Youth development in Australia, where did it all go wrong?


Youth development in Australia, where did it all go wrong?

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aok - 27 Aug 2019 3:04 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:20 PM

That's very very rough on the kids.

It is but at least the option is there for them to do it.  So credit where credit is due. 

Apparently before we got to town there was no NPL for the area because the Newcastle mob didn't want to travel up the coast once or twice a season..


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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.


I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

Point 3 has real merit imo.
As much as I believe learning the skill/possession game we lacked in the past our physicality sure helped in the early years.
I recall many opponent NT players after our games saying we sure let them know we were there !
Granted that in part made up for our lack of skill, I feel if we kept a little of this character in our style of play (ala Uruguay/Argies etc) to this day putting the fear in your opponent is a +.

Point 4 sososo much.


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bettega - 26 Aug 2019 6:40 PM
Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM

1.  The point remains that we were competitive against European and Sth American opposition, doesn't matter how easy it was to get there.  Just prior to the establishment of the A-League, Australia was the 4th best performed country in the U20 WC, that is, over the entire history of this age group.

2.  Actually, Nigeria and Ghana were quite strong in the early years of this age group.

3.  There might be something in this, although sounds a little bit speculative.  Probably incorrect to suggest we were any more physical than European teams.

1. This is answered by his point 3
2. They were playing overage players due to birth certificate issue 
3. Its true even the old heads of the AIS have come out and said they we dont look enough these days at physicality in our juniors and pointed to emerton who was an elite athlete as a junior. 
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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:20 PM
aok - 27 Aug 2019 2:15 PM

The zone we are in is captured by Newcastle.  Pretty sure Lismore plays in the Gold Coast comp.

It's a 5.5hr bus ride.  4 hours if you drive to Newy but the kids all have to go by bus.  The bus takes all 4 teams which is why it's an all day affair.

That's very very rough on the kids.
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bluebird - 25 Aug 2019 5:15 PM
No competition for places. Reward for little effort

Play 1 season, win the league, go overseas, come back as a marquee

This. The creation of the A league has actually been detrimental to the prospects of our national team. Previously in the nsl, players were semi pro so amyone even half decent like a Danny Allsopp or a Danny invincible left as early as possible and did not have the safety net of coming home. This meant we had a lot more players abroad. I remember reading the crawford report when it came out and it said they estimated that about a third of our overseas players would return home to a fully pro league which ended up being very accurate. given we had a lot more teams before in the NSL, the combination of less teams in the a league, a third of our players returning home to take local spots, less incentive to go overseas (or stay overseas) and more money to afford overseas imports (there are a lot more now than in the nsl) means we have a severely reduced national pool to choose from. I predicted it at the time...

The golden gen was "created" due to our national league being so poor and poorly paid. The success of our national league does not directly translate to the success of national team and is why i support our league being run by the ffa and still do. 

One way to improve our national pool would be to have a minimum of number of under 21 players selected on matchday. Say 4 minimum. This would a. Promote more youth which has been a problem area. B. Introduce more australian players into the professional world of football increasing our natiinal pool. C. Prevent clubs from recruiting drifters, deadwood types such as a Matty Simon, Anthony Golec etc who are never going to be called up to the socceroos again but coaches turn to because they dont trust youth 
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aok - 27 Aug 2019 2:15 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:02 PM

Gold Coast too far away?

The zone we are in is captured by Newcastle.  Pretty sure Lismore plays in the Gold Coast comp.

It's a 5.5hr bus ride.  4 hours if you drive to Newy but the kids all have to go by bus.  The bus takes all 4 teams which is why it's an all day affair.


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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:02 PM
miron mercedes - 27 Aug 2019 1:12 PM

Mid north coast NSW.

Gold Coast too far away?
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miron mercedes - 27 Aug 2019 1:12 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:28 PM

whilst I admire his current dedication..I have to ask where you live that his closest NPL club is 5.5 hours away ?

Mid north coast NSW.


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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:28 PM
TimmyJ - 27 Aug 2019 12:07 PM

Play with his mates in the suburban comp.



whilst I admire his current dedication..I have to ask where you live that his closest NPL club is 5.5 hours away ?

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TimmyJ - 27 Aug 2019 12:07 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:00 PM

Will he join a more local league or just give it up entirely? 

Play with his mates in the suburban comp.





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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:00 PM
neverwozza - 27 Aug 2019 12:14 AM

My kid travels by bus 5 and half hours one way every second week to play in the Newcastle NPL comp.  (Leaves at 6am - returns at 10pm.)  They have a squad of 16. Some weeks he gets a full match (less say 10 minutes) other times he only gets 20 minutes.

He will probably give it up next year because of that exact reason.  I understand why the coach does it but I also understand from his perspective why he's losing interest.


Will he join a more local league or just give it up entirely? 
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neverwozza - 27 Aug 2019 12:14 AM
theFOOTBALLlover - 26 Aug 2019 10:02 PM
I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Yes but was it worth having your ears bleeding the from whinging from the parents of the kids who weren't getting much game time. 

My kid travels by bus 5 and half hours one way every second week to play in the Newcastle NPL comp.  (Leaves at 6am - returns at 10pm.)  They have a squad of 16. Some weeks he gets a full match (less say 10 minutes) other times he only gets 20 minutes.

He will probably give it up next year because of that exact reason.  I understand why the coach does it but I also understand from his perspective why he's losing interest.




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theFOOTBALLlover - 26 Aug 2019 10:02 PM
I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Yes but was it worth having your ears bleeding the from whinging from the parents of the kids who weren't getting much game time. 
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rusty - 26 Aug 2019 11:38 PM
When was the last time you saw a kid kicking a soccer ball in the street?  When I was a kid that’s what we did, after school and on weekends, go outside and play.  The streets and ovals would be full with kids.  These days kids are stuck inside on their playstations, Xbox’s and ipads.  They still play structured sport to please their parents but once it’s over they zip inside and go online.  The passion for sport just isn’t there anymore.  

It's not really about the ps4s and xbox's etc, it's more about the 15-18 year olds who are extremely talented quitting football to chase skirt more often.
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When was the last time you saw a kid kicking a soccer ball in the street?  When I was a kid that’s what we did, after school and on weekends, go outside and play.  The streets and ovals would be full with kids.  These days kids are stuck inside on their playstations, Xbox’s and ipads.  They still play structured sport to please their parents but once it’s over they zip inside and go online.  The passion for sport just isn’t there anymore.  

Edited
6 Years Ago by rusty
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I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Edited
6 Years Ago by theFOOTBALLlover
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AJF - 26 Aug 2019 8:45 PM
Waz - 26 Aug 2019 7:11 AM

This is BS. Roar fleeces juniors at other clubs with it "preparation centre" programs where U5's are paying $1,225 per year, which then funds the Roar "free" academy (check out link below). The scheme is so good that MV has started doing the same in Vic, with many gullible parents coughing up $2,500K to play in community leagues with promises of MV trials.

https://forum.insidesport.com.au/FindPost2616380.aspx

I wouldn't put it past them running scams like this, typical Roar though bunch of scabs. 


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Waz - 26 Aug 2019 7:11 AM
sethman75 - 26 Aug 2019 2:31 AM


Since the regulations were changed several clubs have invested and two - Roar/WSW - operate free Acadamies ending pay-for-play ... both faced local opposition in doing it though. 

This is BS. Roar fleeces juniors at other clubs with it "preparation centre" programs where U5's are paying $1,225 per year, which then funds the Roar "free" academy (check out link below). The scheme is so good that MV has started doing the same in Vic, with many gullible parents coughing up $2,500K to play in community leagues with promises of MV trials.

https://forum.insidesport.com.au/FindPost2616380.aspx









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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.
Qualifying may be easier but we came 4th in 91 and 93, our best ever results. In 95 & 97 we made it out of the group stages

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.
Actual results in below dont back this up, Asia and Africa have always been thereabouts, but Sth America and Europe have always dominated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_U-20_World_Cup

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).
Same could be said of the German and Eastern European sides of the time, also read any review of Argentina at Italia 1990 and you may be surprised at the anti-football they displayed.

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.
Agree 100%

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.











Edited
6 Years Ago by AJF
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Waz - 26 Aug 2019 10:57 AM
Barca4Life - 26 Aug 2019 10:04 AM

I disagree. The FFA didn’t put enough time into the A League which is why it’s imploding. That’s the problem with the centralised model - you can’t put enough time anywhere - A League or otherwise. 

Plus the A League have been specifically excluded from youth development and only expected to blood youngsters 18+ after they graduate AIS

Although I agree with you the FFA hasn’t focussed enough in this area. In theory the new model should allow the FFA to concentrate on youth development from age 4 upwards. It’s alarming though to see they might be running the NSD which suggests someone hasn’t learned past lessons. 

Lastly, we’ve never been good at youth development - if you took the list of golden generation that people always use to say we were good once to any football nation they’d laugh at you and say - “is that it??” 

The more we look to a failed past the more we risk making the same mistakes. Youth development was hamstring by pompous  club committees who allowed nepotism to flourish; political local football administrations more concerned with stopping their neighboring association getting something they didn’t have than advancing football, and a national administration that was basically just rooted 

Fair points Waz.

To be fair for the FFA the introducing of the curriculum has seen a bigger emphasis on skill and technique in our young players more than any time before even way back to the golden generation.

Largely due to SAP and the coaching they receive at elite level and often than not has seen a upskill on technical development and the amount of players I’ve seen at youth level going back maybe the last 8 years has come along way are a lot better technically.

The down side is maybe they are overcoached and often we struggle to see players think for themselves but that’s something that can be improved on.

I do agree they need to focus more on it, as these things also need to evolve as well plus it cops a lot of stick from sideline critics so i think it’s important these things get bigger priorities in the future.
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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

1.  The point remains that we were competitive against European and Sth American opposition, doesn't matter how easy it was to get there.  Just prior to the establishment of the A-League, Australia was the 4th best performed country in the U20 WC, that is, over the entire history of this age group.

2.  Actually, Nigeria and Ghana were quite strong in the early years of this age group.

3.  There might be something in this, although sounds a little bit speculative.  Probably incorrect to suggest we were any more physical than European teams.

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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

What are you doing here??? You are making far too much sense for this thread.

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neverwozza - 26 Aug 2019 3:08 PM
sydneyfc1987 - 26 Aug 2019 12:19 PM

TBH I think you are actually agreeing with him. Belgium did change but we didn't. I believe the Belgium FA introduce a ball mastery programme in selected schools over there to complement what the professional clubs where doing in their academies and this has had a direct link to their current golden generation. They were basically training an extra 3 mornings a week before school and purely working on technique.

For what it is worth I agree with Muzz above. I have had 4 kids play football at NPL and Association level and I have seen huge improvements at both levels of the game over the space of about 13 years. There is plenty of young talented footballers coming through but not enough opportunity at the professional level. Also you can't worry too much about what we are doing at youth level as the talent pool is so large and so hard to line up that selection of the best is a very difficult process. 

I'm with you with your 2nd paragraph, not enough opportunity is a huge issue.
Our football level has improved watching from the sideline for I also have had 2 kids play PL, the 2nd @ 19yrs so I have been around it for a while having gone through Youth as well.
No point going on about the past nowadays, whats done is done.
What I have seen over my years is our coaching "system" should be better and more provided to PL2/3 for thats where your next in line can develop from.
Current system imo has stifled out individual brilliance and turned some players into robots, play out from the back and do the same same every single play, what has happened to shuffling the cards and allowing game breakers do it.
Yes there sure is some talented kids but depending on the club TD x player gets berated not playing to the game plan.
Surely when you are seeing a player of considerable talent/skill if they express themselves through a game (depending when) you should encourage it and more so IF he gets a shot in ! compared to having to keep playing war pass's till your in the 6yard box for a tap in.
The other issue mentioned is the "club internal politics and motives" they have held back so much over the years.....so many in Club Admin are just 2faced crook full stop.
Clubs need to identify this and weed them out for their own good, its not just about the money/xyz's son etcetc......
Another point it wasn't that expensive back in the day, been mentioned countless times as well, were pushing out farfarfar too many potentials due to costs, some parents just can't shelve out $2k + for Johnny.




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1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

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Although Adelaide’s hierarchy have long held high hopes for Toure, a former Croydon Kings talent, the club had more vigorously highlighted the first-team prospects of Carlo Armiento, Louis D’Arrigo and Lachlan Brook to Verbeek when he arrived in the City of Churches in July.

But Toure immediately grabbed the attention of the 57-year-old ex-Eredivisie man.

excert taken from https://www.a-league.com.au/news/toure-keeps-leaving-verbeek-surprised-unlikely-rise-adelaide-first-team

This is a big issue and a constant issue not been talked about.

often its not how talented you are or how you perform on field, but rather who you have in your corner off field whether it be hierarchy or agents that are well connected. A lot of talented players have been released simply due to not having the right backing unfortunately their on field performances go unnoticed. In steps a coach who doesn't talk politics and against suggestions gives a genuinely talented player a go. what do you know he performs quite well.




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Tommy Juric’s 17 yo cousin Noah Botic signing a 2 year deal in the Budasleague with Hoffenhiem. 

Damned system corrupting our kids ... once upon a time they’d turn Germany down to qualify in Oceania rant rave rant rave ...
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sydneyfc1987 - 26 Aug 2019 12:19 PM
Waz - 25 Aug 2019 5:33 PM

Agree with the rest but I don't buy the argument highlighted in bold. If this were a factor then why are 1st world countries like Belgium leaping ahead of many developing nations when it comes to player development?

TBH I think you are actually agreeing with him. Belgium did change but we didn't. I believe the Belgium FA introduce a ball mastery programme in selected schools over there to complement what the professional clubs where doing in their academies and this has had a direct link to their current golden generation. They were basically training an extra 3 mornings a week before school and purely working on technique.

For what it is worth I agree with Muzz above. I have had 4 kids play football at NPL and Association level and I have seen huge improvements at both levels of the game over the space of about 13 years. There is plenty of young talented footballers coming through but not enough opportunity at the professional level. Also you can't worry too much about what we are doing at youth level as the talent pool is so large and so hard to line up that selection of the best is a very difficult process. 
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Without doubt the worst all-time take from The 'Cock. The cancer must def have been rotting his brains for him to arrive at such a conclusion.


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robbos - 26 Aug 2019 11:36 AM
Yes bring back those great heady days where we qualified for every youth cup but failed to qualify for the world cups.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/fifa-world-cup-expansion-why-australia-should-consider-going-back-to-oceania-20170111-gtp692.html

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Sebr1968 - 25 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
As much as I hated the way football was run in Australia in the past (especially the NSL era), one thing I will say, Australian youth football teams would regularly qualify for numerous FIFA tournaments and the Olympics, where they were very competitive. But over the last 15 or so years, the standard of our youth teams has gone to shit, where did it all go wrong?

Oceania having a guaranteed place at the various "junior" world cups was a factor.




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