Formidable?

With due respect, the problem with thinking this is:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/_/id/10884/eng-in-aus-odi-series-2017-18; and this;

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/_/id/17974/aus-in-ind-2017-18

and the Champions Trophy before it. 

That team structure you think is formidable has been completely outgunned by England and India consistently.

The Aussie run of ODI losses predates the Warner and Smith bans. Warner's loss may aggravate the symptoms, the bans are not the cause.

1 Lynn
2 Finch
3 Smith 
4 Warner
5 Carey+/Whoever is the best keeper batsman
6 Agar/Maxwell 6
7 M Stoinis 5
8 MMarsh 4
9 Cummins 3
10 Starc 2
11 Hazelwood 1

I would go for something like this. All the 4th bowlers are failing, so I would play 3 all-rounders and bat to 8. England will be roads, so a captain will enjoy having 6 bowling options. Finch, Smith and Warner all will have enough time to get hundreds, with Lynn's role to tee off.

The problem is - Australia will not do it - when the reality is - its 2015 side with Maxwell, Faulkner,  Watto, with MMarsh on rotation was very much constructed in the same manner. Only Finch, Warner, Smithy and Clarke with Bailey on rotation were the 4 specialist batsmen. After that it was Watto, Maxi and his offies,  Faulkner with Haddin. Then 3 big quicks (Mitch J, Haze and Starc with Cummins on rotation). It batted to 8, and had 6 bowling options.

The 2015 team was very well put together - and Australia were favorites a long way out and before the World Cup. I don't see why Australia is going backwards when England is going forwards in terms of selection policy.

Carey, Agar/Maxi, MMarsh and Stoinis are able to be replaced by anyone and their batting order be flexible. My point is more just the 3 big quicks in selection, 6 bowling options, and batting deeper.

And it is no coicidence imo, that the team Australia played in the 2015 WC final was built in the exact same manner; NZ also played an allrounder at 5 down with Grant Elliot with batting to 8.

Now everyone praises England, when all they've done is take it to the next level and play as many allrounders in the bowling unit as possible. That is, drop Jimmy and Stuart, and bring in the likes of David Willey at 9 and Plunkett at 10. With Stokes at 5, Buttler at 6, Ali at 7, Woakes at 8, Willey at 9; then Rashid at 10 (10 FC centuries) and number 11 - Plunkett (3 FC centuries) they are able to rebuild from anything and so often do. They are also then blessed to have 2 spinners and 4 seamers.

I don't think it has to be taken to England extremes who I am sure would find a place in their team for a Mitch Starc or Jasprit Bumrah (they just do not have one). But there is a lot of backwards thinking going on with both Safrica and Australia re: ODI. Injury and lack of form is ravaging NZ allrounders this time and it is very much where NZ is soft. CdG is great for tests, questionable in limited overs, Corey Anderson is walking hospital ward who has rarely bowled in 2 years, and Santner and Todd Astle are injured... Colin Munro is unable to buy a run in ODI, and NZ gave up trying to replace Grant Elliott and simply made Latham the wicket keeper to compensate for it.

Even Pakistan has Shadhab Khan comming in at 8 these days (or Faheem Ashraf) with Hafeez chucking a few overs as the 6th bowling option. Imad Wasim their current number 9 averages 37 in odi and over 40 in FC. This helps to compensate a lot for some of the more limited top order batting talent.

Teams are batting deeper - much beyond 7. And increasing the bowling options - 6 min. And it does appear to have a lot of merit on England's pitches. I really do not understand why Australian selectors went backwards after dropping Faulkner. All the games he had won Australia with the bat - was a clear indicator that he needed to be replaced by an allrounder to maintain the same team balance!

The only strong team not doing this currently is India. But they still win because Kohli (supported by Sharma). Even then, K Pandya at 7 could well be in India's world cup team with H Pandya at 8, Kuldeep at 9, Yadav/Kumar/Ahmed/Whoever at 10 and Bumrah at 11. Their bowling options are often limited because there's so many wicket keepers in the team (Dhoni, Rayudu, Pant, Karthik and Rahul!) Even then K Jadhav often plays as the 6th bowling option. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if India start to pick Krunal when Hardik is back from injury are start batting to 8 also. The irony for India is that they often have Jadeja and Ashwin batting at 8 and 9 in tests.

I'm looking forwards to this ODI. It is a few minutes walk from my place and I'm a Tas Cricket Assoc member.

The only issue today is in the outside seating in the members, it faces south.

There is a cool sea breeze blowing from the the south/ south east ATM. We will  receive it on the nose!


Conversely, the Southern Stand will be protected, warm and very pleasant to sit in, as it is sheltered from this cool breeze. Now, members  can't move around the  ground like we used to do and be able view  the cricket  from the Southern Stand to block out the wind.

Faulkner has had a knee injury issue for a while now.

I'm not sure he will ever be able to bowl as a FC cricketer again.

In addition, Faulkner hasn't performed consistently enough with the bat in FC cricket. I've seen him underperform many times in the Shield.

Faulkner is not the solution per se. His hitting to the leg side while batting, and his slower ball variations have been found out in both internationals and the IPL.

I agree with you and said to Baggers that he was not the solution earlier in the week. His loss of form and effectiveness, and Watto being left out, is what I identified as the downturn in the Australian limited overs team success. The fact is - they have not be ably replaced. MMarsh and MStoinis are "sort of" replacing Watto (which is immensely difficult because Watto was simply an ATG of world limited overs cricket) - and noone has replaced Faulkner. At all.

I am sad to hear that Faulkner's FC career may have ended. I hope he gets back into the List A and T20. I found following his career really exciting and enjoyable for about 3 or so years when he was on top and an international superstar. The guy was a winner and a game changer. Often put in for the Stars as well.

But his batting was always going to get found out eventually. Wide yorkers have finished him there (pardon the pun) in limited overs.

I was surprised his bowling did as well, though. Then again, bowling 5 balls out of 6 as slower balls, all the batsman had to do was set for the slower ball each time. Being late on a quicker one only matters when its a fast yorker.

Even Mustafizur is struggling these days on pitches not giving grip (and he has the best slower ball in world cricket - he may as well be classified as "fast spin"). A yorker like Starc or Bumrah - that is the way to go - take the pitch out of the equation!

Great view in Ricky Ponting stand, but it is cool.

zampa bowling way to fast 
if you go for 6 slow it down and bowl a similar delivery. It will often get skied particularly if you use the crease

with 1st class averages and strike rates
warner 42.61 (98.14)
Finch 38.39 (88.42)
smith 45.44 (87.21)
lynn 37.13 ( 96.61)
maxwell 33.08 (119.77)
M Marsh 37.33 (92.29)
wade 31.43 (85.69)

bowlers with econ rate/ave

Starc 19.91/4.89
Cummins 28.42/5.23
Hazelwood 26.59/4.8
Nathan lyon 34/4.8

argument for replacing one of the RH bowlers with faulkner and zampas not bad either. Travis Head and Stoinis have done well too so those would be four reserves

average score around 7-296 including around 15 extras which is decent. England and India have freakish teams this cycle though so will need a bit of luck. Wish we had a better batting option than carey?

compare to Englands 11

Morgan 38.41 (89.7)
Ali 28.91 (102.78)
Bairstrow 40.19 (103.3)
Buttler 44.51 (118.55)
Hales 38.14 (99.18)
Root 48.67 (85.07)
Roy 36.88 (105.99)


we have a large advantage over them in bowling but its arguably the most formidable odi batting line up in history

Now add Root, Stokes, Woakes,  Willey, Rashid and Plunkett England batsmen just keep coming at you.

I included root. Stokes is the only batsmen in the rest of that list really worth mentioning

fortunately their bowling is a weakness in their team but they are rightful favourites

Yeah that's what Aus in odi in Aus and ind in Eng tests thought. 

Then Woakes broke their hearts with the bat.

As for Willey - he's broken hearts too.

big partnership hope its a sign of a good batting wicket

every player has the occasional performance, Woakes averages 27 after 80 matches and Willey averages 18 after 42 matches.

Woakes destroys teams while batting at 8.

Willey does it at 9!!!!!!

I am making one post today. I dont want Hazlewood or Cummins in our WC attack unless they rediscover how to bowl the yorker.

Lol!

I will make one more. We will lose this because we dont have batsmen in the middle order to steady the ship and then take it deep the way the Saffers did. 

Yeah. True.

Just arrived back from the  game.

I didn't really have a chance to post anything at the match , because it was such a social occasion in the Tasmanian Cricket Association members' stand and bar. It was like a big party!

The light was very bright in the day part of the game, because the late spring sun shone in some of the clearest, unpolluted skies  on the planet - perfect conditions for cricket.

One mate told me he heard the crowd was circa 5 000. Did anyone hear anything different? I thought  it was disappointing. One good thing is all the drunken yobbos, bogans and boo boys, now seem to prefer 20/20!

One phenomenon for live viewing was how the Aussie yellow strip stood out and was conspicuously bright, whereas the SA green strip blended too much into the background, particularly under lights.

In the Aussie innings I changed positions to get pretty much behind the SA pace bowlers - Steyn, Rahada and Ngida. All bowled with lovely rhythm.




 

Whilst Marsh, Stoinis, Carey and Maxwell (when it was already lost) had good knocks I dont think anyone in the lineup is really capable of putting together knocks as well put together as those from Faf and Miller

Didn't notice this in the game.

When Australia bowled, we were high up in the Ricky Ponting Stand, and, side on to the bowlers.

Zampa appeared to bowl flat and too fast, with no loop and flight. He looked like a pace bowler.