you're a poet.

good call on mooy. there's some haters on here because he is currently a better option than rogic.

another stat...

Must be one very very happy bloke.

everytime you call me a idiot, i just shake my head and smile

I think your an idiot but I do froth a good stat (assuming these above stats are correct).

Lol but he did go there when he was 16... but went to shitty Bolton youth setup where he was never going to develop decent technique - the club is in shambles now. They offered him a new deal but he wanted to play first team football(remarkably he had a smart head on his shoulder compared to other guys happy to sit on the bench(amini,langerak,etc.)

He went to a league that would only hamper his development further and unfortunately ended up back here...being 19/20 and having to move to one of the hardest places to live(scotland) and then perform instantly from youth football? It was never going to happen.. now he's finally got the right coaches around him and he has developed into a good player now.

I really don't think people on this forum research anything...

Mooy at Saint Mirren 2010/2011 and 2011/2012

Mooy started 10 games out of 76
Saint Mirren Elo +- for the 10 games Mooy started was + 22 for a average of +2.20 per game
Saint Mirren Elo +- for the 66 games Mooy didn't start was -10 for a average of -0.15 per game

In light of Mooy now being Australia best player,
In light of Mooy 10 games he started for Saint Mirren saw +2.2 Elo point per game to a lose of -0.15 pre game

I say Saint Mirren was likely coach by another Scottish muppet

You happen to watch Mooy's game over the weekend quickflick and assess his first touch ;)

Oh FFS!

The defensiveness on here when it comes to Australian players really is something else.

He left Europe when he was 22 (or 21 going on 22). That is not that young, as footballers go. You get established players who are 19, 20. It's not like saying, he went there when he was 16, didn't find his feet and returned to Aus.

The technical side of your game should be sorted about 5 years before that. And as such, the vast majority of the decent player in the world are playing high-level football shortly after.

90% of footballers who have turned out well were playing for at least half-decent European teams at 21. St. Mirren is not half decent and Mooy wasn't even particularly good for them.

He was at Bolton and didn't get far. He went to a crappy Scottish team and was an average player there.

He certainly didn't establish himself in Europe at the age when footballers who make it were making big strides.

And he ended up back here having made 21 senior appearances in six years in Europe. He managed three and a half games per year over there.

= Failure.

how can you say mooy failed in europe?? it just plain dumb.

he was young, just working his way into first team football.

he was offered a spot in a new team with more minutes in australia and he took it. that's hardly failing.

It's just the A-League, though. The rule of thumb for most sports...

Play against the highest quality opposition at as young an age as possible.

Very, very occasionally you find a player who is so gifted he will prosper and develop in any competition. Tom Rogic is such an example. I cannot fathom how he got as good as he did in Australia and not even from the kind of Marconi background which players like Kewell had.

But it's not common.

So basically, there are lads in their mid-late teens who are regularly playing with and against the best players in the world. Guys who do these brilliant things against blokes who play the knock-out stages of the Champion's League, who win the league in the big 4 and who do fantastic things in the World Cup.

This is why, almost the only chance of getting to that level, is to leave Australia as young as possible. Not long after they're 15. Sometimes younger.

Mooy is 25 and what should be a reasonably developed age he failed in Europe. And from what I've seen, he still has certain technical weaknesses which I think saw him founder in Europe last time.

This is why I'm sceptical.

Hmmm, maybe. I still don't think he was one of the best players in the Premier League. Not consistently at any rate.

If we pretend we're not Australian, we would notice umpteen other players ahead of him in the Premier League. I do/did, at any rate.

In the group stages of the World Cup, on the other hand...

top scored for everton from midfield in their his first season.

and didnt alex fergusen say not signing cahill was one of his biggest regrets?

tim cahill was loyal. he could have played in one of the big teams.

Taggart had one good season and while he showed promise he rushed to soon and picked the worst club possible.

Mooy has consistently been good for years, was Melbourne City's best player last year (one of the best in the league) and was very good at his time at the Wanderers, Shinji Ono was the only reason why he wasn't getting consistent game time in his favourite position.

This year he has improved out of sight and is the best player in the league, just like Ange himself said.

I have to say this player is really interesting.

Debate about other players hasn't really been centred on the quality of individual components of their game, just on how much value we should attach to those components. Whereas a lot of the debate here is about Mooy's first touch and handling speed.

By contrast, when discussing Mat(t) Ryan. Most people agree he's not the flashest as a shot stopper and perhaps not the quickest, but he's world class with his feet and distribution. So the debate becomes whether a goalkeeper in this category who is playing regularly at a very high standard is a better option than one who might be more gifted at stopping goals but hasn't had much game time.

Whereas some on this forum think Mooy's first touch is very good and that his handling speed is more than quick enough. Others think he is a slow coach on the ball with the abysmal first touch.

The fact that there are such drastically different interpretations of such a simple thing to analyse is very curious.

Thanks for the compliment, Barca4Life. Nah it's an interesting discussion. But with respect, what do you think Rogic has been doing for Celtic? He has been one of their best players this season. Perhaps their best. He has improved previously weaker areas of his game.

What I think is happening with Mooy is what I think happened with Taggart. Very, very flattering statistics from a weaker league. As soon as he's pitted against high quality opponents, he gets found out. The trouble with Taggart is that as soon as he didn't get five minutes on the ball to take a shot, he was in trouble. His lack of 1 vs 1 ability, pace and guile meant he didn't have the means to score goals at a higher level. Maybe Adam Taggart has some of these skills but he is yet to demonstrate it in match situations. He is worse than blokes whose stats weren't as good but were better technically/temperamentally or whatever. I fear this is not dissimilar with Mooy, except Mooy's weaknesses being different to those of Taggart.

Yeah, maybe I don't do his time at Everton justice. A lot of their fans seem to think of him as a club legend.

I simply mean that he wasn't one of the best players in the Premier League. However, in two World Cup campaigns, he has been one of the best players in the group stages of the tournament. He really does step up then.

Does that make sense?

I think you underrated Cahill at Everton... he was immense...they were europa league team when he was there and playing in cup finals every year...

Quickflick i like your opinions on here but Rogic who might have the talent but can't last games and at the same time he doesnt contribute with the goals and assists as Mooy has done this season.

Mooy has stepped up his game whilst Rogic has got a lot of work to do to become the No.10 he needs which is making an impact on almost every game which is a major requirement in that particular role he can't be a passenger based only on how pretty his technical skills which is fantastic but he needs to show more than that.

Which Mooy has done this season regardless of which league he is playing he could be off with a big transfer fee in the end of the season but the reality is he has stepped it up based on goals and especially assists(19 in the league!) which is why he is rated highly.

"Mooys suspect technical ability" too funny

Cheers Decentric.

Good input as always. Same with New Signing. I respectfully disagree with you about Mooy's handling speed and first touch. As does Melbourne Terrace (or at least about his first touch?). You will find some in the same camp as me, while others agree with your analysis.

Suffice it to say, the jury will always be out on Mooy until he proves that he can do what he does in the A-League in a high standard European league. My suspicion is that, even in one with a slower tempo than the Premier League, he will still struggle because of what I perceive to be fundamental technical issues which haven't been resolved, in my opinion.

You like your cricket. There are plenty of examples of players who dominate in first-class cricket and then are terrible at Test cricket. I'm usually not bad at picking them. Although, I concede I was wrong about Steve Smith. Hick, Ramprakesh, Cullinan, Bhopara, Bevan, Cowan, Doolan and a very exciting young Australian batsman whose story is so tragic I don't feel comfortable referring to him by name. All of them were outstanding in first-class cricket but were flops at a higher level. Their weaknesses got found out by superior opposition.

I suspect this is the football equivalent.

So at this stage, if Mooy (a player whose technical ability I regard as suspect) is continually picked to start at CAM ahead of Rogic (a player whom virtually all on this forum will agree is one of the technically-gifted and naturally talented Australian footballers in recent years), then I will be very annoyed.

If Mooy goes to Europe and proves me wrong, that's another matter.

But Decentric, I recall you suggesting that Rogic had the best 1 vs 1 ability of any Australian player since Kewell. Obviously there's more to being a successful CAM than that. But when you throw in the fact his passing has becoming very solid. He's quicker than he used to be and he has a very solid shot on him....

You must have a lot of faith in Mooy to think he's superior to that.

Or like Cahill, perhaps? Cahill is one of the best examples in the world of players who are less than brilliant at club level but suddenly start doing the unbelievable for their country. I think Cahill is just a big game player. It's why he does so well for Australia (especially in the big tournaments) and he did so well for Everton in Merseyside derbies.

But I don't think the sample space for Mooy's NT performance is sufficient. Bangladesh and Bangladesh may be better than Solomon Islands and Fiji. But they're still absolutely crap. So the performances are not particularly meaningful.

Whatever Kewell and Viduka did or didn't do, they were still sheer quality for Leeds United week in, week out in the Premier League.

Mooy is yet to do anything like this.

All good. You may well be right. I hope you are because it would be immensely beneficial to the NT. I do however think Mooy needs to go to Europe sooner rather than later. If he does, and he proves me wrong, I'll be humming a different tune.

Maybe he's one of those guys who excels in the green and gold but maybe doesn't produce the same form at club level...Podolski is a good example...

I'm sorry but I still rate bangers and china over Soloman Islands and Fiji.

Quickflick, you know I like you and enjoy your posts.

In this instance, I totally agree with New Signing's appraisal of Mooy.

His first touch is outstanding for an Aussie, despite the odd mistake.

A time he takes extra touches on the ball, when he has time.

He displays quick handling speed when under pressure in terms of time and space on both sides of the body. That is, the ability to receive th ball and pass it on quickly.

ATM without any equivocation, despite Rogic's intermittent brilliance, Mooy is the best player in the attacking section of the pitch for the Socceroos. For some inexplicable reason, he works well with teammates as part of a cohesive unit in Ball Possession.

He is also particularly two footed. For about four successive weeks his HAL performances have declined until the last two weeks.

The few concerns I have with Mooy are:

* Speed and nimbleness over the turf without the ball.

* Stamina. Still good, but he doesn't have the engine of Matt McKay or James Troisi in midfield.

* He tackles too much off the wrong foot at times preferring his right, like too many Socceroo team- mates. For City last week, both Zullo and Garrucio demonstrated tackling effectively with the least favoured foot on occasions, which enabled them to have more effective body shape.

Ditto, more Matildas tackle off the correct foot, which often means tackling off one's least favoured foot to ensure more effective body shape in the contest.





Edited by Decentric: 10/3/2016 10:31:49 AM

Edited by Decentric: 10/3/2016 10:32:08 AM

quickflick, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this mooy point. I see no resolution in sight

I think Iniesta is fairly quick and agile. He's not quick as quick as Thierry Henry was at getting away from people, but he's quick insofar as he can move in and out of traffic and nobody can catch him.

Regardless, players like Pirlo and Scholes might not be the quickest across the ground, but they have quick handling speed. It's a dubious proposition to suggest that Mooy has quick handling speed, to put it lightly.

Pirlo and Scholes weren't slow on the ball, that's the difference.

Stats need to be looked at in context, otherwise they're meaningless. Mooy has mostly competed against abysmal opponents who let him hold onto the ball all day.

I realise you're not suggesting that Mooy will do well overseas, but if he is to be CAM for the Socceroos instead of Rogic, he needs do to that. To suggest he will do well overseas is like suggesting a guy who aces remedial maths will be able to do exactly the same thing in extension maths.

It's possible such a student can do that. But it shouldn't be regarded as probable.

Not in top flight European football teams you won't. You'll find the odd player like that but they're very unusual. Those at big clubs whom you can name will be the one in ten I'm accounting for. As I say, 90% of players come through the academy system of at least a half decent club (or a club with a renowned academy system like Southampton), progress through it, maybe they go on to another team (but it's rarely along the lines of Conference League to Premier League). If we're talking about senior guys for the England/France/Germany national teams, there's every chance they played for the national youth teams also.

Why do you think people are so happy about Mahrez, Vardy and Leicester City in general? It certainly doesn't happen all the time. The Leicester City story has a fairtytale element which is inspirational.

I agree with you to the extent that some players emerge via other pathways and I agree those players should be given as much consideration as ones from more conventional pathways. I also think that sometimes the system misses players (we know this happens ad nauseam in Australia) and that some players just don't gel well in certain environments. Put them in another environment and all of a sudden they can do things they couldn't before and seem to be thriving.

But, to reiterate what I wrote in another post, it needs a more nuanced analysis than saying "Mahrez did this, so why can't Mooy?". One needs to deconstruct this and look at the two players' first touch, their positioning (an area where Mooy is admittedly strong), their handling and so on.

When one deconstructs it, players like Mahrez, always had the skills whatever level they were playing. I never saw Mahrez play before he started making noise at Leicester. But he obviously always had skill.

A lot of people were writing off Rogic for a long time. But I knew from looking at his first touch, his handling speed, his evasive moves and how he passed that he was more gifted than any player we've produced since Kewell.

I'm not suggesting players with unusual backgrounds can't make it at the highest level. I'm just suggesting that it's maybe ten percent of the time that this happens and it requires a deeper analysis.



Sorry, I misread that. I have a lot to read every night so I do speed read a bit on 442.



He's doing this in the A-League and against crappy Asian teams. That's not a high enough standard for us to be able to say results matter on their own.

In all sports, statistics need to be looked at through the prism of context. That's to say, we look at metrics, not just stats.

Otherwise, the stats are meaningless. Especially in a league with suspect quality in certain areas.

Mooy's fantastic performances have come in matches when he has been afforded far too much space (in my opinion) and with him taking clumsy touches (in my opinion, you're most welcome to disagree).



Not utterly implausible but fanciful thinking, imo. I genuinely think Mooy has poor first touch. Even in the early stages of the match against Bangladesh he had some appalling first touches (admittedly he probably wasn't settled and everybody fluffs it up from time to time) which saw us lose possession. This was against Bangladesh. You see the same in the A-League. My suspicion is that, under any kind of pressure (and I mean either psychological pressure or just lack of time on the ball), Mooy's poor first touch gets revealed.

I see from comments above that others share my opinion.



I recollect reading suggestions of slowness on a Bolton fans forum. This would have been when he was at Bolton so quite some time ago. Don't forget that devout fans follow these things closely. Whatever. It would be irrelevant if Mooy's style of play suggested he was not slow. But it doesn't. It suggests he hasn't ironed out the creases that stopped him from progressing in Europe. It's just that against mediocre opposition, these weaknesses get covered up. That's why it's problematic.

Sorry for using a cricketing analogy, but this illustrates the problem excellently. You see this with at least a few batsmen every generation. Graeme Hick was an all-time great batsman in county cricket. He produced some amazing innings. On that basis, one would think he would be an England great. What happened? When he played Test cricket, he faced bowlers who were able to apply all kind of pressure on his technical weaknesses which county bowlers could not do. He was weak against the short ball and he was basically a walking wicket.

I suspect Mooy has fundamental technical weaknesses which will get found out against superior opposition. We oughtn't to have a player who is technically suspect in the role of CAM.



Nope. I'm not. I'm suggesting that Mooy has poor first touch and handling speed. This can lead people to think he controls the tempo of the game. But I think it's more down to technical weakness than deliberate attempts to set the tempo of the match.

But I'm glad you brought up the idea of tempo. That is one of the key areas which differentiates the Serie A and La Liga from the Premier League (as you alluded to earlier). But the thing about those leagues is that just because the tempo varies, it doesn't mean that it's slow (or that the players are slow). You get some very quick players in those leagues.



When did I mention speed across the turf? I didn't. I mentioned speed. That can be handling speed as well as speed across the turf.

The point is utterly relevant. The Serie A is full of players with great handling speed (among them Balotelli and Totti, it just happens those two are also quick across the turf). The key point is that if a player has poor handling speed, he will struggle in a league like the Serie A.

Edited by quickflick: 9/3/2016 09:21:07 PM