he said to take him back as a brother not a slave](*,) ](*,)

@benjamin if you think a statement is so obvious that it needs no defending you may as well say i disagree. But historically the bible cannot be used for control. You have to deny access to it to create control which clearly means its not the bible doing the control. I could use moby dick for the same purpose

also the fact that you still call what i wrote ownership of another human being makes me question whether you read what i wrote

The punishment for sin in the bible is death not giving up a slave

Also i missed what you were saying in the last two points. Are you saying that because we have free will its not fair to punish sin? I dont follow
and the last point required restricted access to the bible to sustain

Going to stop now because I should have learned long ago that those who can't see the illogicality of religion are never going to accept any argument about the illogicality of religion. Peace be with you.

To be fair, if Ricey made such a claim, that's not naivety, it's stupidity.


Edited by Benjamin: 27/10/2014 01:29:37 AM

Another way of putting the whole slavery in the bible is that if the bible condones slavery then Australia is a slave state for having community service

after all community service is where you are forced to work to pay a debt to society.
What is described in the bible is a system where you work off a debt that is interest free and there is far more antipoverty measures than sweden

ok but consider how this conversation has occured

i start a thread about trying to inform myself about an alternative religion so i can fight predjudice

you start making misinformed comments about the bible i gently offer to explain any questions about my faith
you then make a bunch of assertations about my faith without evidence
i roll my eyes and look to move on cos the point of this thread was to learn about islam not discuss the bible
later you come on again and make more nonsense statements about christianity never with evidence for your assertions.
i ask about a few of your assertations and try to answer another
you respond by saying its the most naive statement on 442 again no evidence given
i bite (and perhaps i shouldnt have) and press you again
you still give no evidence for your assertions but leave with a parting shot about how illogical my faith is and there is no point trying to convince me of this
if this is what "logic" looks like ill take the "stupidity" of my faith any day. How did atheists become the trolls of the internet?

anyway this thread is getting derailed im here to learn about islam and i shoukd get back to that.

thanks heaps zimbos for your informative answers

When has the bible not been used to control the masses?

Even now it dictates the life of billions.

While sending the slave back to his master. Surely you can distinguish between the two - 1 - slavery is abhorrent and God detests it. 2 - Treat your slaves well. :^o

Only one is an endorsement of slavery

Ephesians 6 5-9, Colossians 3 22.

Any time any one seeks to gain insight into another group, it's a good thing - so it's good that you continue to read the Quran and its great that zimbos is willing and able to answer questions. Understanding the central issues to all religions, especially the fact that at the most basic level the ancient religions are essentially the same (ie/ be nice to one-another, protect your people, look after the weak, etc.).

As for Athiests being the trolls of the internet - we gave Christianity a 2,000 year headstart. For the vast majority of that intelligent questioning of the religious argument could get you killed. I happen to think that the ability to question, or even ridicule, religion is one of the greatest advancements in the history of civilization.

Which nonsense claims did I make about Christianity?

been watching this thread for some time now and have found many comments very interesting and some just completely mind boggling.....

the problem in many cases is that the population of countries like Afghanistan are largely uneducated and they rely on the imams/clerics to educate them on the quran as they are unable to read it, these guys put massive slants on the interpretation of certain passages to control and manipulate the masses

As do certain corners of the Christian church... The key is that people put far too much weight into the words (because they are supposedly the direct word of God) than into the spirit (for lack of a better word) of the text. If we all lived by the genuine ideals of either religion there's little doubt that the world would be a better place - unfortunately, both have become twisted by people insisting on it all being word-for-word important, and we've ended up fighting over bits of this and bits of that, rather than agreeing on the general idea that being good to each other is a pretty sound policy for life.

Anyone that doesn't think the bible and religion hasn't been used to control the populace for centuries is either;

a) deluded
b) willingly ignorant or
c) a very poor student of history.

In Europe alone the church held sway for hundreds of years. Monarchs and governments were inert unless they had ecclesiastical approval to govern in even the most basic way.

Worse are supposedly educated people that believe the earth is only 6000 years old, that Noah was 900 years old and other rubbish like that.

It is no surprise that the smarter someone is the less likely they are to be religious.

Interestingly, as has been proven many times, atheists have a better understanding of the bible than religious folk.

That's what you get with an enquiring mind I suppose.

I wouldn't believe for a second that I have a better understanding of the bible than religious folk - however, I struggle to see how people can believe in the Bible, but not the silly parts... For me, if it's the word of God, and if it is to be taken seriously as the word of God, then you have to stand up for all of it. Once you get to that point, that's where the tricky 'science' stuff kicks in...

I genuinely apologize to those who have a religious faith and believe that trolling is going on here - but if you discuss religion in a public forum, you will get dissent.

It's easy to believe.

5 minutes talking to anyone religious about the history, the doctrine, the stories, the structure of the bible is all you need to work out that you know far more about the bible than most of them do.

right and they didn't allow the bible in their own language. When people were allowed access to the bible it broke the control of the catholic church. This is called the reformation
Restricting access to the bible is what created control. At best a generic concept of God can create control. The bible itself doesnt

it is true that the new testament says the first two though only the new testament says the second and both testaments say the first. The early Christians sent a letter to a church in acts saying that they wish to put no more (moral) burden on them other than abstaining from murder, idolatry and sexual immorality. Christians had a message of grace, that God forgives, loves and welcomes sinners and in fact all are sinners - none are better - and all are made in the image of God - none are without amazing value. This extended to everyone even slave owners, tax collectors (who are the moral equivalent of judanaughts, profiting over their own people's oppression) and the romans themselves (who historically were about as brutal as nazis). Jesus said if a roman officer asks you to carry his equipment one mile to carry it two, turn the other cheek when struck and love your enemies just as God loves his.
Having said that. The new testament church maintained views on what was right and what was wrong. However, the philosophy was to not repay evil for evil but to overcome evil with good (and love). A big summary of what this means is that a system of punishment for doing bad and reward for doing good cannot make you good. After all isn't it just self interest that makes you good in this case? However, if you are loved when you don't deserve it (by recieving God's love or recieving other peoples love) you win in two ways - you are in a relationship that you don't deserve and remarkably you usually become more moral.
In the case you referred to about paul returning a slave to his master. Paul says his former slave has been working with him to preach the gospel and he asks as a favour to have him greeted as a brother not a slave and let him come back to Paul and preach the gospel with him while Paul is in chains (aka in pauls place). He asks him to treat the former slave as he would treat paul. But paul says he didn't want to force him but get his consent and then he says that he will pay compensation if necessary and says "I won't mention you owe me your soul". It appears to be a letter hoping for reconciliation. Admittedly if you rely just on this letter (or just on any letter of the bible) you could claim it says a variety of things

In general people who have followed the Bible have condoned non-violent protest. A key point which isn't clear is whether you can be violent in standing up for others who can't stand up for them selves. The bible is silent on this and I know people who have both opinions.

I would definitely disagree that islam is the same or even roughly the same as Christianity though I am pleased to learn it is not a monster. I wouldn't say any religion is the same as Christianity on a basic philosophical level or even roughly similar. The central point of Christianity isn't doing good though this definitely seems to be a side effect of Christianity. A central point seems to be that no one is good and sorting the world into good people or bad people is a meaningless excessive. Take western countries for example. It would take half a cent in a dollar to end world hunger what does it mean to talk about good people in our country? If you look at the west over the last 100 years or so you might think that incredible moral progress has been made (ignoring certain foreign polices). But everything that makes the modern world good to live in has little to do with morality. We didn't solve the problem of dictators doing horrible things - instead we made it in leaders self interest to at least roughly do good (or not get reelected). The problem of people not serving each other is partially solved by money which is self interest. The problem of exploiting workers is solved by unions - aka the self interest of no one will work for you if you won't pay them enough. Corruption is solved by laws (regulations) that make it in your self interest to not hurt people. I could go on and on. The only weapon against self interest in this barbaric world that has been found has been to create a system where helping others is the unintended consequence of self interest.

For a lot of the 2000 year head start Christians were oppressed (ironically) by the church state and persecuted. There were Christian sects that existed throughout the reign of the holy roman empire. I have no doubt that a generic concept of God or religion can be used as control though atheism can be too. In fact anything can be by a dictatorship. Countless Christians in the 20th century were given choices like "convert to scientific atheism or watch your baby get boiled alive". Or "Convert to scientific atheism or freeze to death here" and not just one or two stories or even 1000s and tens of thousands but mind boggling numbers. It seems to be the generic feature of dictatorships to use whatever they can to control.

As for what nonsense claims have you made about Christianity
1. the bible was created as a control mechanism in a horrible time
2. the bible contains "silly verses" or unscientific statements (although i suppose this could be true if include the fact that the bible has people talking in dialogue and even satan talking.)
3. the bible condones slavery (only if community service is slavery in the most generous welfare state ever)

Reading the comments on this thread has made me wish people would just read the bible cover to cover rather than taking its critics and often even its followers word for it. Perhaps the next best is to summarize it below though no one should ever take my word for it but read it for themselves.

So what is the philosophy of Christianity? It starts of with the law which the new testament tells us is a "tutor to show us our need for grace". I'll start here and then stop coz I'll probably get tired :)

start with the cleanliness laws. You start with lepers getting sent outside the camp. Leper colonies were common in the ancient world. However, then those who had cuts boils menstral blood, sexual discharges, other type of discharges and a whole bunch of other reasons had to also go outside the camp! In the end everyone is outside the camp. But who were outside the camp? lepers! Jesus fulfilled this part of the law by touching the "unclean" lepers and Acts says we no longer call unclean what God calls clean. Hebrews 12 says that Jesus was crucified outside the city so you too likewise go outside the camp and bear his shame. What has happened here? God took a way in which mankind measures people and excludes people and gave them a system so exclusive no one made it. But where did God appear, with those excluded by the system. Think about this though, it would take an incredibly amount of love to go outside the camp and risk your life to infection. So we fulfil this part of the law when we love (all the law including this part since torah literally means law)

Then you have the requirements of priests. To have a relationship with God you had to be part of the favoured race (jew), you had to be pure blood (not a decendant of ammonites, moabites etc), you had to be from the favoured tribe (levites), from the favoured family (aarons decendant) then you had to be physically perfect (no problems with testes, short sightedness or a whole range of disabilities). Then you had to be morally perfect and you entered the holy of holies once a year with a rope around your feet and bells around your neck in case you fall over and die. In the Bible we never hear once about someone encountering God in this way. Yet we hear about prophets from the wrong tribe hearing the voice of God and entering the holy of holies. Jesus was from the wrong tribe (judah) had ammonites as decendants, was not from aarons family and gave salvation to the jews and gentiles. In the new testament we are all called to go into the holy of holies (encounter the God living inside of us). So once again takes ways in which we measure, compare and exclude people (race and [dis]ability) and makes a system so exclusive it excludes everyone but then reveals himself to the excluded. Once again there are two ways to God - meet the impossible demands of the law or do away with the system of comparison.

Then we have the moral law. If you break the moral law you die. A lot of the moral law is known (don't kill steal etc.) and the most famous parts are loving your neighbour as yourself and loving God with all your heart strength etc. You also have the part which deals with giving to the poor and inequality. Families had one property each and they couldn't permanently buy or sell a property. If a family had to sell a property to get out of poverty they would get it back in the year of jubilee. You had to leave some crops for the poor (gleanings about 2% of income on average) and every third year you give 10% to the poor. Every 7th year and every 50th year you would have to give 100% to the poor. If you knew a poor person you had to take them in and live with you. If a poor person asked for a loan you had to offer interest free. If a poor person still were in trouble after all of that and needed to pay off a loan they could work for you as an indebted servant (mysteriously translated slave in modern translations) for a maximum of seven years. At the end of this maximum their debt is forgiven and they are given enough money as a severence package to set themselves up. While they can use physical force to make sure an indebted servant works, if they cause any injury or bruising at all they have to be set free with compensation. The amount given to the poor in this system is 20% on average. Even if you include government transfers no country gets close to this and are law breakers. Also inequality is severely limited in this system since in the ancient world the only way to acquire wealth is through property and slaves, both of which are banned. Jesus quoted the law at length especially the poverty law (parable of lazarus, he wasn't taken in. "I was hungry and you didn't feed me" all are violations of this law and warrent the death penalty). When a woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus he said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. This is not only a statement of mercy but a pragmatic statement that deadmen cannot throw stones. They all deserved to die and Jesus singled out the poverty law as where they fell short (woe to you pharisees....but you neglect the weightier matters of the law like justice and mercy). The consequences of law breaking are done away with but not the sense of right and wrong. I sometimes explain to people the "or else is gone" but not what is right and wrong

then you have the lifestyle of priests. They had no land, they would spend all their days with sinners (sin offerings) and the sick (to examine them). They would also spend all their time with the poor since they themselves relied on the offerings given to the poor to survive and had no land themselves. Jesus fulfilled this law by being homeless, preaching the gospel to the poor, being a friend of sinners and touching the sick (and healing them of course :D)

So then you finally have the sacrifices in the law. The law doesn't tell you what sins are covered by sacrifice and which aren't. It just seperates them into three categories - deliberate, indeliberate and sins through ignorance. You then recieve forgiveness and are told to basically have a BBQ with the priest. This we are told is a foreshadowing of what is to come. The innocent recieve the punishment for the sin. The guilty not just get forgiven but get an unmerited blessing.

@zimbos I read the table surah and I have a few q's

there are some eating laws
are these laws seen as moral laws or cleanliness laws (aka is it a moral wrong to eat wild game or unclean?)
There is a verse that seems to suggest that it is ok to eat food from Christians. Does this mean that if I serve you bacon it is ok?
There is a verse that seems to suggest that christians and jews who believe in God and the last day and live righteously go to heaven (similar verse to surah 2:62 in this case the verse is 69)
There is a verse that again says not to take Christains or Jews as friends. Are my close muslim friends breaking this command?
Curiously there seems to be a verse saying that the trinity that Christians believe is mary Jesus and Allah (rather than father son and holy spirit). Do muslims believe that this was what Christians believed in one part of the world or what they always believed
There also seems to be a verse that Christians are the most loving people on earth (though jews and pagans are mean). It also says that Jesus rose the dead and healed the sick and blind. Perhaps this is a personal question, but how come so many Christians are given the choice each year by muslims to convert or die. Is this just simply people not following the quran or is there some history and political subtleties I'm not aware of

Jesus and Mohammed are gay for each other.

Which Surah??

Also, I dont know the Quran by heart (well I only know 3 chapters and am still learning), so i do need to go back and look at what you talking about. Easier if you could put the verse number.

How do you put so much faith in something that you don't know very well?
(non-troll question, genuinely curious in what makes your faith so solid)

Edited by Benjamin: 29/10/2014 11:35:39 AM

He could easily know the book well without knowing it by heart. If I asked you what happened in the 5th chapter of your favorite book - you might love that book, but there's a good chance you're going to have to pick it up to see what was going on in that particular bit of it.

I know it well, I don't know it all by heart.

My faith is solid more so in the things that have happened in my life. I am not the shining example of Islam, in fact, I have broken my rules of the religion, i think every Muslim has at some point, the severity of the rule broken though would be different for each person, but i found solace in despair through my faith. It has given me a second chance. I still am not any better than I used to be.

Don't get me wrong. i too have questioned religion. Things like why would such a caring God allow a person he loves so much to go down a pathway of sin? How could that be possible? But more often than not, personally when I have questioned and then turned to religion for my guidance or help, I have found it through that means. So personally I can say I feel 'i have experienced' religion working for me.

Have you ever asked yourself why a loving god would sanction slavery? Or the beating of women?

Serious question.

Edited by humbert: 29/10/2014 09:20:09 PM

Yes. Then i read further into those verses and sort to educate myself and understand them, now i realise he sanctions neither. Well at least not in the way you think.

Yeah, telling people they can beat their wives is pretty ambiguous.

If you don't care much for the commentary and explanation of the translation, then do not read the thread. No one is forcing you to accept Islam. Well, at least that is not my aim.