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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.7K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Some "interesting" opinions on here on NPL clubs starting their own league because that's what was done 50, 100, 150 years ago. FA have to put a structure in place with rules and regulations that aligns with their football plan. Do they have a football plan? Might actually need to have one. AAFC have released their own modeling, link to press release below. Press release also has link to full report in PDF. 18/1/2021 Progress Report highlights the feasibility of a national second division, with clubs as the foundation for successEstablishment of a national second division (NSD) competition is affordable and feasible according to a progress report released today by the Association of Australian Football Clubs (AAFC). The progress report, entitled Reshaping Australian Football’s National Second Tier, states that the annual cost of running a NSD is estimated at up to $3.3 million. This includes centralised travel costs, but excludes any potential revenue from an anticipated OTT streaming solution, broadcasting and gaming data, and player transfers. http://www.australianfootballclubs.org.au/media-releases
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SWandP
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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I'll try making it plain, so again:
You and anybody else can form a Club or competition and/or an Association to oversee it and other like-minded groups.
If you see benefit in joining with an existing Association you can apply to. If you do that you have to negotiate with their current stakeholders. This is because their stakeholders actually "own" the Association - not the other way round. It's not compulsory for them to accept every application.
If the stakeholders don't see a benefit in you joining their association then they will ignore you. If you are seen as a threat, even in the mildest form, they will resist your entry. When it comes to a meeting you will be rejected by negatively impacted stakeholders. They will put a black ball in the bag until the world ends.
The only way to get in is to get everything sorted beforehand and only present solutions, never problems, to the Association you wish to join with.
There will always be somebody that likes things just as they are. Always.
This means you must also offer benefits to the Association. That way your supporters inside will promote these constantly to get you over the line.
If you go to them and tell them you want lots of things from them, support, money, time, officials (possible list goes on and on) then you will always fail. There is no good reason for them to burden their existing Association membership with increased cost and other tribulations.
Interestingly, the kicker for them, might be that they themselves are affiliated with organisations "above" that have requirements for their own continuing membership. Typically, this might be "advance football and encourage its growth" or similar. National and International Associations often have something like that in their Charter.
That means they have to receive your entreaties and consider them at least.
There is no way forward for a second division other than what they have undertaken. I could (and have been) critical of some of their journey but I am not there so it's just words.
Those who think the FFA "should just" surely do not have an understanding of the structure or processes involved.
I am assuming that a "placeholder" event approval means that most things are in order, most arguments are finished and the proposers have been offered an opportunity to demonstrate that they can actually run a competition. It's a good idea. Everybody gets to see what the impacts are and problems yet to be resolved are highlighted.
The cynics are betting that the whole thing will collapse. The optimists see an opportunity for a raging success. The realists know that it has a good chance but problems will be shaken out.
Assuming it is a success and the proposers and participants wish to continue, then there will be a final scrum and the papers will be written and signed.
Expect that meeting to have a couple heightened exchanges no matter how rosy the preliminary event runs. People are shits like that.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Did you actually read past the first para? No? Yes I also read the second "para" and laughed at the assumption that the AAFC clubs NEED FA investment despite the well documented financial proposition put forward which claims (yes I know it is just claims at this stage) that it will be self funded. "But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail....."
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patjennings
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.7K,
Visits: 0
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+xThe cynics are betting that the whole thing will collapse. The optimists see an opportunity for a raging success. The realists know that it has a good chance but problems will be shaken out. Consider me a hopeful realist!!
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
Visits: 0
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+xI'll try making it plain, so again: You and anybody else can form a Club or competition and/or an Association to oversee it and other like-minded groups. If you see benefit in joining with an existing Association you can apply to. If you do that you have to negotiate with their current stakeholders. This is because their stakeholders actually "own" the Association - not the other way round. It's not compulsory for them to accept every application. If the stakeholders don't see a benefit in you joining their association then they will ignore you. If you are seen as a threat, even in the mildest form, they will resist your entry. When it comes to a meeting you will be rejected by negatively impacted stakeholders. They will put a black ball in the bag until the world ends. The only way to get in is to get everything sorted beforehand and only present solutions, never problems, to the Association you wish to join with. There will always be somebody that likes things just as they are. Always. This means you must also offer benefits to the Association. That way your supporters inside will promote these constantly to get you over the line. If you go to them and tell them you want lots of things from them, support, money, time, officials (possible list goes on and on) then you will always fail. There is no good reason for them to burden their existing Association membership with increased cost and other tribulations. Interestingly, the kicker for them, might be that they themselves are affiliated with organisations "above" that have requirements for their own continuing membership. Typically, this might be "advance football and encourage its growth" or similar. National and International Associations often have something like that in their Charter. That means they have to receive your entreaties and consider them at least. There is no way forward for a second division other than what they have undertaken. I could (and have been) critical of some of their journey but I am not there so it's just words. Those who think the FFA "should just" surely do not have an understanding of the structure or processes involved. I am assuming that a "placeholder" event approval means that most things are in order, most arguments are finished and the proposers have been offered an opportunity to demonstrate that they can actually run a competition. It's a good idea. Everybody gets to see what the impacts are and problems yet to be resolved are highlighted. The cynics are betting that the whole thing will collapse. The optimists see an opportunity for a raging success. The realists know that it has a good chance but problems will be shaken out. Assuming it is a success and the proposers and participants wish to continue, then there will be a final scrum and the papers will be written and signed. Expect that meeting to have a couple heightened exchanges no matter how rosy the preliminary event runs. People are shits like that. Have you heard the metaphor "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? Do you not, for one moment, consider that existing clubs already affiliated to FA and in the pyramid system below the Aleague would be averse to risking their very existence by forming a 'breakaway' independent league which may or may NOT be ratified by the governing body? I am as frustrated as everyone else by the lack of movement but whether we all agree or not, NOTHING is happening without FA rubber stamp on this.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
Visits: 0
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+x+xThe cynics are betting that the whole thing will collapse. The optimists see an opportunity for a raging success. The realists know that it has a good chance but problems will be shaken out. Consider me a hopeful realist!! hear, hear.
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theFOOTBALLlover
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.4K,
Visits: 0
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+xI'll try making it plain, so again: You and anybody else can form a Club or competition and/or an Association to oversee it and other like-minded groups. If you see benefit in joining with an existing Association you can apply to. If you do that you have to negotiate with their current stakeholders. This is because their stakeholders actually "own" the Association - not the other way round. It's not compulsory for them to accept every application. If the stakeholders don't see a benefit in you joining their association then they will ignore you. If you are seen as a threat, even in the mildest form, they will resist your entry. When it comes to a meeting you will be rejected by negatively impacted stakeholders. They will put a black ball in the bag until the world ends. The only way to get in is to get everything sorted beforehand and only present solutions, never problems, to the Association you wish to join with. There will always be somebody that likes things just as they are. Always. This means you must also offer benefits to the Association. That way your supporters inside will promote these constantly to get you over the line. If you go to them and tell them you want lots of things from them, support, money, time, officials (possible list goes on and on) then you will always fail. There is no good reason for them to burden their existing Association membership with increased cost and other tribulations. Interestingly, the kicker for them, might be that they themselves are affiliated with organisations "above" that have requirements for their own continuing membership. Typically, this might be "advance football and encourage its growth" or similar. National and International Associations often have something like that in their Charter. That means they have to receive your entreaties and consider them at least. There is no way forward for a second division other than what they have undertaken. I could (and have been) critical of some of their journey but I am not there so it's just words. Those who think the FFA "should just" surely do not have an understanding of the structure or processes involved. I am assuming that a "placeholder" event approval means that most things are in order, most arguments are finished and the proposers have been offered an opportunity to demonstrate that they can actually run a competition. It's a good idea. Everybody gets to see what the impacts are and problems yet to be resolved are highlighted. The cynics are betting that the whole thing will collapse. The optimists see an opportunity for a raging success. The realists know that it has a good chance but problems will be shaken out. Assuming it is a success and the proposers and participants wish to continue, then there will be a final scrum and the papers will be written and signed. Expect that meeting to have a couple heightened exchanges no matter how rosy the preliminary event runs. People are shits like that. I think everyone is aware of the process you just outlined but the key is it won't be accepted by the FA unless they see a benefit to themselves and nothing else. At this rate, they should just form the league with their rules and regulations already set in place and every club that can meet those can apply. As they did with the A-league. Why can't they just tell clubs exactly what they want and save us all some time?
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Remote Control
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.4K,
Visits: 0
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How can the suits at FA not see the HUGE potential rewards on offer if if they would just do some thing & Fund a 2nd Division ?! Do they understand Football ? Just do it already FA its not rocket science , geez
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mahony
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 314,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike
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mahony
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+xI'll try making it plain, so again: You and anybody else can form a Club or competition and/or an Association to oversee it and other like-minded groups. If you see benefit in joining with an existing Association you can apply to. If you do that you have to negotiate with their current stakeholders. This is because their stakeholders actually "own" the Association - not the other way round. It's not compulsory for them to accept every application. If the stakeholders don't see a benefit in you joining their association then they will ignore you. If you are seen as a threat, even in the mildest form, they will resist your entry. When it comes to a meeting you will be rejected by negatively impacted stakeholders. They will put a black ball in the bag until the world ends. The only way to get in is to get everything sorted beforehand and only present solutions, never problems, to the Association you wish to join with. There will always be somebody that likes things just as they are. Always. This means you must also offer benefits to the Association. That way your supporters inside will promote these constantly to get you over the line. If you go to them and tell them you want lots of things from them, support, money, time, officials (possible list goes on and on) then you will always fail. There is no good reason for them to burden their existing Association membership with increased cost and other tribulations. Interestingly, the kicker for them, might be that they themselves are affiliated with organisations "above" that have requirements for their own continuing membership. Typically, this might be "advance football and encourage its growth" or similar. National and International Associations often have something like that in their Charter. That means they have to receive your entreaties and consider them at least. There is no way forward for a second division other than what they have undertaken. I could (and have been) critical of some of their journey but I am not there so it's just words. Those who think the FFA "should just" surely do not have an understanding of the structure or processes involved. I am assuming that a "placeholder" event approval means that most things are in order, most arguments are finished and the proposers have been offered an opportunity to demonstrate that they can actually run a competition. It's a good idea. Everybody gets to see what the impacts are and problems yet to be resolved are highlighted. The cynics are betting that the whole thing will collapse. The optimists see an opportunity for a raging success. The realists know that it has a good chance but problems will be shaken out. Assuming it is a success and the proposers and participants wish to continue, then there will be a final scrum and the papers will be written and signed. Expect that meeting to have a couple heightened exchanges no matter how rosy the preliminary event runs. People are shits like that. Yep. That was the case before the FA was a shareholder in APL Co, before the FA were massively funded but another APL Co shareholder (CBS) and before CFG/Silver Lake had a controlling interest in APL Co (join the dots). Unlike on the past, the people at the association now, directly and indirectly, include stakeholders with real skin in the game and some SIG's seeking funding - people who are vastly more sceptical of AAFC clubs and senior men's football.... As you rightly say, bring solutions or save yourself the taxi money.
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Remote Control
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All of this could be easily solved if FA would just step up & Fund a 2nd division. Really makes you wonder what they are doing with their money....
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Stenson
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Yes Remote baby, we have ways of making slightly complex issues into monumentally huge challenges, just watch the FA and Apl prove this time and again.
Like when one overthinks things, they can become impotent, like the FA and Apl, which is why I don't think anymore. We work well together.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike "Provincial proto-fascist"? Wow that's a new one... well done you "morally ambidextrous shill for a monopolistic, plastic, franchise reality show" So what part of what I said do you disagree with exactly? AAFC (a bunch of non paid volunteers) have presented their model, have asked for NO funding and are awaiting ratification from FA to begin club selection and organization ..... Without it any independent attempt by clubs would lead to a bunch of players not being able to represent their national teams (you probably don't know or care but there are many current NPL players who represent African and even smaller European nations internationally), the junior NPL setups of said clubs being disaffiliated from the FA structure and players, coaches, trainers, etc not being able to register as FIFA players overseas or domestically. What part of that do you think is worth the risk? - That US second division franchise shit can stay where it is, you've got that rubbish with your Aleague, nobody else below wants that garbage. The name of this thread is a call to arms if nothing else, the FA now has no financial obligation to the franchisees, in fact have weasled their cut of 10%, I believe, from distributions from broadcaster and more from the Socceroos/Matildas deal. That money is to be, as per FA charter, used to benefit ALL of football - and being a non for profit sporting association all of the funds have to be accounted for and go back into the game. In my opinion (yes it is just my opinion), those funds should be distributed to the lowest grassroots clubs first, the armature leagues, the smaller state leagues etc, help with facilities, insurances, coaching courses etc... the benefits will trickle up and with a full pyramid in place will benefit ALL of the playing base, 700+ clubs and our football ecosystem immensely.. F@ck your plastic, made for television soap opera league if they are not interested in being part of this - the cheese stands alone.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike "Provincial proto-fascist"? Wow that's a new one... well done you "morally ambidextrous shill for a monopolistic, plastic, franchise reality show" So what part of what I said do you disagree with exactly? AAFC (a bunch of non paid volunteers) have presented their model, have asked for NO funding and are awaiting ratification from FA to begin club selection and organization ..... Without it any independent attempt by clubs would lead to a bunch of players not being able to represent their national teams (you probably don't know or care but there are many current NPL players who represent African and even smaller European nations internationally), the junior NPL setups of said clubs being disaffiliated from the FA structure and players, coaches, trainers, etc not being able to register as FIFA players overseas or domestically. What part of that do you think is worth the risk? - That US second division franchise shit can stay where it is, you've got that rubbish with your Aleague, nobody else below wants that garbage. The name of this thread is a call to arms if nothing else, the FA now has no financial obligation to the franchisees, in fact have weasled their cut of 10%, I believe, from distributions from broadcaster and more from the Socceroos/Matildas deal. That money is to be, as per FA charter, used to benefit ALL of football - and being a non for profit sporting association all of the funds have to be accounted for and go back into the game. In my opinion (yes it is just my opinion), those funds should be distributed to the lowest grassroots clubs first, the armature leagues, the smaller state leagues etc, help with facilities, insurances, coaching courses etc... the benefits will trickle up and with a full pyramid in place will benefit ALL of the playing base, 700+ clubs and our football ecosystem immensely.. F@ck your plastic, made for television soap opera league if they are not interested in being part of this - the cheese stands alone. Yeah bit hard to argue against any of that. Well said.
Member since 2008.
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bettega
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I have to admit, when any Australian football fan mentions anything about the US, I completely switch off.
US football is crap.
The MLS is crap.
Whatever else they have underneath it is crap, and is not something we should be aspiring to.
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ErogenousZone
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Lol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money.
This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully.
As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+xLol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money. This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully. As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down. I actually believe that the FA would want it too now that they have broken away from the shackles of the APL.... Its the APL who would want to water it down, purely from a self interest, competing for eyeballs point of view.... If clubs are getting their acts together outside of the Aleague, who is going to buy another franchise in the monopoly? When I say State league clubs, I mean below NPL and even amature divisions, if some of these had a boost of cash to get coach training, better change rooms at their council grounds. more equipment, that sort of thing... The better the tiers below, the fiercer the competition to "rise" up the pyramid is my thought.
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ErogenousZone
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+x+xLol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money. This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully. As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down. I actually believe that the FA would want it too now that they have broken away from the shackles of the APL.... Its the APL who would want to water it down, purely from a self interest, competing for eyeballs point of view.... If clubs are getting their acts together outside of the Aleague, who is going to buy another franchise in the monopoly? When I say State league clubs, I mean below NPL and even amature divisions, if some of these had a boost of cash to get coach training, better change rooms at their council grounds. more equipment, that sort of thing... The better the tiers below, the fiercer the competition to "rise" up the pyramid is my thought. Of course, I didn't take that into account, pardon my oversight. Like in that movie, it's not personal, it's only business. :D
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike "Provincial proto-fascist"? Wow that's a new one... well done you "morally ambidextrous shill for a monopolistic, plastic, franchise reality show" So what part of what I said do you disagree with exactly? AAFC (a bunch of non paid volunteers) have presented their model, have asked for NO funding and are awaiting ratification from FA to begin club selection and organization ..... Without it any independent attempt by clubs would lead to a bunch of players not being able to represent their national teams (you probably don't know or care but there are many current NPL players who represent African and even smaller European nations internationally), the junior NPL setups of said clubs being disaffiliated from the FA structure and players, coaches, trainers, etc not being able to register as FIFA players overseas or domestically. What part of that do you think is worth the risk? - That US second division franchise shit can stay where it is, you've got that rubbish with your Aleague, nobody else below wants that garbage. The name of this thread is a call to arms if nothing else, the FA now has no financial obligation to the franchisees, in fact have weasled their cut of 10%, I believe, from distributions from broadcaster and more from the Socceroos/Matildas deal. That money is to be, as per FA charter, used to benefit ALL of football - and being a non for profit sporting association all of the funds have to be accounted for and go back into the game. In my opinion (yes it is just my opinion), those funds should be distributed to the lowest grassroots clubs first, the armature leagues, the smaller state leagues etc, help with facilities, insurances, coaching courses etc... the benefits will trickle up and with a full pyramid in place will benefit ALL of the playing base, 700+ clubs and our football ecosystem immensely.. F@ck your plastic, made for television soap opera league if they are not interested in being part of this - the cheese stands alone. Yeah bit hard to argue against any of that. Well said. Thanks mate. I am more frustrated than most at the delays, as you can imagine wanting my club to be involved... just have to bide our time looks like.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+xLol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money. This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully. As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down. I actually believe that the FA would want it too now that they have broken away from the shackles of the APL.... Its the APL who would want to water it down, purely from a self interest, competing for eyeballs point of view.... If clubs are getting their acts together outside of the Aleague, who is going to buy another franchise in the monopoly? When I say State league clubs, I mean below NPL and even amature divisions, if some of these had a boost of cash to get coach training, better change rooms at their council grounds. more equipment, that sort of thing... The better the tiers below, the fiercer the competition to "rise" up the pyramid is my thought. Of course, I didn't take that into account, pardon my oversight. Like in that movie, it's not personal, it's only business. :D All good, just explaining what I meant man.... lol
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mahony
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Group: Forum Members
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+xLol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money. This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully. As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down. Nonsense - its not bout individual club finances, it's about league viability and you either don't get that or you are being deliberately ignorant in the hope you are speaking to fools.
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mahony
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+xI have to admit, when any Australian football fan mentions anything about the US, I completely switch off. US football is crap. The MLS is crap. Whatever else they have underneath it is crap, and is not something we should be aspiring to. Sure, but the point that leagues get started without FA involvement is no less true or relevant to this specific thread because it happens in the US. Others have made the point it has happened elsewhere.
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mahony
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike "Provincial proto-fascist"? Wow that's a new one... well done you "morally ambidextrous shill for a monopolistic, plastic, franchise reality show" So what part of what I said do you disagree with exactly? AAFC (a bunch of non paid volunteers) have presented their model, have asked for NO funding and are awaiting ratification from FA to begin club selection and organization ..... Without it any independent attempt by clubs would lead to a bunch of players not being able to represent their national teams (you probably don't know or care but there are many current NPL players who represent African and even smaller European nations internationally), the junior NPL setups of said clubs being disaffiliated from the FA structure and players, coaches, trainers, etc not being able to register as FIFA players overseas or domestically. What part of that do you think is worth the risk? - That US second division franchise shit can stay where it is, you've got that rubbish with your Aleague, nobody else below wants that garbage. The name of this thread is a call to arms if nothing else, the FA now has no financial obligation to the franchisees, in fact have weasled their cut of 10%, I believe, from distributions from broadcaster and more from the Socceroos/Matildas deal. That money is to be, as per FA charter, used to benefit ALL of football - and being a non for profit sporting association all of the funds have to be accounted for and go back into the game. In my opinion (yes it is just my opinion), those funds should be distributed to the lowest grassroots clubs first, the armature leagues, the smaller state leagues etc, help with facilities, insurances, coaching courses etc... the benefits will trickle up and with a full pyramid in place will benefit ALL of the playing base, 700+ clubs and our football ecosystem immensely.. F@ck your plastic, made for television soap opera league if they are not interested in being part of this - the cheese stands alone. Sook - toys out of the pram because you get called on your agenda driven nonsense. You want 'flat Earth ffootball'- go elsewhere while the rest of us deal with reality.
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theFOOTBALLlover
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.4K,
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+x+xLol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money. This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully. As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down. Nonsense - its not bout individual club finances, it's about league viability and you either don't get that or you are being deliberately ignorant in the hope you are speaking to fools. Because the A-league clubs are very viable.. Aren't the Jets still owned by numerous other A-league clubs?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike "Provincial proto-fascist"? Wow that's a new one... well done you "morally ambidextrous shill for a monopolistic, plastic, franchise reality show" So what part of what I said do you disagree with exactly? AAFC (a bunch of non paid volunteers) have presented their model, have asked for NO funding and are awaiting ratification from FA to begin club selection and organization ..... Without it any independent attempt by clubs would lead to a bunch of players not being able to represent their national teams (you probably don't know or care but there are many current NPL players who represent African and even smaller European nations internationally), the junior NPL setups of said clubs being disaffiliated from the FA structure and players, coaches, trainers, etc not being able to register as FIFA players overseas or domestically. What part of that do you think is worth the risk? - That US second division franchise shit can stay where it is, you've got that rubbish with your Aleague, nobody else below wants that garbage. The name of this thread is a call to arms if nothing else, the FA now has no financial obligation to the franchisees, in fact have weasled their cut of 10%, I believe, from distributions from broadcaster and more from the Socceroos/Matildas deal. That money is to be, as per FA charter, used to benefit ALL of football - and being a non for profit sporting association all of the funds have to be accounted for and go back into the game. In my opinion (yes it is just my opinion), those funds should be distributed to the lowest grassroots clubs first, the armature leagues, the smaller state leagues etc, help with facilities, insurances, coaching courses etc... the benefits will trickle up and with a full pyramid in place will benefit ALL of the playing base, 700+ clubs and our football ecosystem immensely.. F@ck your plastic, made for television soap opera league if they are not interested in being part of this - the cheese stands alone. Sook - toys out of the pram because you get called on your agenda driven nonsense. You want 'flat Earth ffootball'- go elsewhere while the rest of us deal with reality. Sorry no self respecting ancestor of Eratosthenes would claim the earth was flat, you are barking, as always, up the wrong tree. So, apart from hurling personal insults (or lame attempts at them) do you have any legitimate reason to insist that existing clubs form some sort of rebel league for your amusement?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Another great VIC club throws its hat into the ring.... Rangers combining with Whittlesea council to finally make good use of Epping "Wembley" Stadium.... momentum is growing. https://twitter.com/smfcmike/status/1460412856726265888/photo/1
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+x+x+xLol @ anyone who thinks that any state league club needs FFA/FA money. This is why the FA have been resisting this for so long because alot of these clubs are significantly better placed financially than most of the A League clubs. The franchise model dictates that the governing model gives their respective clubs money for assorted things thus the clubs becoming vassals of the governing body. "Clubs" will never be a part of the A League setup due to their inherent independence. Any current state league club who wishes to become a part of the A League need to understand what they are signing up for & be advised to read the franchise agreement very very carefully. As for the NSD take into consideration the original formation of the NSL. Australian football can just snap its fingers & create a national competition like no other sport in Australia can. We all know that the NSD is viable, it's the FA who doesn't want it & will do anything to water it down. Nonsense - its not bout individual club finances, it's about league viability and you either don't get that or you are being deliberately ignorant in the hope you are speaking to fools. Because the A-league clubs are very viable.. Aren't the Jets still owned by numerous other A-league clubs? What?!! That is absolutely Farcical if true. How could FA allow it ?
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Anyway , I do believe FA should just fund a 2nd division. I mean , isnt it their job to advance the broad interests of the game? Isnt a 2nd division in the broad interests of the game? Surely it is . Why doesnt FA just TRY. Sometimes you just have to try , right ? So what if it fails? Its just a bit of money , right? Just TRY. . do it now! Think of the potential rewards .
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike Your stances over the big picture incl SwamP. The AAFC/NSD should do just as Lowy did in similar vain starting up his own comp though he made sure to have the FFA's arms of approval but the AAFC/NSD without caring the link with the FA. Seriously you guys, and feck what happens in the USA by the way. Sure they could IF they wanted to I expect BUT where does that put the games perspective once again in our country. Divided more and more just as we've had for the last 16yrs (granted we needed Pro football but could have been done alot better) and where has that got us in the big picture overall for the game itself and below ? oh that doesn't matter. A stand alone Pro league and everything underneath run its own course, how good is that. That isn't making sense. Why be settled we have 1 Pro comp and another comp running its own course. FFS our pissy little country can't operate like that. We've seen all the money thrown into the AL hasn't turned out that great to date, sure we finally got more exposure, commercialism but we sure went backwards there eh, peaks and valleys with all the Fox $$'s, Hyundai etcetc and went to crowds dwindling the last 5yrs big time. Now we have have changed the shop sign frontage CBS throwing in the can, honeymoon period and all incl the APL with a number of floudering Franchise's. Lets see whats to become in the next 5yrs, I'm so not the chicken before the egg. NSD needs to be up and running ASAP for the big picture of our game, RIP Mike was right behind it and your right its all political more than enything else even pre APL/CBS. The FA are the whimps in this politically for their concerns of APL lashback no doubt about it imo. To do this right instead of creating what did occur so long ago (why repeat history) its on the FA to endorse this so its working with our governing body period....as someone quoted elsewhere below....... "Right now it really comes down to the courage of the FA Executive and FA Board to put in place the green light for a start date."
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI can't believe people still blame the NPL clubs for not having the NSD. It should be up the the governing body to organise a model and allow clubs to meet the requirements set out. Once the pyramid is open, the best clubs will rise to the top and the crap clubs will go to the bottom. I blame them. If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems. IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start. It takes a single Club owner to stop it. If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?) If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term. An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure. It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions. On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated. Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above". "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors) and simply nominate a date for implementation. I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year. Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months. It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition. I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. I read your first sentence and LMAO. When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down? It's always the Clubs that start them. What? Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs? Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL. What about every other single competition in the bloody country? What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years. What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues? What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership". Don't you think that is normal? Twit. What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England? They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below. Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association. The association didn't form the clubs or the competition. It didn't exist.
Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.
They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing. It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track. It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.
After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time. Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA. For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.
The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA). The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively. The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well. All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.
The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up. I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.
People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation. People own football not FIFA. Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much. In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century.
Different with professional teams and competitions. Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA. The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it. Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future. The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell. More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments. Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals. It's all win for them. Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business.
I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right. That's the optimist in me.
So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, t here is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way. But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail..... CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that. Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend. Rinse and repeat..... Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now. Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing???? Mono, you sad, provincial proto-facist, you take exception to the above and make an argument about FIFA recognition, well - thats true - except that in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) groups of clubs have successfully started several additional national competitions and the FA there made one of them the Div 2 with all the recognition that entails (except Pro-Rel). So I say again, nothing to stop the AAFC. What is the name of this thread again and what is it based upon? All I am saying is I agree with the late great Mike Cockerill's reading of the situation that the barriers are financial and political, not legal..... He was right then, and he is postumously even more right today.... #RIPMike Your stances over the big picture incl SwamP. The AAFC/NSD should do just as Lowy did in similar vain starting up his own comp though he made sure to have the FFA's arms of approval but the AAFC/NSD without caring the link with the FA. Seriously you guys, and feck what happens in the USA by the way. Sure they could IF they wanted to I expect BUT where does that put the games perspective once again in our country. Divided more and more just as we've had for the last 16yrs (granted we needed Pro football but could have been done alot better) and where has that got us in the big picture overall for the game itself and below ? oh that doesn't matter. A stand alone Pro league and everything underneath run its own course, how good is that. That isn't making sense. Why be settled we have 1 Pro comp and another comp running its own course. FFS our pissy little country can't operate like that. We've seen all the money thrown into the AL hasn't turned out that great to date, sure we finally got more exposure, commercialism but we sure went backwards there eh, peaks and valleys with all the Fox $$'s, Hyundai etcetc and went to crowds dwindling the last 5yrs big time. Now we have have changed the shop sign frontage CBS throwing in the can, honeymoon period and all incl the APL with a number of floudering Franchise's. Lets see whats to become in the next 5yrs, I'm so not the chicken before the egg. NSD needs to be up and running ASAP for the big picture of our game, RIP Mike was right behind it and your right its all political more than enything else even pre APL/CBS. The FA are the whimps in this politically for their concerns of APL lashback no doubt about it imo. To do this right instead of creating what did occur so long ago (why repeat history) its on the FA to endorse this so its working with our governing body period....as someone quoted elsewhere below....... "Right now it really comes down to the courage of the FA Executive and FA Board to put in place the green light for a start date."
well said brother.
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