Well there were always going to be class players above him. I am focussing on the ordinary above him. 

Gillespie I rate highly. Several classes above Broad. Gillespie ballooned his England average in the 2005 Ashes when he was way out of form and averaged a 100, and career all but nearly over, with  Kasprowicz and Lee already preferred - Dizzie was arguably only playing due to McGrath injuries wasn't he? He only played some tests v Banga as an injury recall and scored that famous 200 - but he was no longer part of Australia's main team. He was put to pasture.

Gillespie was  a very good bowler. Overshadowed by McGrath's greatness, but still a very good bowler. But he swiftly turned to rubbish in 2005, even in NZ before the Ashes, and that year finished his career bar that Bangladesh swansong.

In fairness to Warne, originally he didn't understand Siddle and Marsh both. But a bit harsh after Marsh's wickets to peg it on Sid's inclusion now, but his first innings bowling was too short.

But the decision to not bat, will be discussed. But despite England's strong start in the first of 1-100, where Root was dropped 3 times, England were in trouble at 8-226 until Butler and Leach got that partnership. That 68 run partnership got England back into the game.

In Paine's defence - Warner, Harris, Marsh, himself and Cummins, totally let him down with the bat.

God you make me laugh Baggers. Now you don't want Harris anywhere near the side because he dropped a catch off Hazlewood and you are glad he injured himself. Meow!!!! They've dropped a couple off Cummins as well including Smith, so should we sack them all? How about we just sack Haddin as the fielding coach, after-all his fielders have been known to walk on the field with sand paper. Thank God I don't live next door to you, I probably would have seen a TV set go flying through the window on that one.

What was everyone really expecting anyway? They drop a batsman for a bowler to supplement the bowling attack (Langer admitted that is what they were doing), like they do on a regular basis, that is why Marsh has played so many tests (31 at the moment). They have the longest tail they've had for a while now without Starc, nor Pattinson in the side. You can stop calling Cummins an allrounder he now has an average of 10 in India, SA and England, he's a bowler only.

Hazlewood has once again shown his true colours. He has a one off good test where he took 9/115, a test we lost because Stokes took the long handle to him and Cummins, putting the rubbish out for collection. The other 3 tests 11/322 that's basically an average of 30 in a series where numerous bowlers are around 20. Before you argue that you have to look at everything Cummins has an overall average for the series of 20. a best match figures of 7/103 so the other tests he took 21/454 average 21.5. Jofra Archer av 17.5 best bowling of 8/85 other tests 14/295 average 21. Quality bowlers remain consistent across all tests, and aren't one show ponies. Sure they can have a one off bad test, all bowlers do, but surely the reverse of multiple bad tests with an occasional good one is not a reason for continued selection, especially when you lose the particular test where that good bowling effort occurred. Look at India and South Africa recent series if you want more proof. Cummins too has had dropped catches off him as well. But only Lyon has a bowled in this innings, maybe the bowlers should attack the stumps more and stop relying on poor batting shots for the catches.

But for me the final nails in the coffin is 1) Smith at the start of the day's play said that Australia important to take some wickets with the new ball, and the new ball bowlers failed to deliver but in general bowled poorly. Nearly 400 to win now that is a lot of pressure now on the batsmen. The record run chase is 404 back in 1948 at Headingly with Bradman and Morris putting on a 300 run partnership. But records are meant to be broken and we have Warner and Smith. And 2)..of the 4 tests Hazlewood played it is looking like England 2 wins Aust 1 win and a draw, and to me that would have resulted in England winning the Ashes, so Baggers remind me how Australia's retention of the Ashes is due to Smith, Cummins and Hazlewood, because I just don't see it? The way I look at it it's like giving someone a headstart in a race and then saying they're the best in the world when they win. That's like cheating. Sort of like when someone uses a piece of Sandpaper to help you swing a ball, not that we've ever seen that happen. But there is still a little hope that Australia can get out of this mess, it's England maybe weather.

But ultimately the selection of Marsh was good, because he has taken 7 wickets that kept Australia in the hunt, because I for one had no idea where the next wicket was coming from, the bowling has been that bad. I've read excuses of being too tired and maybe it has some relevance to Cummins as he played the world cup, but so did Archer, but the others it doesn't apply. In the past they played 6 tests plus numerous FC matches, ODI's during an Ashes tour, with no complaints. But wasn't that the reason why they were rotating the bowlers, but that stopped as soon as Cummins and Hazlewood joined forces, now they supplement the bowlers at the expense of of an already weak batting line up and let the blame drop solely on the batsmen. And if they are tired then they're soft unfit powder puffs with hearts as big as peas. As Billy Ocean said "When the going gets tough, the tough get going"

The excuses like Baggers has maintained that Hazlewood is not a good "death Bowler" are rubbish. Guess what, this is test cricket, you are going to come across all scenarios during the course of a game, bowlers don't get to pick and choose what the batsman are allowed to do, they have to adapt and if a bowler can't then replace him with someone that can handle the different scenarios.

"Best bowling attack in the world" what a load of.....

There is still hope for Australia Warner is due to keep selectors off his back, but I did come across this bit of history over the last 70 years this is the list of batsmen that were fortunate enough to play around 15 tests overseas, look how many opportunities Warner has had compared to others and many on this site regard him as a class act.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=5;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=30;qualval1=innings;spanmin1=15+Mar+1960;spanval1=span;team=2;template=results;type=batting

At least they saw the light on Khawaja. but why has it taken so long on Warner. But if he scores 70 in the final innings he goes ahead of S Marsh, and we all know how much he has copped in the media and on forums. And if he scores a century he may manage to squeeze past Watson, another who copped it but at least he could bowl. And neither played anywhere near the matches Warner played.

Burns, whose dropping we all see was unjust, is not the answer. At 31 we may get 4 years out of him but his best days are probably on the downhill slope. Perseverance with 26 year old Bancroft should have occurred but the future lies with Renshaw if he can just find some form, he is the only batsman, apart from Burns, with a century at international level and it was against Pakistan Australia's next opponents. We also need consistency from batsmen and Head at least does show some of that but selectors decided to drop him? Another is Patterson, though his form against the Dukes was rubbish, he has been consistent without the centuries, he won't win Australia matches as he has very few centuries at FC level, but he can make a good partnership with Smith with his regular 30 or 40. Another one is Handscomb who has 2 centuries at international level both against Pakistan. I'll be watching how Pucovski goes in the first Sheffield Shield matches, bit concerned with his mental aspect, but he's young and should overcome gradually.

Lol - good morning Mike. Tell us how you really feel about CA selection?

But I have a serious question for you, what is it that Hazelwood is doing wrong in your opinion?

If Hazelwood said "Mike, how should I bowl differently?" - what would you say to him?

Please note - telling him to bowl the ball first delivery into his own head and be concussion subbed out of the game for Pattinson is not an aceptable answer.

Hazelwood and siddle were pretty loose this game to be fair

Cummins was too in the first innings from what I saw. Probably hungover from celebrating the ashes. This test has had an intensity gap imo

looks like the eternal debate over whether a good bowler is world class or ordinary when they are in between :D

I hope we give pattinson more opportunities though. He is in the world class category if he can warm to test cricket

No Paddles I'd tell him to emulate McGrath.....you know, roll the ankle on the ball during warm up!

You've known me for a couple of years now and I've never changed my opinion, and nothing has changed. His line is too wide of off. Quality batsmen let him go through to keeper. Boring bowling. Top of off is the line we are all taught as 6 year olds, he seems to have forgotten that. Right line, right length hits top of off. I thought in the 3rd test he had corrected slightly and it showed in the results, but it is hard to judge when England were just throwing the bat. As soon as runs are scored off him he reverts back to the wide of off. He sort of prioritises runs scored rather than attacking wickets. He has to forget runs scored as they happen it is the job of the batsmen to do so. Top of off makes them play every delivery and if they miss LBW or Bowled and playing all deliveries catches are edged. It really is that simple on all pitches all around the world. He has nothing else except line and length. His line to left handed batsmen is also wrong all deliveries seem to pitch outside leg, automatic Not Out maybe copy Broad and go around the wicket.

Now it is left to our weakest suit.. batting.. to win us these Ashes. #1,#2, #5,#6,#7 the match is in your hands. Steve Smith the master batsman, the iron man, the freak can not be expected to shoulder the entire side indefinitely. His apparent powers of concentration must wane at some time. His lieutenant Marnus the Menace has to turn his starts into a substantial 100 this time. I did not watch a great deal of last nite's play but going on England's total and the way our strike quicks struggled to take wickets that this deck is now very much in favor of the willow wielders. So hopefully their attack will also be blunted of much of its menace. Baggy Greens destiny awaits.

Fair enough, you think he is being too defensive and worried about E/R over S/R with a wider line. And I am sure you can find support for that in the stats with a lower SR despite a healthy average. When Josh was in NZ in 2016, he was hitting the channel at seemingly will. It was constant channel bowling, and he looked a million dollars. He had done the same thing in England in 2015, and really looked like the world was his oyster.

I too think he is going wide more often now, and I agree with you that the top of off stump is 6yo stuff, and not some amazing new breakthrough coaching strategy. I put the wide stuff down to the extra pace he is generating now that he wasn't back in 2016. I don't mind him whacking in an older ball to get some deviation out of the pitch, or even shortening the batsman up, but I think his first spells with the new ball should be slower, prioritizing the channel. Of course, Hadlee and McGtath only ever bowled in the channel, dropping their pace, the latter albeit with a lot of outswingers as well though. But McGrath had Gillespie and Lee at times to do the enforcer stuff.

I don't think putting a premium on runs is a bad thing, though. 80's Hadlee would refuse to bowl without a third man or a mid off. He did not care about the rest of the field at all. Ever. He was only ever going to bowl in the channel, and that's that. But he bowled in the channel to save runs, not putting out wider stuff with a field set for the batsman to chase at, which Haze may in fact be doing right now.  I also understand the SR value, especially with Lyon in the holding bowler often even when the pitch isn't turning. 

My problem is - I have seen peak Hazelwood, I saw him destroy England in 2015, and while Bird got all the wickets, Haze was a huge threat in NZ. So I will look at the numbers:

v Bangladesh	2017-2017	1	2	19.1	7	42	0	-	-	-	2.19	-	0	0
v England	2015-2019	13	24	464.1	110	1393	57	5/30	9/115	24.43	3.00	48.8	2	0
v India	2014-2019	11	20	396.3	111	1045	34	6/67	7/142	30.73	2.63	69.9	2	0
v New Zealand	2015-2016	5	10	214.1	45	718	22	6/70	9/136	32.63	3.35	58.4	1	0
v Pakistan	2016-2017	3	6	147.2	40	294	15	4/55	7/84	19.60	1.99	58.9	0	0
v South Africa	2016-2018	7	13	286.5	66	846	29	6/89	6/89	29.17	2.94	59.3	1	0
v Sri Lanka	2016-2016	3	6	84.4	19	229	7	3/21	5/80	32.71	2.70	72.5	0	0
v West Indies	2015-2016	5	9	144.2	52	322	20	5/38	7/56	16.10	2.23	43.3	1	0

in Australia 2014-2019 24 44 949.1 251 2590 99 6/70 9/136 26.16 2.72 57.5 4 0
in Bangladesh	2017-2017	1	2	19.1	7	42	0	-	-	-	2.19	-	0	0
in England	2015-2019	8	15	273.2	61	849	36	5/30	9/115	23.58	3.10	45.5	1	0
in India	2017-2017	4	7	119.0	30	295	9	6/67	6/109	32.77	2.47	79.3	1	0
in New Zealand	2016-2016	2	4	95.0	25	307	9	4/42	6/117	34.11	3.23	63.3	0	0
in South Africa	2018-2018	4	8	160.0	30	471	12	3/61	5/128	39.25	2.94	80.0	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2016-2016	3	6	84.4	19	229	7	3/21	5/80	32.71	2.70	72.5	0	0
in West Indies	2015-2015	2	4	56.5	27	106	12	5/38	7/56	8.83	1.86	28.4	1	0

Now I am not ready to make this conclusion, which you have already made Mike, but it appears that Haze feasts at home and versus the weaker batting teams like England, Pak and WI. Against the stronger batting teams like SA, (they wont be anymore without Amala and ABDV)  NZ and India - he is far less impressive. 

Haze looked better in NZ than 34, but that 39 in SA is awful. And done at a fair economy rate, which gives your argument that he is containing and not attacking a lot of credence. 

I am yet to reach a conclusion, but I would be playing Pattinson regardless. Cummins, Pattinson, let Haze fight for third with Siddle and everyone else.

Paddles, these all time wicket taking charts make for fantastic reading.

Can you set up a separate  thread for this, mate?

Also, a batting one would be good too.

I struggle to cut and paste links on this forum.

These threads would generate endless discussion and they are also interesting from the perspective of the nations  Australia have not played much. 

Not really separate thread worthy, as it aimed solely at Broad not being very good. Those are matches in England involving Broad only and not all time. Im not sure anyone wants an entire Stuart Broad thread. 

I love the forum platform here as it keeps the html from cricinfo and enables a clear visual paste. I think Mike should do it instead of just giving the links, he knows his statsguru fu too :P

I'm not the best on statsguru, but not the worst neither. I have gotten pretty good at it. If anyone wants a particular table or stat at any time, just tell me the details and Ill do my best. I have a pretty good idea what's possible and not through statsguru and I am familiarizing myself with howstat as well which is speedier. Howstat only gives predefined breakdowns for the most part, but they chose useful criteria.

I felt we didn't ball badly last night, the pitch wasn't doing anything and England actually batted quite well for a change.

We lost this test when we decided to bowl first at the Oval of all places. Honestly the stupidest decision of this Ashes by a long way, lets avoid the best batting conditions and rely on our rubbish batting lineup to put scoreboard pressure in order to not need a big 4th innings chase.

What a shock it didn't work that way. Whoever was the brains behind that decision needs a good talking too, this looked and is a typical Oval pitch i still can't believe they didn't choose to bat first.

the problem was the first innings all but marsh and lyon were pretty loose imo

even cummins was off

perhaps hungover?

The broken record is at it again. Give it a rest Mike.

Mistakes will also be made in the future regarding whether to bat or bowl, CS.

It can sometimes be difficult to decipher how a pitch will behave.

Unless injury was an issue, I'm perplexed that Patto or/and Starc, weren't selected. I was keen an an all rounder, but had no idea Marsh would bowl as well as he has. He was impressive in the Shield at Bellerive last season. From what I've read and heard, apart from not  knowing about  his tactical knowledge, Marsh may be a good future captain if he can hold his place.

I thought  we bowled quite well without luck, although Lyon had some last night.

Heh - that's where I was going with a couple of famous bowlers earlier :P

Cummins is a gun. He will put in always right now, and he seems totally professional. 

What I watched for last night in the first session was Cummins seam presentation. It seemed okay to me. Just wasn't getting regular nibble off the pitch which always contains an element of luck. I fell asleep early so I missed what went wrong in the middle, but I am guessing Siddle was short again, and Haze was wide again. 

Haha - give him his I told you so moment. He puts himself out there with his opinions, instead of playing it safe all the time. 

And lets be honest, he was on about Haze years ago. He's been all over him like a rash well before 2018. Well well well before.

And Haze's average was pretty exceptional back then. But he hasted his SR iirc.

Had Harris not spilled a sitter off a Hazlewood peach when Denly was on nothing. Had Root not had three grassed, their score w'd have a much different look about it. Poor batting and catching will cruel our last remaining chance to win this series.. not the bowling. It is now up to our batsmen to rectify an appalling series for them.

It almost never works bowling first and it definitely won't work at the Oval when the pitch will deteriorate as it always does and we have a poor batting lineup.

You can even add factors like we had 3 days rest from the previous test so why are we putting the bowlers back in straight away? It was a stupid decision from about 100 different metrics.

We gave them the best batting conditions and we will get the worse, which is what most people saw from looking at the pitch day 1 regardless. Whoever thought to bowl first really needs to improve their decision making because it cost us this test.

I think he might have been exhausted.

Which specific aspects of his bowling do you think Cummins struggled in last night, Grazor?

Length?

Line?

Lack of ability to extract movement in the air?

Deviation off the pitch? 

The English bowling numbers are woeful apart from Archer, so overall the Aus batting has been overall okay with the tail wagging well, but its been totally lead by Smith. Aus has out-batted and outbowled England this series so far:

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Series The Ashes, 2019

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Overall figures

Team	Players	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
Australia	16	5	2323	211	30.16	4	91	6/49	26.56	3	64	0	3.60
England	15	5	2375	135*	25.81	3	76	6/45	31.25	3	42	0	-5.43

England's been totally dominated for the most part. Their only saviors have been the individual brilliance of Archer and Stokes. 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
SPD Smith (AUS)	4	6	0	751	211	125.16	1143	65.70	3	3	0	88	5
MA Starc (AUS)	1	2	2	57	54*	-	64	89.06	0	1	0	7	2
M Labuschagne (AUS)	4	6	0	339	80	56.50	653	51.91	0	4	0	48	0
BA Stokes (ENG)	5	10	2	441	135*	55.12	773	57.05	2	2	0	45	13
RJ Burns (ENG)	5	10	0	390	133	39.00	896	43.52	1	2	1	49	0
JE Root (ENG)	5	10	0	325	77	32.50	740	43.91	0	4	3	34	0
JL Denly (ENG)	5	10	0	312	94	31.20	753	41.43	0	3	0	44	1
TM Head (AUS)	4	8	1	191	51	27.28	391	48.84	0	1	1	29	0
JC Buttler (ENG)	5	10	0	247	70	24.70	528	46.78	0	1	0	30	3
MS Wade (AUS)	5	9	0	220	110	24.44	412	53.39	1	0	1	30	0
JM Bairstow (ENG)	5	10	1	214	52	23.77	435	49.19	0	1	0	24	2
PM Siddle (AUS)	3	3	0	71	44	23.66	155	45.80	0	0	0	7	0
JL Pattinson (AUS)	2	4	1	69	47*	23.00	106	65.09	0	0	1	4	4
UT Khawaja (AUS)	3	6	0	122	40	20.33	188	64.89	0	0	0	17	0
CR Woakes (ENG)	4	7	1	120	37*	20.00	249	48.19	0	0	0	13	2
TD Paine (AUS)	5	9	1	159	58	19.87	333	47.74	0	1	1	18	1
NM Lyon (AUS)	5	6	2	79	26*	19.75	120	65.83	0	0	0	12	1
MR Marsh (AUS)	1	1	0	17	17	17.00	44	38.63	0	0	0	2	0
MJ Leach (ENG)	4	7	4	50	21	16.66	153	32.67	0	0	0	6	0
SM Curran (ENG)	1	2	0	32	17	16.00	39	82.05	0	0	0	3	1
JJ Roy (ENG)	4	8	0	110	31	13.75	229	48.03	0	0	1	16	0
C Overton (ENG)	1	2	0	26	21	13.00	120	21.66	0	0	0	2	0
CT Bancroft (AUS)	2	4	0	44	16	11.00	162	27.16	0	0	0	6	0
PJ Cummins (AUS)	5	8	2	62	26*	10.33	169	36.68	0	0	2	8	0
SCJ Broad (ENG)	5	8	3	49	29	9.80	127	38.58	0	0	2	5	0
MS Harris (AUS)	3	5	0	49	19	9.80	106	46.22	0	0	0	7	0
DA Warner (AUS)	5	9	0	84	61	9.33	162	51.85	0	1	3	11	0

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
MR Marsh (AUS)	1	2	29.2	5	86	7	5/46	7/86	12.28	2.93	25.1	1	0
SM Curran (ENG)	1	1	17.0	6	46	3	3/46	3/46	15.33	2.70	34.0	0	0
JC Archer (ENG)	4	7	140.0	32	380	22	6/45	8/85	17.27	2.71	38.1	2	0
PJ Cummins (AUS)	5	10	209.0	60	557	28	4/32	7/103	19.89	2.66	44.7	0	0
JR Hazlewood (AUS)	4	8	161.2	43	437	20	5/30	9/115	21.85	2.70	48.4	1	0
SCJ Broad (ENG)	5	9	160.1	28	551	19	5/86	6/177	29.00	3.44	50.5	1	0
CR Woakes (ENG)	4	7	88.0	16	312	10	3/58	4/104	31.20	3.54	52.8	0	0
MA Starc (AUS)	1	2	38.0	9	126	4	3/80	4/126	31.50	3.31	57.0	0	0
MJ Leach (ENG)	4	6	79.4	12	261	8	3/37	4/56	32.62	3.27	59.7	0	0
JL Pattinson (AUS)	2	4	65.0	15	167	5	2/9	3/56	33.40	2.56	78.0	0	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	5	10	240.0	43	664	19	6/49	9/161	34.94	2.76	75.7	1	0
PM Siddle (AUS)	3	6	97.0	21	295	7	2/52	3/102	42.14	3.04	83.1	0	0
BA Stokes (ENG)	5	7	95.1	15	362	8	3/56	4/101	45.25	3.80	71.3	0	0
C Overton (ENG)	1	2	33.5	4	107	2	2/85	2/107	53.50	3.16	101.5	0	0
M Labuschagne (AUS)	4	4	18.0	2	56	1	1/9	1/9	56.00	3.11	108.0	0	0
MM Ali (ENG)	1	2	42.0	4	172	3	2/130	3/172	57.33	4.09	84.0	0	0

England have mastered the knack of being outplayed, and still salvaging a series draw, and even series wins with their rain and 10th wicket fights for a draw.

Curran still manages to only be a swing threat in England. England has sorely missed Anderson;s swing bowling, cos if Marsh and Curran can suddenly find it in September, it was there in July and August too.

We've dropped five catches in this game too, Baggers.

Although Smith's dropped catch  last night was very difficult where the shot went to him like a rocket when he was slipping to Lyon very close to the batter.

In this game, the umpires have done us no favours too. We are constantly  given out LBW, or their batters are not given out, when a replay shows a ball would have hit the stumps,  or not hit the stumps by more than a half ball when we are batting, but not by enough to overturn the decision on the ground. So many line ball decisions are going England's way.

If the umpire had given it out originally when we were bowling  it would have stood.

I've also seen a lot of this on the Subcontinent, where the neutral umpires inadvertently favour the home team. The same when we play in Australia.  

I mean the first innings. I haven't seen pitch maps but accuracy for all bowlers seemed an issue in the first innings (I miss the first session and a half mind you due to time zones). Intensity seemed down too but haven't seen speeds. Siddle in particular lacked his usual control

I disagree.

I think a separate thread would generate endless discussion and not digress some discussion  here.

If you won't start them I'm going to  start two separate threads after the Ashes finishes.

I saw Cummins struggle in the first  innings too, but have thought he looked pretty good in the second dig.

Players like Cummins, Smith, Warner, Lyon, Hazlewood, have been touring for  a long time with the WC starting before the Ashes and may be burning out.

The cricketers who've played in most international  games, particularly  pace  bowlers must be exhausted. 

Given how well he bowled earlier in the series, with Langer anointing him as  best bowler, Siddle has struggled at The Oval.

He has looked innocuous in the Shield with the Kookaburrra at Bellerive in the last two seasons.

Again great stats, Paddles.

I had no idea there was such a difference in batting and bowling averages between the teams.