Serious question... Irvine v Rogic.. who is better? 

For the last several years i wouod have said Rogic easily (hes my fav player after all), but after watching Irvine the other night and thinking about it further i think irvine might be the more effective! 
Reminds me of cahill 02- 06, not as much technical quality and flair as kewell/viduka but mental and physical attributes combined with sound technique make him outstanding. Irvine has quite literally been the outstanding player at his last 3 clubs Ross County, Burton Albion and Hull. Captaining all 3 i believe. His physical qualities are obvious but whats overlooked liked cahill is his shooting and heading ability, but also the fact he can drive at opponents with the ball at his feet. I remember someone made a youtube of his game against celtic for ross county few years back and he must have had the most successful dribbles by far that game and from defensive midfield was very surprised.  The closest player Australia has ever produced to the great box to box mids of the 00's like Lampard/Gerrard/ yaya Toure. 

So yeah all in all im picking Irvine and think he has several more levels in him

I’m a big fan of Irvine but don’t know that his inclusion has to be at the expense of Rogic.

We play 3 CMs, so I’d be going with Mooy, Irvine and Rogic. 

Luongo hasn’t really performed for the national team since 2015. 

Effective is what you need on a two & half year qualification route with massive amounts of travel, weather factor, hostile crowds & garbage refs.  Whether Rogic is there for that or not isn't going to make a shit of difference.  It's a marathon, not a sprint.  Give me Irvine.  

This is why & I know it's an unpopular opinion with those people who think that qualifying football has to be pretty in any way shape or form is that I was a huge fan of Pim Verbeek. He knew how to qualify through an attenuated process & played the team he thought would get through. People squealed like bitches because they were too dumb to see the bigger picture however it clearly showed that Pim qualified us with games to spare, something that Ange for all of his hoopla didn't do & it came down to the wire.  In this context I postulate that Rogic is a luxury item & Irvine will hang around for that long run.  Arnie knows this & Rogic in many ways isn't the Arnie style.  

Hopefully we can find someone better than Irvine to put in the team.  He is a very average player who will probably look good against weak Asian opposition but isn’t good enough to play at World Cup level.  

Irvine the new Jedinak. Brutish and gets the job done.

I can count the number of times Rogic has really had a 90 minute impact on a Roos game on the fingers of one hand.

He turns over the ball constantly in failed dribbles and is easily taken out games with tight marking because he lacks the physicality to deal with that kind of contest.  And now he's no longer a starter at Celtic.

Another 'great white hope' who failed to deliver.

No.  Unlike Jedi he can run at something more than electric scooter pace.

Verbeek had a much better squad, even if key players were waging. Not a valid comparison.

More in the way he played them than anything.   

Did you watch Australia's 2010 world cup qualification campaign? Australia got incredibly lucky. I remember Australia going to China just to park the bus, it was disgraceful. China? really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfnsXoYRe5k

I thought it was a pretty fair comparison. The fact that Verbeek had a better squad than Ange only emphasizes the importance of efficiency over style in qualification. Verbeek had the cattle to establish a more modern and technical system, but instead, shrewdly, had them playing to the strengths of the squad to give Australia the best chance to qualify. By contrast, Ange had a pretty modest group of players, but was too arrogant to realize they lacked the technical ability to play in his complex, Guardiola-esque system. He put his own ego above the national team and in the end, we were a free kick away from missing the World Cup in the easiest confederation. 

You do understand the point of my post right? 

Yes

You should have watched the games

Irvine gets stage fright in front of goal so no. He could make a good defensive midfielder in future.

Irvine's a handy box to box midfielder, but he isn't going to crack open teams that park the bus like Rogic can.

I agree. The midfield for the Kuwait game was perfect. If Jeggo can just be a reliable workhorse and exert pressure and hit his passes without fuss that allows Irvine to play as number 10 with Mooy swapping in occasionally. A very balanced midfield. Then we have Rogic  as a sub like Brendan Rodgers uses him and Luongo as backup for Mooy.
 It is time we win ugly rather than lose pretty. Afterall we are the underdog of World football. We've got to get into that mind frame. We aren't Spain and see will never be Spain. Rogic has had a lot of minutes for little output for the Socceroos. He has no more potential. He is likely to be the player he is for the rest of his career now. He isn't a bad player but for the sake of balance in the team I think he is better suited as a sub.

Rogic is a joy to watch when he plays well, doesn't always have a good game but when he does he can be a match winner, well at least at Celtic. IMO he and Mooy are not always on the same page which causes breakdowns in attack.
I'd pick Rogic over Irvine if I knew which Rogic was turning up, Irvine might not have the ballerina feet of Rogic but you do get consistency from him.   

And you should reflect upon the campaign as a whole which is what my point was, which of course, you missed.   

Ask yourself this, would a player like Rogic be more effective over a lengthy campaign rather than Irvine?  

Some players wilt under a heavy workload and large numbers of games played, while some players thrive. Irvine is a stud, check out the number of club games he’s played in the last few years.

You want someone in the no.10 role you can count on to be there.

Ange set the boys up well, its not his fault they couldn't finish games off.

You add the benefit of Mark Schwarzer to Ange's team, we would have qualified easily. Schwarzer made Verbeek look like a better coach than he really was.

Yes i agree the most balanced midfield weve had in a long time. I think the most balanced since the Asian cup in 2015 where we had a destroyer (milligan or Jedi), mezzala (cm mid that has licence to drift) in Luongo and the link man regista / jordan henderson like shuttle runner in McKay. Ange got his tactics spot on that tourny and had a very nice blend of players. Unfortunately the success of rogic and mooy since then (neither were picked) has created a selection problem ever since.

This game agaibst kuwait we had Jeggo as kinda roaming detroyer... ball winning midfielder id call it. Mooy as deep lying playmaker and Irvine as a pure attacking midfield. Basically we had legs on either side of Mooy who has the centrepiece. One runner defensively one attacking wise. This worked well. Would have liked to have seen Mabil instead of Borello on the left as an inverted winger given mabils ability to cut in and unleash booming shots. Borrello like Leckie i feel is better as a traditional outside winger 

I agree that Rogic is only somebody you want if you know which Rogic is showing up. I cannot recall who it was against, but he was thrown into a Celtic game once as a defensive midfielder and thrived - however he was going through a great period generally. That's the kind of Rogic you want, but it feels like you only get him about 1/10 of the time. Sure he has had some problems with his body, but most of it looks to be a mental problem, he just isn't strong mentally.

I don't mind having an attacking midfielder prepared to take some risks with solid players like Mooy and Irvine around him, however I would like to see that player be Arzani when he is ready. If he isn't ready and Rogic is then perhaps he is worth trying again. Who else do we have to try and break down a solid defence?

Borrello didn't impress me against Kuwait. I haven't watched him play in Germany, however he didn't ever look likely to get past his man, not like we know Leckie can.