How do you mean? Could you please rephrase your question?

Quickflick, you base your entire theory on Australians being the same as Europeans based in European academy's. Have you stopped and thought perhaps we're not same? Simply being in a world class academy doesn't guarantee a world class player, we've had Aussies at virtually all of them for very little return. In the past and even now, we have 100s of kids in various euro academies yet likely none of them will play at a high level. How many Aussies who moved to Europe mid teen age can you name that made it to the top? It's a very, very thin list indeed, many don't even develop to ALeague level.
This leads me to believe we are NOT the same. We all grow and develop as people at different stages of life, and this is reflected in the individual player. Perhaps moving away from Family, friends, culture, general way of life at such a young age is far more detrimental than any benefits of coaching from a potentially higher standard. This is the variable you're not factoring in.
The Socceroos are currently dominated by players who progressed through the ALeague. This isn't because of some bias, but because these are the players playing at the highest level available. Where are all those teen academy graduates from the last 10 years? I remember the hype around Davis at Bayern and Markelis at Valencia, no doubt you were one frothing over them, where are they now? Stats are proving Aussies moving to Europe in their mid teens fail.

The only option we have is to improve our domestic setup. Continue to improve and refine the NC, encourage our own academies to develop players of unique strengths, continue to critique the ALeague standard to better prepare our 20,21,22 year olds to dive straight into quality euro leagues and deliver immediately. From there they can earn those Transfers to the big boys and you'll have your Aussies at Champions League contenders.

Perhaps one day we'll see another Kewell wonderkid, but that's very low percentage.

you say players have to be in Europe at a young age to be any good

you do know, most of Australia best players in the past come from AIS, and not youth teams in Europe? other then Kewell

Australian and non-Australian players are physiologically and anatomically the same. Try to prove that is not the case. Australian players are human beings, just like all others.

The very best Australian players have gone to Europe young and, until such a time that our system is brilliant and we're encouraging the kids who were brought up on AFL to play football, then this will continue to be the case for the majority of our very best players.

I'll concede there are differences in terms of what football means to a kid in Australia versus a kid in Buenos Aires.

Still, if you look at the evaluations of the European experts who looked at our system. They didn't find much difference in the level of Australian kids 12 and under and those in places like Holland. A gulf of difference appears as they get into their teens. Therefore if Australian lads go there in their teens, it's not such a problem.



Yes but the Socceroos aren't particularly good, are they now.

Don't look to emulate poor examples. The most significant Australian footballers tend to have left young. And, as I say, there's no scientific difference between Australian and non-Australian players. The best develop in Europe (or South America).

Even now, who knows where what our NT will look like in the next few years. But Luongo left young. It hurt him didn't it? We have the Ikon who left young. Armenakas left young. Piscopo left young. Lyden left young. Irvine left young.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the argument. Kruse left later, but he hasn't done that much in Europe and I regard him as a limited (certainly talented but limited) player. Rogic left later but his pathway is very unusual and he might just be that utterly exceptional player to whom I referred earlier.



Absolutely. I agree completely. It's a two-pronged approach. That's one prong, the other prong is to encourage the best to go young. That way at least they have a hope of getting to that level (while we're at stage that the A-League cannot cater for it).



Exactly. It's a low percentage but the only chance of getting to the top level is to go young.

If our best don't go there, then they have next to no chance. At least they have a chance if they go young.

Probably the four most significant Australian footballers are, in no particular order, Harry Kewell, Tim Cahill, Christian Vieri and Craig Johnson.

Guess what? They all went to to Europe in their teens.

Law of averages, my friend.

As I say, there's no physiological or anatomical difference between Australian and non-Australian players. Therefore we can look at non-Australian players when looking at good examples of the development. The AIS pales into insignificance when that happens.

Anyway, the four most significant Australian footballers I can think of are Harry Kewell, Tim Cahill, Christian Vieri and Craig Johnson.

They progressed through youth systems in Europe.

only 3 Aussie who played Champion league clubs games over last 3 years

Kruse
Ryan
Langerak

did not leave A-League before 22 years old

add
Jedinak
Leckie

@quickflick.

One of the funny things about football is that a player can rise or fall with the level of players around him.

Take the Belgium and Dutch Leagues. Both are below the EPL. Yet Belgian and Dutch players are not only capable of playing in the EPL they can actually be in the elite group of players in the EPL.

Mooy at City has until Fornaroli and Novillo been playing with some average team mates, and that brings his level down. You could argue that he's also playing against average opponents as well, and that makes him seem better than he is.

Personally I think Mooy could make it anywhere on the continent, even Bundesliga and La Liga. But we don't know until he goes and is given the opportunity as to if he will make at that level.

The thing about Mooy is that he sounds like he knows he has flaws in his game that he would not to correct, and he doesn't believe his own hype.

Edited by enzo bearzot: 14/3/2016 11:26:08 PM

oh, you're adding Christian Vieri and Craig Johnson.

do you really see Tim Cahill as being part of Europe youth system? , he did start playing for Millwa 1st team l 6 months after leaving Sydney United youth team

Edited by adrtho: 14/3/2016 11:38:10 PM

Two of them are goalkeepers which are a different kettle of fish. I think it's within the realms of possibility that a goalkeeper could go from the A-League to the highest level. If they're playing for a crap team and they get peppered with shots and still keep clean sheets. Why not? But for outfield players (in 99% of cases), the chance is almost impossible because outfield players need to be playing against the highest quality opposition at the youngest possible age in order to undergo the kind of technical development necessary to become world class. This is not possible playing in the A-League.

Anyway, that's all but irrelevant. What did I say about sample space? Needs to include non-Australians.

Australians aren't a different species to other peoples. There's no difference between non-Australians and Australians in terms of physiology and anatomy.

So...

How many players brought up in the French youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years? How many players brought up in the Spanish youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years?
How many players brought up in the Italian youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years?
How many players brought up in the Dutch youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years?
How many players brought up in the German youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years?
How many players brought up in the English youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years?

Then...

how many players brought up in the Australian youth system have played Champions League football in the last three years?

No one is debating humans here are the same as humans there, what I'm saying is the environment is totally different for Australian teens. It's a massive factor which you ignore. You're simplifying and negating perhaps the largest influence on a persons entire development. Until you factor that in you're theory is 100% flawed. You didn't even address it in your quote, just ignored it by rephrasing your previous statement,

No, the best players developed in THEIR countries (with a fairly small exception) surround by a familiar environment and support network. Not flying to the other side of the world as kids, possibly alone to a country they may not even speak the language. No the Socceroos aren't the best, but are by no means the worst. The mid teens who move to Europe are developing to standard generally significantly inadequate for NT selection, so what does that tell you? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luongo left at 19? I sincerely hope all those players you mention become what you hope, I'll reserve judgment.

Interesting you mention Cahill, yet you're so harsh on Mooy's first touch. Cahills terrible in that department :D. Kewell and Vieri are certainly the exception, less so Johnson and Cahill and the fact that's all you can really name from 20+ years ago proves how wrong you're theory is.

Australians (Australian passport holders who spent much of their youth in Australia). Tick. Footballers. Tick.

Fair game.

do you really see Tim Cahill as being part of Europe youth system? , he did start playing for Millwa 1st team l 6 months after leaving Sydney United youth team

how many Australians brought up under European youth system have played Champions League football ?

3 Aussie who played Champions League football in the last three years come from A-League
0 Australians brought up under European youth system have played Champions League football last three years



Edited by adrtho: 14/3/2016 11:46:07 PM

Well given that the ECL is for EUROPEAN leagues, its hardly a fair comparison given that opportunities are very different. Might as well ask how many of those nations fielded players in the Asian Champions League.

I wonder how comfortable PSV, AJAX and Feyenoord would be playing two legged ECL qualifiers against say Roar, Victory or City, given their NT's have looked decidedly uncomfortable playing the Socceroos. Say second legs 3 o'clock Sunday afternoon in Feb AAMI?

Whereas I value Quickflick's erudite contributions to discussion, Dan The Red makes many good points in this post.

This is simply untrue. Academies in Europe are not gulags. They're very international places and offer quality education, opportunities to build friendships with people from all over the world, etc. And they are indeed very international.

You're basically right about Luongo. He got to Spurs when he was 18, 19. He still went through their youth system (albeit not exactly as a 16 year old).

Keita went to Lazio when he was 16. Gerard Piqué went to the Man Utd academy when he was about 16. Coutinho went to Inter Milan when he was 15 or 16. I could literally go on forever.

I've just checked the Liverpool FC website. They name forty players in their academy and ten of them are not from the UK (some as far as the United States and Australia).

Ever so many African kids develop in European academies.

This debunks your suggestion that it's drastically more difficult for players who are developing in a country which is not their own.

Look at tennis players. Virtually all the best tennis players spent much of their time in their teenage years travelling.

Anyway, our best current young players (with the exceptions of Lucas Derrick and DDS, who still left as an 18 year old) still left young. Brad Smith, Jackson Irvine, Chris Ikonomidis, Panos Armenakas, Jake Brimmer. They are all based overseas. I hazard a guess that Reno Piscopo has a better shot at making it than the majority of other Australian players. Again. Based overseas from his teenage years.



I refer you to my point above about about the young Australians players based overseas. I suspect that our best players will continue to be the ones who left in their teens (some will have left around 18, 19, admittedly) and not stayed in the A-League until their early 20s.



Do you mean the Socceroos or the youth teams? If you refer to the youth teams, it means that the coaches were utterly incompetent. Oh what a surprise that turns out to be the case. If you mean the Socceroos...

Smith, the Ikon, Luongo...

not sure what you mean.

You forget that the European Champions League is what (virtually) all footballer's aspire to play in. They don't all aspire to play in the Asian Champions League.

It's like comparing Wimbledon and some Challenger tournament in, say, Korea held at the same time. Everybody wants to play at Wimbledon.

By the way, Tim Cahill doesn't exactly have poor first touch (just not the most consistently elegant). He doesn't lose the ball easily and isn't slow on the ball. These are the worries with Mooy.

In saying Cahill isn't the most elegant, his involvement with the goal against Uruguay in 2005 was beautiful.

Of course theyre not gulags, but they are still an environment completely foreign for someone raise in Australia.
So using youre perceptions of technical development, Luongo's wouldve been completed by such an age meaning his technical proficiency is 100% attributed to his coaching in Australia?
Listing success stories of academy graduates who are not Australia doesnt disprove me, if anything it continues to show that there is indeed a psychology between us. Our conversion rates to first team from these academys are very, very low, with most returning to Australia to be nothing more then a solid NPL player. Hardly something we are incapable of developing ourselves. I have no problem with Liverpools multiculturism, time will tell how many progress, no doubt none of the Australians will.
Just to be clear, im NOT talking about youth from other countries, im talking SPECIFICALLY about AUSTRALIANS and our extremely low success rates in comparison to everyone else.
You have no idea if those players mentioned will go on to be our best. Go back to any point and youll find someone talking up a youth player as the next star. Rizzo, Patafta, Inman, Coe, Madaschi, Stella, McClenahan, Bouzanis should i continue? All more recent the Kewell, Cahill, Johnson, Vieri.

Youth tennis players travel with their families for tournaments, but largely live and train in their home nation. Poor example.



Im talking Socceroos. They are made up predominantly ALeague graduates because almost all the youth players progressing from foreign academies are simple not good enough to claim a spot. Smith and Ikon have proved very little at senior level so far, and for their age need to get a wriggle on and Luongo spent the formative years of his development in Australia. If rushing to Europe asap is the best way, then where are the rest? Out of the 100s of kids developing in europe, we cant make a starting 11 from those transitioning to a senior level higher than the ALeague. You have absolutely zero substance and proof, only a superiority complex that simply because its European it must be better than us.

Just to shift the conversation a little bit...



So with Spira out one would imagine that Wright and Sainsbury are the preferred options now for the two games. Satisfied with that, as the article says it's nice to have a little depth now to have players called up and slot seamlessly into the side.

Sweet.

Don't rate Spiranovic at all. Wright is now guaranteed to start with Sainsbury which is our two best center backs.

Spiranovic had so much potential but wasted it away by moving to bloody Qatar. Sainsbury to a lesser extent as well.

What has happened to world beater Luke DeVere? He would of been ideal to jump in for Spiro?

Injured. Has been for ages.

this is good news. wilko has shown how solid he is at the back since his return to the HAL.. he's picked up 2 korean championships, played acl. he's completely under rated, because you dont notice him, because he does his job.

melb city have more clean sheets in the 3 or 4 games since his arrival than they have had for the entire rest of the season.

Agree that Wright and Sains are the way going forward. Wilko is a decent backup player and has shown that throughout his time with the NT over the last 3 years.

I think we're likely to see this starting lineup in the big game against Jordan, based on form/game time. The toss up is at left back. Smith has been a bit player for Liverpool and Gersbach's season just started.

Ryan
Risdon - Wright - Sainsbury - Smith
Jedinak
Mooy - Luongo
Kruse - Giannou - Leckie

I expect a partly 'weaker' squad against the Tajiks, few slight changes to give more players a run.


Edited by azzaMVFC: 15/3/2016 04:08:25 PM

ange went to a 442 diamond after getting done by jordan and the team looked better for it. i would be surprised if it doesnt stick with it. the 433 with our squad was just getting ugly and our strength is our midfield.

ryan
milligan-wilko-wright-smith
jedinak
luongo-mooy
rogic
kruse-leckie

he'll be starting with full strength each game. guys getting a run will be subs if we are looking good. there's no way ange is going to risk the points. if you look across the tables australia is in about the worst position for the top team.

he'll be more experimental in the friendlies - which we are overdue to have.



Edited by inala brah: 15/3/2016 04:42:10 PM

Honestly, Matthew Spira is not in our best three cb's. He is SLOW, gives away too many free kicks and looks dumb after he has been penalised, giving away field position too. Like WWE wrestlers claiming injustice, although in his case, elbowed someone or started something upfield. I would EVEN prefer Aamir Malik.

i agree mostly with this about spiro. he really needed to step up his competition to solidify his game. he was on a great trajectory with wsw and clearly ready to step up. i cant see him improving greatly in the csl, most games i have seen have been a bit pedestrian.

1-2 years ago he was the best central defender we had. I agree now though I think others have gone past him. Wright and Sainsbury would be my first picked.

Ange has preferred Spira as first choice CB for a reason. He is a very good player as a ball winner and distributor.