It's a fair call.

Ian Botham interviewed by Mark Nicholas and Mark Taylor.

He blasted Australia for having too many roads and using the Kookaburra. He thinks the use of the Kookaburra has caused major problems for Australian batting. We had guys like Allan Border and Steve Waugh, for whom the Kookaburra was fine, because they didn't get complacent. They had beautiful technique, against the Kookaburra or the Duke.

But at the end of the Steve Waugh era, the tone of Australian batting was all about domination.

They forgot about technique and shot selection. To help things out, we have started having the flattest of wickets and the Kookaburra.

It has seriously fucked up our batting. Kind of like a massive bubble in a financial market that was always going to burst. And bursts every time we tour England.

Siddle just dimisses Lyth. And he's yet to concede a run after four overs.

We could have done with him.

Johnson is still a dangerous bowler, even though ageing. Even when not selected for Australia a few years ago, Ed Cowan told the cricket members at a presentation he was still very difficult to face. Selectors need to keep the speed gun on him though, because if Johnson drops in pace, like most at his age do, he will become innocuous.

Because of his bowling action, batters tend to pick him up later than other bowlers. Hence, having less time to execute a shot.

A Shield squad cricketer I know through work said Johnson has unbelievable physical strength, along with Hilfenhaus. They can both bench press circa 140 kilos. Johnson gets nasty balls to lift out of flat pitches when nobody else can. Like Siddle is showing in this test, experience is important.

Siddle and Lyon created great pressure from unerring accuracy, after the more explosive but wayward bowling of Johnson and Starc. Johnson again softened up the bald opener from Yorkshire with some brutal deliveries.

Quickflick was spot on with his comments that an accurate bowler who gets bit of swing both ways and a bit off the seam, would be more useful in England than bowlers who can bowl at 145kph with less accuracy.

Lehmann made the mistake of saying that if you can't bowl at 140 kph a bowler cannot make the Aussie team. That may be more applicable for Aussie conditions, but not in England.

I'd like to see Lyon get a lot of wickets in the second innings and win the game for us.

Decentric

Ta. You're right about how good Johnson is. The problem is that he's going older. If we didn't have Starc, I'd say keep Johnson. But two left arm quicks isn't the way to go unless you have a bowler like Ryan Harris in the XI too. Going into the future, it's hard to say where Johnson will be down the track. So I dunno. But I can't help thinking the idea of 11.mvfc.11 isn't wrong. Especially given our bowling stocks at the minute.

It's all about balance. This experience has been fairly humbling for the Channel 9 commentary box and it's nice to hear them make slightly more insightful comments.

Taylor, Warne and Healy have made a really point that Johnson (or Starc) are invaluable when they can be used in short sharp bursts. They're strike bowlers who will go for runs. They're not workhorses.

If you have one, maybe two of them, but you must have at least one other bowler who is highly accurate and doesn't get flustered. He will take wickets from his accuracy and dry up the runs.

But if you have to rely on Starc and Johnson bowling long spells (and you've got no consistent bowler), you're in big trouble. This has happened in three matches this series.

It's all about balance. First and foremost, you want one bowler who is highly accurate and can maintain dangerous and economical line and length. He needn't be that quick. Then you want another who's also very accurate (even if he's not McGrath, Donald, Hadlee, etc.) Then you want one, maybe two bowlers with express pace. And hopefully between them, you've got a left armer, you've got one who can swing it, you've got one who can seam it.

Edited by quickflick: 22/8/2015 11:26:15 PM

All the Australia and England players are sporting black arm bands. I'm wondering if it's to honour the passing of Arthur Morris.

He was an all-time great. Don Bradman regarded him as the best left-handed batsman he ever saw.

Mitch Marsh (I think) who was fielding on the boundary just accepted some food from people in the crowd in between deliveries.

Hahahaha what a ledge

Lyon is Clarke's greatest legacy

DANIEL BRETTIG

It is fitting that spin is playing a key role for Australia in Michael Clarke's final Test as he has always been a captain who has understood and nurtured the art 28 shares

Australia celebrate as Ben Stokes walks off having edged Nathan Lyon   © Getty Images
If a straightforward grab from the outside edge of Ben Stokes turns out to be Michael Clarke's final catch in Test cricket, then it will be an entirely fitting epitaph for the captain's four years marshalling his men in the field.

That's because the catch was taken off the bowling of Nathan Lyon, a man who has grown enormously under Clarke's wing to become a central player in this team and arguably Australia's finest offspin bowler. Given the many and varied difficulties faced by the nation's spinners in the 21st century, the growth of Lyon into a genuinely world-class bowler should stand as Clarke's greatest legacy to the Australian team.

Several months ago in the West Indies, Lyon became Australia's most prolific offspinner. With his wickets at The Oval, Lyon has climbed into the top 10 offspin bowlers in the history of the game. Of those, only Muttiah Muralitharan, Graeme Swann and Jim Laker have bettered Lyon's strike rate. By any measure, it is quite a feat.

But when the context of Australian spin bowling in a post-Warne world is added to the picture, the achievements of Lyon in partnership with Clarke enter the realm of the extraordinary. All statistical measures of the game indicate that it has never been harder to bowl finger spin down under, while the expectations created by Warne were such that a succession of his replacements were crushed by their weight.

Back in 2011, Clarke started his captaincy without even knowing who his spin bowler would be. A relentless cycle of selection missteps and indifferent performances had churned through Stuart MacGill, Brad Hogg, Beau Casson, Cameron White, Jason Krejza, Nathan Hauritz, Xavier Doherty, Michael Beer and a fledgling Steven Smith. On his first tour as captain in Bangladesh, Clarke reflected on what he wanted. Vitally, he made it clear he was not looking for another Warne. That much had not always been clear among others.

"The one thing we need to continue to remember though is we're never going to get another Shane Warne," Clarke said in a Dhaka hotel room. "He's one of a kind and I think as the Australian public and the expectation we have with our spin bowlers, things have changed. We certainly haven't got Warney, we've moved from that.

"But I do believe spin bowling will play a huge part in Australian cricket's success going forward, it's just about using them the right way, supporting them and getting the most out of what they do. Hopefully I can set some good fields and show them good faith and support them as much as I possibly can."

Lyon was then hurled into the fray on the basis of one promising domestic season for South Australia and a short Australia A tour to Zimbabwe. When the Test team arrived in Sri Lanka for Clarke's first Test assignment in charge, most figured that Beer would play first as the incumbent spinner. But Clarke and the selector on duty Greg Chappell warmed to Lyon's flight, dip and spin, offering him a debut on a turning pitch in Galle.

Right from the start, Clarke proved true to his word in supporting Lyon. Very first ball, he dived to claim a blinding catch when Kumar Sngakkara edged a biting off break. A feel-good five-wicket haul ensued, immediately shoring up Lyon's place in the XI and also firming his relationship with Clarke. If Lyon and Clarke had little in common off the field, it made negligible difference to their growing affinity on it.

The road from Galle 2011 to the Oval in 2015 has not always been a smooth one. Lyon was twice dropped from the team two years ago, first for Doherty when bowling inconsistently in India then for Ashton Agar when bowling rather better in England. But by the third Test of that Ashes series Lyon was back in the XI, and he has stayed there ever since, improving all the time and growing in the sort of confidence a spin bowler must have.

One under-rated element of England preparing a pair of grassy pitches for Edgbaston and Trent Bridge was the fact that Lyon was left with little to do, and Clarke with few opportunities to use him. Steve Waugh and Ricky Ponting were always at their most comfortable rotating their fast bowlers on lively strips, but Clarke has enjoyed the sleight of hand utilised by a spin bowler and his captain. Like his batting, Clarke's captaincy has been an affair of skill and subtlety rather than power and muscle. In how he has handled Lyon, Clarke has left a helpful blueprint for successors to emulate.

This was never more evident than at The Oval. Though Clarke's batting has deteriorated badly, his aptitude in the field can still be glimpsed. On day two, he took a six-over-old ball from the hands of his pacemen on a surface where the ball had seamed and swung, allowing Lyon to use it even before Peter Siddle had done so. Clarke had often observed how Ponting generally used his spin bowler last of all in the attack, leaving the impression the captain felt his spin bowler only fourth or fifth likely to take a wicket. Here was the opposite extreme.

Increasingly, Lyon has revelled in such commissions, using the hard ball and prominent seam to extract steep bounce and quick turn. Faced with Alastair Cook, Lyon ripped down an off break that curled nicely in towards middle stump before snapping back to flick the outside of off stump. Lyon has not bowled a more gorgeous delivery in all his 46 Tests.

On day three, Lyon returned the favour to Clarke by nipping out a pair of wickets when very little was happening for the pacemen. Jonny Bairstow was done by spin and bounce from over the wicket to squeeze a catch to short leg, Lyon's line a product of now established confidence to bowl from either over or around the stumps with no discernible loss of comfort or danger. Four balls later, and a loopier ball tossed into the rough had Stokes misjudging length and spin to skew a catch to Clarke. From beneath the captain's white floppy hat, a grin emerged.

When Clarke then called upon Smith for an over of speculative leg breaks that reaped the wicket of Cook, the sense that Australia are losing a leader with an innate sense for timing and spin bowling was only enhanced. Australia will leave England with plenty of issues to mull over, but the quality and confidence of their spin bowler will not be one of them. They have Lyon and Clarke to thank for that.

Edited by Decentric: 23/8/2015 08:06:50 AM

If we play an offspinner it helps to play two left arm bowlers to create footmarks

My fav bowling sides would be
starc johnson bird and lyon
or
fawad pattinson bird hazelwood/starc

perhaps people can tell im a jackson bird fan

anyway u needa bowing team
left armquicks leave footmarks for offies and right arm quicks leave footmarks for leggies or orthodox.
Ideally its good to have one bowler that is noticeably different speed to the others for variatio
one bowling partnership capable of consistenly bowling consequetive maidens. One old ball specialests and 2 new ball specialists
Havingdifferent arm quicks is useful too

as a bowling team this team is ideal, despite johnsons drop in form

i just happen to be a huge fan of bird. Also im unpleasantly surprised hazelwood couldnt do siddles role

Quickflicks responses are lengthy so i probably cant reply in detail. Ill just give a quick point form summary of my opinion and take it on faith that im being polite despite writing in pojnt form :)

there are several aspects of a batsmens game

1. Technique: technique involves anything that involves moving your weight towards the ball moving the ball in the direction u wish to hit it and track the ball with your eyes. Orthodox technique is moving your feet forward to the pitch of the ball or back and accross, keeping your elbow up if u play a straight bat shot, keeping your head still, rolling your wrist on a cross bat shot to keep it down, favouring your top hand over your bottom and countless other things. It is perfectly ok to have an unorthodox technique as long as it acheivesthe same things. In generalaustralian players in the modern era have had good technique. Shane watson often maligned and very good footwork

2. Skill. This is hand eye coordination and timing. Modern aussie batsment are good at the former but are sound at the latter. They are as a cohort less talented

3. Innings management. This includes not playing at anything you dont have to against the new ball, the start of your innings, the start or end of a session or right after a drinks break. Its about learning to rotate the strike especially after a boundary or hou were beaten. Dont let anyone bowl 6 balls at you or they can bowl to a plan. Shane watson was particularly bad at this and his weakness was found out. Everyone has a weakness but innings management stops it getting found out as frequently. Also move your feet and track the flight of the ball on balls you leave to getyour feet moving and get the pace of the pitch. Finally switch off between balls. This generation has been hopeless at this but better this test


4. Mental strength and concentration. A batter with poor concentration wilk struggle to convert starts. This has been a weakness in modern aussie batters apart from smith clark and to a lesser degree warner and rogers. Some commentators have blames 20 20 but i dont buy it, it hasnt been a problem for other nations. If 20 20 is to blame its probably more australia have done a poor job managing a transition into the 20 20 era.

5. Style. Are you aggressive moderate or defensive? Do u have few scoring zones or many? Do you hit boundaries with soft hands or go hard at the ball? Do you have large footmovements or small. Some styles are better in some conditions than others. Our players play hard handed often with dramatic footmovements. This is because australia has large bounce and carry. Soft handed nicks are likely to carry but hard handed nicksare likely to fly over the slips so there is more margin for error. Large footmovements ndgotiate the pace and bounce better.
in general the wisdom australian coaches i have heard give is not to adjusg you style to conditions as you actually decline in the long term if you change your natural game. Its not worth ruining a batsmen to make them more effective in a single set of conditions. The only exception is if your partner is struggling to score and u are feeling confident consider being more aggressive to ease their mental pressure.

I contend that style has been confused for technique and our real problems have been innings management and concentration as well as a slight reduction in skill/talent compared to the previous generation. There might be an argument that style has become more important with the practice of doctoring pitches to suit the home side. How to manage this though is highly nontrivial.

I see him play a lot at Bellerive for Tassie.

Unfortunately, like Pattinson and Cummins, Bird has had injuries. He is a much steadier bowler though who makes batters play more.

Quickflick must be the the fastest typist on the forum.=d>



Edited by Decentric: 23/8/2015 11:38:52 AM

even in point form leaving a lot out and only stating my position not replying specifically to his points and it was still long!

cricket is a complicated game!

I've seen a lot of Faulkner play at Bellerive in the Shield. Unfortunately, in the last two seasons he has spent too much time as Australia's 12th man in Tests, or due to limited over national team duties , has played only played a paucity of first class cricket. Far too little to keep developing.

The consensus is amongst former cricketers is Faulkner's bowling is easily good enough as the Test all rounder. In one Test in England he took 6 wickets.

Conversely, as a batter he has not yet made a first class century in the Shield. The same retired cricketers are saying Mitch Marsh has demonstrated that application that Faulkner hasn't at first class level . Henceforth, they contend Marsh deserves his place in the Aussie line up as the all rounder who can bat at 6. Lately, Marsh's bowling has improved too.

Australia could bat Marsh at 6, Nevill at 7 and Faulkner at 8, with three specialist bowlers behind them, including Lyon. Steve Smith was also first selected as a leg spinner for Australia, so his bowling should still develop more than it currently has.

Until recently , Faulkner has had far less injuries as a bowler than most of our other injury prone bowlers. In the Shield he has looked more effective as a bowler than a batter.

He has rarely dominated innings, or looked like not getting out, which a player like Cameron Bancroft has displayed. To be fair, Faulkner has not looked better than other Tassie batters.

No.

I've seen enough of him at Bellerive to say he is not good enough and too old. Looks a little innocuous.

Siddle and formerly Luke Butterworth are/were better options.

Another line and length bowler, not mentioned on here, is Clint McKay.

Just remembered a big, lumbering West Aussie from last year with potential. Just cannot remember his name. Bowled very impressively at Bellerive in the Shield Final and against Tassie in the Shield.



Edited by Decentric: 23/8/2015 02:41:17 PM

I know we've discussed this off forum, but given Lyon has been Australia's highest wicket taking off spinner, whilst still young, you don't seem to rate him that highly.

Why?

I'm surprised you've suggested Fawad instead.

Fawad has been the best spinner in the domestic comp I've seen bowl at Bellerive, outside Lyon.

O'Keefe has kept it tight without being penetrative, but Fawad has kept it tight and taken wickets. I'm surprised he hasn't progressed as the back up for Lyon?

I forgot about faulkner

his sheild stats show he should be the first choice allrounder

The point i was making about lyon is that it is good to choose two left arm quicks with him. If u chose a leggie you should play right arm quicks

i prefer lyon to ahmed purely based on age and improvement in lyons game. He has averaged under 25 in the last 11 tests. That is fantastic. He has done well with a limited skill set. I put this down to his mental strength and good coaching. Unfortunately win at all costs mentality at youth level is allegedly spoiling our ability to produce good leggies.

lyon reminds me of kumble in the above regard.

he does the ollowing things well
varying the point of delivery of his stock delivery
if he gets attacked he will bowl the same ball at slower pace with more flight
his accuracy and control is good
he varies his pace well
he is a good competitor (a lyon pardon the pun)

What would be a greater skill set for a finger spinner than the current Lyon's?

Having a doosra?

An arm ball?

If not having the doosra, a difficult ball to bowl, why not use a regular wrist spinning delivery to spin the ball the other way for the odd variation?

Graham Swann's skill set?




I was astonished that Graham Swann retired when he did. Two mediocre tests against Australia and he retired.:-k

It appeared that most pundits regarded him as the best finger spinner in the world . Previously he had been a real thorn in Australia's side.

Was Swann just slowly declining , realised it and quit being frustrated with his level of performance?





Edited by Decentric: 23/8/2015 03:49:17 PM

I noted this last night. I was going to put it on here too.

To those viewing this, particularly the cricketers, what do you think about us using the Duke ball permanently in First Class and Test cricket in Australia?

Also, a big topic of conversation in the members is the type of pitches we have. The majority believe we should play to our strengths and continue to play on our current pitches.

The minority, me being one, believe that we should have more pitches that emulate those in England, like Bellerive initially on the first day, and the spinning pitches we see on pay TV in India.

Indian cricket is great to watch with so many balls bowled per hour wen two spinners operate from each end.




Rather than us being complacent about teams struggling to play on our bouncy home pitches, I'd prefer to see more even contests at home and away. The minority view is we'd sacrifice home domination for better performances overseas.




Many members also denigrate drop in wickets for being too flat.



In general there is a view that in Australia too many pitches are too easy to bat on, and that we don't produce enough spin bowlers due to too many pitches offering little encouragement.


Thoughts?








Edited by Decentric: 23/8/2015 04:52:10 PM

As a lleggie im more comfortable talking about leg spin

For leg spin a good skill set is

Being able to turn the ball a long way
Being able to vary the turn and floght. You can vary the flight by varying how much overspin you have which causes dip and drift. This also serves to vary the turn. It is good to have a delivery that has extra turn and hold that back. Also have a delivery that turns significantly less
Having variations (a doosra is an offie example flipper toppie and wronguns are leggie variations)
Being able to disguide the above two types of variations.

Lyons revolutions has improved

The spinner issue is a tough one.

My understanding is that leg spinners (wrist spinners) will, generally, generate more turn than off spinners (finger spinners). As such, leg spinners can be more lethal than off spinners.

However leg spinnining is a real art-form. It can lead to few returns and be very expensive. But off spinners are more reliable.

I think Lyon was the right choice for this tour particularly in the context of a lack of control from all other bowlers.

However Ahmed might absolutely butcher an opposition XI.

I wouldn't mind seeing both play in Bangladesh.

Aus has two other decent young leg spinners; Zampa and Muirhead.

The important thing though about leg spinners is stats really don't tell the whole story for them. Warne had very average first class stats before he got selected for Australia. Jenner knew he was going to be an amazing bowler even if he had been carted around a bit.

leg spinners are different in that they bloom later.

a good young leg spinner can bowl a beauty 2 or 3 times an over, the other three will be long hops/wides/full tosses (if they bowl properly which is very hard). If they get hit for a boundary a couple of times an over due to these long hops/wides/full tosses they lose confidence and the captain takes him off if the goal is winning over development

This is why performance over results is important when developing leg spinners and win at all costs attitude is ruining development of leggies

what was shane warnes average at sheild before he was selected out of curiosity

at the level below it was 15! (according to wiki)

Say again? I'm not sure what it was. I can't guarantee that he didn't have a good average before he got his first Test cap. But I've heard tell that it wasn't good.

Agree 100% that performance over results/stats for leg spinners.

As I always say, look at stats through the prism of context

I think when it comes to batters quicks and offies the stats dont lie once you turn 18 or even 16/17 though there maybe late bloomers that a good talent scout notices

It is under 16 whrre u need to sacrifice results for technique (assuming i was taught right). Football by contrast is performance over results till your early 20s right?

I would say leggies need that long too since it is the most technically difficult job in the team

With regards to pitches flat pitchpitches have the advantage of teaching concentration its good to have one or two around australia

Traditionally adelaide is flat
Gabba and wacca are good for seemers
Sydney is good for spinners
Tassie is good for swingers
Mcg is offers something for everyone

Has this changed at sheild level

Faulkner vs Marsh

Batting- Marsh has a slightly better record than Faulkner. Decentric is right in pointing out that Faulkner is yet to score a Shield century although he has scored a century for Lancashire (albeit in Div 2). The thing that needs to be remembered is that Faulkner has had to move up several gears when batting down the order for Tassie. You could say he has sacrificed his wicket on occasion. I haven't seen much of Faulkner batting in the Shield but I'm told he plays through the legside a bit. Marsh seems to play straighter. But I haven't been impressed by Marsh's batting on this tour. He hasn't moved his feet much and he hasn't played the ball close enough to his body,

Bowling- Faulkner has a somewhat better f/c average than Marsh. He isn't the quickest but is very consistent, has an accurate nagging length and has a bag full of tricks. However, Marsh has bowled beautifully this series. On balance, I think Faulkner is slightly better. But Marsh has looked lethal with the ball this series.

And they're both both match winners. Both have great mentality. Possibly nobody in Australian cricket has as much confidence, resilience and tenacity as Faulkner. But Marsh probably isn't a long way away.

Either way, it's a good problem to have.

I go to Japan and now the Aussies are killing it.

Gah.

-PB