live out that way and b) limit their potnential reach to just that corridor. Both stupid ideas if you have a vision for the club beyond 5 years. Melbourne is a big enough City to have 2 teams based in the middle of town. Liverpool have done it for over 100 years and that City is smaller than Melbourne. Heart did attract a number of disgruntled Victory fans but their main focus is the next generation of football fans... the number of clinics and face to face contact with 8-16 year olds is where they will grow their club (existing players who have played at Newcastle, Victory, CCM and Brisbane have all spoken directly to me about how much more Heart are involved in the community than all of their previous clubs). When home results provide the argument for these kids to convince mum and dad to take them or when they are old enough to take themselves the club will outpace the growth of Victory. The critical elements to this growth are 1) Winning majority of home matches, 2) playing good football, 3) making finals, 4) performing well in the derby and 5) continually innovating match day experiences so that they are enjoyable despite the lower (than Victory) crowds. Do this and in 5 seasons if they are not a viable club then look at a merger (though this may not specifically be with SMFC).
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Arthur
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Red_or_Dead wrote:So just because a few narrow minded and/or disgruntled SMFC fans think Heart could base themselves out of Casey, but didn't, it means Heart fucked up? lol.
In actual fact Sidwell researched basing Heart in Casey and even spoke to the Scorpions to use their field and facilities, but Scorpions' demands were unreasonable and it didn't work out.
But either way, why should Heart base itself in Casey? Did Victory ever come out and say we're based in St Albans and we're going to represent the Northern and Western regions of Melbourne? The way Melbourne is built and grown, you shouldn't isolate anyone just because you're not 'based' in their region. Melbourne Heart represents Melbourne; from Pakenham to Bacchus Marsh, from King Lake to Frankston and beyond!
Get over it. Heart got the license and they're gonna need several years to get grounded, iron out some isues, get some wins on the board, build on our history and grow our 'unique' identity.
So yes, we are the RED club! We are the CHOICE after 5 years! We are NOT SMFC and we do not want to be. WE play in the highest domestic football competition and we represent all of Melbourne. We may be the battlers, we may be smaller, we may be younger, but you know what? ALL THOSE ATTRIBUTES ARE WHAT GIVES HEART OUR UNIQUE IDENTITY!
Oh how I want to be by the Yarra, when the Heart go marching in! I think the comments you are responding to are more from a Victory supporter's point of view, than a SMFC supporters point of view. But I'm prepared to be corrected.
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Benjamin
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lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:lardface wrote:Benjamin wrote:rusty wrote:chris wrote:Not only do we follow it and endorse it - but we also protect it
From skips and the filthy public right? I bet you would have no problem sharing that special information with me if i were Greek, or Greek convert like Ben. Getting desperate now. Suggesting that an 'Anglo' could only support South if he were a Greek convert... I'm far from it. I happen to support a club with a Greek history. Not the same thing - and mildly offensive to suggest so. The problem is - in your desperation to prove your theory that the club is mono-ethnic you fail to see that it's perfectly possible for non-Greeks to get involved in the club, to be welcomed, and to feel a part of things... Positive signs that the club is perfectly capable of broadening its base. This is a funny post when you've supported the club while they were waving Greek flags. lol I've been to Victory games where I saw St Andrew's flags being waved and a bloke in a kilt, as well as a club song based on Scotland the Brave - beyond the occasional joke I don't believe them to be a Scottish club. The point being - a few flags don't bother me, neither does hearing a few old blokes talk Greek, etc. It doesn't offend me - I'm not sure why it would offend/scare/worry/annoy anyone else. That doesn't make me a Greek convert - it simply means I'm not a bigot. (Not to suggest that anyone offended/scared/worried/annoyed by Greek flags, etc., is a bigot, of course). Do you wave the Scottish flag when England plays Scotland? lolol No - I'm English, so I'd most likely be waving an English flag. But I wouldn't be offended by Scots waving Scottish flags... Nor was I particularly offended when listening to Scottish fans booing the British national anthem at a game in Scotland back in the 90s. hehe swoooosh. Looking forward to your explanation of whatever it was that is supposed to have gone over my head.
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sugoibaka
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The point wasn't that they should base themselves in Casey, but rather that they should identify with something permanent and meaningful like a geographical location as a starting point, instead of all the ephemeral marketing shit that they've thrown at a wall and hoped would stick.
They may not convert existing Victory supporters in a particular location, but over time more and more people would be drawn to them. There are other locations to choose from but as a major growth corridor, Casey was a good opportunity.
Even if Heart are doing all this work in the community, (personally I don't believe it is significantly more than any other of the franchises, but arguing this point doesn't really achieve much) are they going to be able to survive long enough to tap into this magical 'next generation' of fans? They've lost millions already, Munn has been overseas looking for investors, they are trying to lure Victory's sponsors away, and the crowds aren't improving.
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sugoibaka
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Arthur wrote:I think the comments you are responding to are more from a Victory supporter's point of view, than a SMFC supporters point of view.
But I'm prepared to be corrected. Yep, I'm a Victory supporter. I'm not against a 2nd or even 3rd team in Melbourne, I just happen to believe that Heart are a basket-case and have been since the beginning.
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Red_or_Dead
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quichefc wrote:sugoibaka wrote:Rubbish. Heart could easily have based themselves in Casey and served the whole south-eastern corridor directly. A million and a half people or more.
They chose not to, they chose to be 'not-Victory' and to speak to those few disgruntled Victory fans that didn't like Muscat and Merrick or that had missed the boat at the start of the A-League. They chose to market themselves around a European coach and 'European football', and in order to keep wage costs down said they were 'promoting youth'.
But the European coach is gone, his 'European football' never eventuated. Merrick is gone, Muscat is earning his dues on the periphery, so as players and coaches come and go, Heart's squad is now older than Victory's. Victory is playing far more Victorian players, connecting with the local football community. Under Postecoglou MV are playing the kind of attractive passing and skills-based football that Heart professed to but never actually did.
Heart even claimed to be a 'traditional' club, or a club for 'traditionalists'. Well, that went well with the actual traditionalists... (remember that pullover, lol).
When Harry came to town they said they weren't interested in circuses, but they also said "we spoke to Harry too!" and then chased the biggest circus of all and fell flat on their face.
All Heart's selling points have been made null and void. All they are left with is Red, not Blue. Barely able to scrape 6k last weekend, they are treading water if not going backwards and losing millions while they are at it.
Edited by sugoibaka: 12/2/2013 10:44:59 AM While I hate to admit it Sugoibaka makes some good points but what he/she misses is something very significant... If Heart were to be a Casey they would a) not convert existing Victory fans who already live out that way and b) limit their potnential reach to just that corridor. Both stupid ideas if you have a vision for the club beyond 5 years. Melbourne is a big enough City to have 2 teams based in the middle of town. Liverpool have done it for over 100 years and that City is smaller than Melbourne. Heart did attract a number of disgruntled Victory fans but their main focus is the next generation of football fans... the number of clinics and face to face contact with 8-16 year olds is where they will grow their club (existing players who have played at Newcastle, Victory, CCM and Brisbane have all spoken directly to me about how much more Heart are involved in the community than all of their previous clubs). When home results provide the argument for these kids to convince mum and dad to take them or when they are old enough to take themselves the club will outpace the growth of Victory. The critical elements to this growth are 1) Winning majority of home matches, 2) playing good football, 3) making finals, 4) performing well in the derby and 5) continually innovating match day experiences so that they are enjoyable despite the lower (than Victory) crowds. Do this and in 5 seasons if they are not a viable club then look at a merger (though this may not specifically be with SMFC). In addition, Heart invests $550,000 annually on their grassroots initiatives. That's a long-term commitment, which may not start paying real dividends for another 5-10+ years. It's like you guys think Heart should've been instantly massive and because they're not already as big as Victory they've become stagnant and aren't making an effort, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It's not so easy to compete with Victory since they've been the ONLY football club any young kid knew of until 3 years ago. Just imagine an 8-12yo in 2005 when the A-League began...they ALL followed Victory. Five years on, they're teenagers and now are emotionally connected to Victory. Enter Heart. Why would a teenager when all they've known is Victory all of a sudden start going for heart? They won't. Which means, Heart has to plant its own seeds. Get into the 'hearts' and minds of young boys and girls who now have a choice. Now their friends don't all support the same team...that can't be easy either for a kid. How many people do you know who support an AFL team because when they were young their neighbour or best friend or even teacher supported them? Or another example is say when a kid was aged 7 in 1989, Hawthorn won the Grand Final and they've supported them for that reason ever since? With hard work, perseverance, time and continued investment Heart WILL continue to grow...all over Melbourne ;)
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paulc
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Benjamin wrote:Chris knows people on the committee at the club - as do most of us. I'm sure you do Ben.
In a resort somewhere
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Red_or_Dead
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Just another example of Heart working hard in the community :) Heart to donate defibrillator to FC Birrarung wrote:
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paulc
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Benjamin wrote:paulc wrote:Ethnic violence seems to always follow at South Melbourne Hellas' home ground it appears. What's going to happen if Hellas play Preston Macedonia in a FFA cup or APL? Quote:Police trawl soccer riot video By Jesse Hogan April 18, 2005 - 3:24PM Supporters watch on as flares are thrown at Bob Jane Stadium last night. Photo: Stefan Gorgievski Police are furious after ethnic-based soccer violence flared again last night during a Victorian Premier League soccer clash between South Melbourne and Preston Lions at Bob Jane Stadium. Four officers received minor injuries in the melee. One person was arrested for assaulting an officer, with police studying video footage to try and make more arrests. Even before play began, 9000 supporters of South Melbourne - which has a mainly Greek fan base - and the predominantly Macedonian Preston Lions were segregated at opposite ends of the stadium, separated by water-filled barriers. Forty-five police and 40 security staff confiscated inflammatory banners and amid chanting and rising tension, delaying kick-off by 15 minutes. A goal from ex-South Melbourne player Steve Manceski was enough for Preston to claim victory against its higher-rated opponent, but the result triggered violence in the stands. At least a dozen flares were thrown onto the pitch after the match, while about 100 supporters of both clubs invaded the pitch after breaking down a fence. The rival supporters also threw coins and darts at each other. Mounted police were used to disperse the crowd. One supporter threw a wheelie bin at a police horse. Acting Superintendent Chris Duthie, who was working at the match, said the behaviour of some fans was "very disappointing". "The police could do little else than try and control the crowd," he said. "If we had have gone in and made numerous arrests we would have lost our personnel," he said. "If it hadn't have been for the police horses, I think we would have lost the day." A match between South Melbourne and Melbourne Knights in the now-defunct National Soccer League in February last year was also marred by crowd violence. Supporters, most of whom supported the Knights, ripped up chairs at Bob Jane Stadium and marched down Clarendon Street in droves after the match, damaging many shops along the way. South Melbourne president George Donikian said it was likely future matches between the two clubs - which had not faced each other in 12 years - would be played away from fans. Acting Superintendent Duthie said extra officers were rostered on as violence was expected. He said he had met representatives of both clubs before the match but was unhappy with the result. "I wasn't satisfied with the fact that there was no guarantees they could control the behaviour of their own fans." He also dismissed suggestions they were unprepared for the violence, saying security officers had been checking patrons' bags while police had been using metal detectors as well. "If you have 200 people that want to riot, it's difficult to have any number of police or security in order to overcome it." Acting Superintendent Duthie will be meeting further with the clubs this week to determine how their will minimise violence in future fixtures between the two clubs. He forecast an alcohol ban at Bob Jane Stadium. "There probably won't be (alcohol available) in the future, because I'm also the licensing inspector for that area." He also said arrangements would have to be made to ensure rival supporters were not using the same toilets, as happened yesterday. The clubs face fines of up to $10,000 over the flare-throwing. Officials from Football Federation Victoria, which runs the Victorian Premier League, will meet to decide on punishment for the clubs. Victorian Soccer Federation chief Tony Pignata told ABC radio the two clubs could be banned from competition. - with AAP http://www.theage.com.au/news/Soccer/Police-trawl-soccer-riot-video/2005/04/18/1113676681119.html Edited by paulc: 11/2/2013 09:17:49 AM Continually re-printing the same article from 8 years ago doesn't make it a frequent occurrence. If I were to re-print articles about the seat smashing at Etihad would that make it a regular thing? As for the cup/bottle throwing a Glory - you appear to think this is minor and not worth mentioning, yet SA felt it was worthy of a good behavior bond back in 98. You can mention what you want Benjamin as all forms of anti social behaviour is unacceptable. However, ethnic tension and fighting with its replicated wars from the homeland doesn't belong in Australia and yes it's worse than throwing paper cups. We would know much more about it if the the mono ethnic clubs had as much coverage as the A-League does that is for sure. There's no doubt should SM Hellas meet Preston Macedonia in a FFA cup or APL it will happen all over again. Just like in 2005 and before that. I'm glad we have safeguards. Edited by paulc: 12/2/2013 12:10:18 PM
In a resort somewhere
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Arthur
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sugoibaka wrote:Arthur wrote:I think the comments you are responding to are more from a Victory supporter's point of view, than a SMFC supporters point of view.
But I'm prepared to be corrected. Yep, I'm a Victory supporter. I'm not against a 2nd or even 3rd team in Melbourne, I just happen to believe that Heart are a basket-case and have been since the beginning. Thanks for confirming that appreciate it.
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Arthur
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Red_or_Dead wrote:So just because a few narrow minded and/or disgruntled SMFC fans think Heart could base themselves out of Casey, but didn't, it means Heart fucked up? lol.
YOU NEED TO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT AND DON'T GO ACCUSING SMFC SUPPORTERS OF ALL YOUR PROBLEMS.
YOUR ISSUES ARE FROM A MVFC SUPPORTERS POINT OF VIEW.
AN APOLOGY WOULD BE NICE.
In actual fact Sidwell researched basing Heart in Casey and even spoke to the Scorpions to use their field and facilities, but Scorpions' demands were unreasonable and it didn't work out.
DID YOU JUST MAKE THAT UP? NEGOTIATIONS ARE USUALLY WITH THE CASEY COUNCIL.
But either way, why should Heart base itself in Casey? Did Victory ever come out and say we're based in St Albans and we're going to represent the Northern and Western regions of Melbourne? The way Melbourne is built and grown, you shouldn't isolate anyone just because you're not 'based' in their region. Melbourne Heart represents Melbourne; from Pakenham to Bacchus Marsh, from King Lake to Frankston and beyond!
Get over it. Heart got the license and they're gonna need several years to get grounded, iron out some isues, get some wins on the board, build on our history and grow our 'unique' identity.
So yes, we are the RED club! We are the CHOICE after 5 years! We are NOT SMFC and we do not want to be. WE play in the highest domestic football competition and we represent all of Melbourne. We may be the battlers, we may be smaller, we may be younger, but you know what? ALL THOSE ATTRIBUTES ARE WHAT GIVES HEART OUR UNIQUE IDENTITY!
Oh how I want to be by the Yarra, when the Heart go marching in!
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paulc
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The last time I went to a SM Hellas match just before they got the boot, chants of Hellas, Hellas could be heard, throwing of articles on the pitch and the lighting of flares was just what appeared normal to the Greek based club. And no, they weren't battling out their tribal foreign war against Preston Macedonia either. Then I wondered why some in the A-League try to replicate some of this when I read of a report on explaining unruly mob behaviour: Quote:There seems to be a connection between some minority groups and an association with the heritage of the old country.
Source: "The Roar' 6th Feb 2013 I've mentioned this before that authorities should track down the root of the cause and fine, penalize or imprison those club members and clubs that support this culture. How many and from where would these Euro wannabe supporters of A-League clubs originate from that tolerates such bad behavior? The VPL would be a good start point IMO. Edited by paulc: 12/2/2013 12:35:51 PM
In a resort somewhere
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