@mono. Posting here rather than replying to get away from the italics.

You're also missing the point. The point is it is 'childishly' easy to instil a false belief into a willing mind.

That's the point.

It is not a long bow to draw from one instilling a belief in one supernatural being to another.

Think about it. You tell your kid that Santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and god are all real when they're little. At some stage they come to the realisation or, if they hang onto the belief too long, you set them right.

For every magical being except one. 

As for whether I told my kids about Santa. I'm not sure if you would believe me or not but I was very mindful to not encourage them in their beliefs but at the same time I didn't stop them. I was very uncomfortable about them believing it given what I've said here but, like you said, they're children and it's magical for them. I realise the hypocrisy but I never, and I mean never, said things like 'Santa's coming next week', or 'you be good for santa' or 'are you getting excited that santa is coming'.

What I did do was gently prod them in the direction of asking them what they thought when they asked how was it possible. I wanted them to come to their own realisation through critical thinking. 

The kids got one present from Santa and all the rest were from us. And even then I wasn't happy about Santa getting credit.

You might think that's rank and I'm a bah humbug and that's fair enough. 

(Not that it matters but whenever the kids asked me a question about subjective things I've always put the question back on them and sometimes taken up the counter argument to make sure they're thinking these things through rather than blindly accepting what I've said or what somebody has said.) 

As for thinking we're meatbags without meaning that's not as nihilistic as you would think. It might be for you but it's not for me. That means you have ONE crack at making your life the best it can be. That's nothing to feel bad or sad about.

It's been said many times and I'm sure you've heard it. You and I are both atheists to the hundreds, if not thousands, of gods that have ever existed. I've just gone one god further than you. You don't believe in Thor, Zeus, Rha, Mars, Buddha, Tlaloc and all the rest of them. You're an atheist too.

As for saying it's 'indoctrination', it 100% is. Your kids were indoctrinated into your faith system. There's no 2 ways about it. I realise the word carries connotations of cult-like thinking but there's no 2 ways about it. It is indoctrination pure and simple. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/indoctrinate

Just own it. Your kids, and you and your family were indoctrinated. That's just a fact.

Had you grown up in any other country not christian you'd have an entirely different set of beliefs.

And if you're happy with knowing all that and you still want to believe then good for you.

You seem to think there I have some sort of double standard.  There really isn't.

If Islamacists wish to offer a subject in public schools then what they teach has be legal. Secondly, it would be subject to students wanting to enrol.  I'm pretty sure the Christians in teachers in public schools don't teach slavery as something that is allowed but not encouraged.

Yeah once again you're holding the past to the standards of today.

The life expectancy back then was less than half of today, the infant mortality rates factors higher.  Peoplel married young because there longeivity to raised children was short.  The laws of the day refleccted that.

I wouldn't be using Henry VIII as a roled model for anything, but he was the King who broke away from Catholicism because the Church didn;t allow him to do what he wanted, including divorcing his wife when he got bored.   A terible example of a Chrisian

I've never thought about their ages but I've assumed them to be mid to late teens early twenties.

Those articles say their ages are never specified in the Bible.  And from the same articles the most reasonable reason why is because their ages weren't anything remarkable for their day.  If Joseph was 90+ years then you'd think somewhere in the Bible it would have been mentioned...

And like I said do seriously think secular governments haven't and today-even ours- don't indoctrinate children and young adults?

is that why they like kids so much now - because they hold themselves still to a standard and beliefs from the stone ages? 

Fair enough Muz, we are indoctrinated... There is no room in your polarising view to consider that anyone can reason, as an adult, and draw a different conclusion than yours... fair enough not sure there is any further point to the conversation from my end. Facts are generally universally accepted and I dont accept yours.
It seems as though you view an acceptance of God(s) or any form of mysticism or spirituality as a regressive position in life that needs to be "evolved" out of and that atheism is the ONLY logical end journey of human evolution (correct me if I assume wrong). Personally I dont know either way and have lived and experienced things in life that I struggle to explain and thus am comforted by the existence of some sort of divine intervention....  I may well have "grown up" as a Hindu, or a Muslim or whatsoever if born in another place/time however that is just semantics.... You seem to be fixated by the "nuts and bolts" of religion and not what I am talking about...... 

I agree, you DO only get one crack at making your life the best it can be however I believe that a truly evolved society plants trees whose shade they will never get to sit under..... To paraphrase some old wog philosopher or another :)

Dunno-ask the public school teachers.

I don't have any objection to people's life philosophy-religious, agnostic, or atheists.

What I object to is activist atheists demanding that religion to be banned (Lets be clear: banning religion it is what they ultimately want).

The justification is that atheist societies would be healthier, when there is zero evidence that that has happened anywhere it was tried.  They get to this point by firstly assuming they themselves (typically privileged Western males) are representative of the world's people, their current morals are transferable across place and time and to every point in history.  They are ignorant that they have been shaped by and are the beneficiaries of a long line of religious societies. They rely on all the historical negatives of religion without acknowledging none of the positives,  but do the opposite for atheist societies of the past and the horrible atrocities that were done under them.

I would not go anywhere near those marxists woke minded narrative driving latte sipping tree hugging pronoun pumping paedos!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a japanese word for a society growing great when it's people plant trees for whose shade they will not enjoy.  Agreek one too I believe

This is not true.

I'd much prefer permanent incarceration or much worse. 

Coincidentally the philosophical outlook of both these ancient and modern societies is firmly grounded in their religious beliefs both old and new.... As Im sure it is for all progressive societies that share a similar sentiment... 

You think the sexual abuse children by teachers is a joke?

I am in complete agreeance with you - unless you think your language and attitude is comical?

You're the only joke here, mate.  

"The poll results are striking evidence of something that philosophers and anthropologists have long observed—namely, facts and data alone possess little persuasive force if they challenge long-held beliefs, emotional attachments, and social identities."

https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/why-data-lacks-persuasive-force

I have learned this hard lesson through interacting with friends over several issues.

I thought the Melbourne University late-2023 peer-reviewed paper on the danger of the MRNA vaccines would at least make people pause to think. It didn't.

I thought the credibility of the Cleveland Clinic's mid-2023 paper - about more MRNA jabs means higher likelihood of catching Covid - would persuade some. It didn't.

This entire Megathread is a study in human nature.

In my interaction with people over many decades, I've met very few people willing to wipe their blackboard clean in the light of refuting evidence. I did that a few decades ago.

Agreed. Your sportsmen dropping like flies thread is a testament to this. 

It's the totality of the evidence coming together:

- medical research papers confirming myocarditis particularly in young men
- excess deaths government data from developed countries, that are synced with the vaccine rollouts -- not synced with Covid waves
- the New Zealand whistleblowers data of late 2023

And yet, when you see a plethora of stories of young people dying of heartattacks, you say, "nothing to see here. Young people die of heart attacks all the time". But you're totally ignoring the scientific journal articles and the excess deaths data.

I don't expect you to jump and say this is all definitive proof - but at least, a thinking person would consider that the evidence exists, and that further investigation is warranted. Whereas, you just sweep it aside as being nothing.

Examples of recent deaths of young people:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12883057/Young-footballer-soccer-dies-death-20-heart-attack-Jeremias-Sprague-Melbourne.html

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/surf-star-and-2024-paris-olympics-hopeful-israel-barona-dead-at-34/ar-AA1jhOyD

A post-mortem has found that she died from a heart attack caused when a blood clot entered her lung.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1829133/mum-devastated-daughter-dead-heart-attack

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12681913/Kapunda-family-warning-12-year-old-Milla-Foster-died-two-days-visiting-hospital-gastroenteritis.html
The Pfizer document, at phmpt.org, says that gastro side effects occurred in 20% of side effects.

https://open.substack.com/pub/petermcculloughmd/p/death-comes-for-the-pastor?

Just admit it has not happened and move on. 

If you still claim that sportspeople (whom we see millions of around the world with our own two eyes) have dropped like flies from heart attacks because of the vaccine it's not even delusional, it's far, far worse. 

"Sudden cardiac death risk in contact sports increased by myocarditis: a case series" A 2021 paper in the "European Heart Journal" provides additional grounds for considering subclinical vaccine-induced myocarditis as a possible contributing factor to Damar Hamlin's cardiac arrest."

https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/sudden-cardiac-death-risk-in-contact?

The following review of peer-reviewed data by Melbourne University, Queensland University and Flinders University researchers, it mentions myocarditis 86 times. It is beyond dispute now that the Covid MRNA vaccines caused myocarditis particularly in young males.

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/11/8/2287


European Heart Journal - Case Reports - Sudden cardiac death risk in contact sports increased by myocarditis: a case series
https://academic.oup.com/ehjcr/article/5/3/ytab054/6154461?

The above is evidence. I'm saying that people like you, tsf, are not influenced by evidence. People like you make up the vast bulk of society where "facts and data alone possess little persuasive force if they challenge long-held beliefs, emotional attachments, and social identities."

It is your long-held belief that your GP and government doctors will not let you take something that is dangerous to your lifetime health.

There is an emotional attachment for you, because, if you ever were to admit the above data could be true, you'd have to also admit your wife and kids took this MRNA substance.

Your "social identity" is to find safety in the crowd - so your mind won't go near the above data, because you're terrified of changing your stance that would put you in the 5% of society that has been ridiculed and insulted, for example, on this forum Megathread. There is no way you would leave the safety of the crowd. It's far easier to knock back the above data saying it is nonsense.

lol

Your comment, tsf, is of greatest interest to me.

Given the problem that: (A) most people are not persuaded by evidence but go with their emotions, but (B) most of those people -- who are not persuaded by evidence -- think they make their decisions based on evidence .... how do you test it?

Here's the test.

In my previous comment -- to which you laughed -- there was a sequence of evidence:

1) The Melbourne University peer-review paper that mentioned myocarditis 86 times.

2) The European Heart Journal article that links "sudden cardiac death risk in contact sports" with myocarditis.

tsf, may I ask you: at which point did you laugh? Before 1), between 1) and 2), or after 2) ?

If you laughed before 1), then you're a mocker that makes up the vast majority of people in society - who get by living life as it comes, following the crowd, and never having to make life or death decisions based on evidence. And because the vast majority of people are like that, it means probably all the people in your social and work spheres are like you too.

Why is this of interest to me? I've said it before. It's because this attitude of mocking, in spite of evidence, is how the person will tackle the biggest question in one's life - namely, the claim of Jesus Christ's offer of Salvation.

(Title of article) - "Australians Call for Pause on Gene-Based COVID-19 Vaccines. Peer-Reviewed Manuscript Says Theoretical Benefits Not Worth the Risk"

https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/p/australians-call-for-pause-on-gene

Below is the paper by doctors at Queensland University, Flinders University, referred to in Dr McCullough's above article:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0344033823007318


Below are some key statements from the Abstract of the above paper, with my erudite commentary.

(Quote) "The haste and scale of development, production, and distribution of these new [MRNA] pharmaceuticals is unprecedented in history. Key phase III clinical trials for these products are yet to be fully completed, despite administration to billions of people."

My comment: the MRNA Covid vaccines were rushed to market with a speed that is "unprecedented in history". The usual, biggest Phase 3 test was not done. Instead, Pfizer said they combined Phase 2 and 3 ... which is double-speak for Phase 3 not being done. Essentially, this brand new MRNA technology was rushed to market, and you guys were the guinea pigs, or lab rats.

(Quote) "vaccine mandates correlate with excess mortality. Many independent data sets concur - we have experienced a pandemic of viral illness, followed by a pandemic of vaccine injury."

My comment: These Australian researchers, in their January 2024 paper, are confirming that the independent data from governments around the world are showing excess deaths correlating with the vaccine rollouts. Notice their reference to "a pandemic of vaccine injury".

"Vaccination followed later by the main viral wave. Australian excess mortality data correlates with this."

My comment: Basically, people got vaxed, and then got Covid, many times. This agrees with the Cleveland Clinic data, and from others, that the more Covid vaxes you got, the more likely you were to get Covid. Cleveland Clinic said: "Among 48,344 working-aged Cleveland Clinic employees, those not “up-to-date” on COVID-19 vaccination had a lower risk of COVID-19 than those “up-to-date”."  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.09.23290893v1.full

Remember, 2 years ago, anyone who dared say this was branded a "conspiracy nut". Now we have major university medical school researchers telling you this. But in spite of this, the crowd on the football website are usually slow on the uptake.

(Quote) "Neither risk nor cost can justify these products for the vast majority of people."

My comment: 2 years ago, if you were given a choice between listening to your GP, versus listening to some dude johnsmith (lower case) citing websites that you lot regarded as conspiracy sites, what were you expected to do? It comes down to how you process information and data. Just because it was reported on a fringe right-leaning website, did not mean it was nonsense. The doctors that were sounding the alarms are top in their field. And yet, the entire world branded them as lunatics.

Now, nearly in 2024, due to the vast amount of data that is coming through, it is safer for people like these Australian researchers to stick their neck out and tell you of the MRNA dangers. But two years ago, the doctors who were warning of the dangers are the true heroes -- the ones who risked and lost their jobs for taking a stand to warn of the MRNA dangers.

In a sense, it does not require so much guts, in early 2024, for a doctor at an Australian university to step out and publish the data of the dangers of the MRNA vaccines, since the full data is pouring out like a fire hose. But in early 2021, the signs were already there. But everyone was ignoring it, except for some brave doctors who paid the price of sacrificing their careers -- putting their patients first -- to warn of the dangers of the Covid MRNA vaccines.

(Quote) "Lack of efficacy against infection and transmission, and the equivalent benefits of natural immunity, obviate mandatory therapeutics."

Why do I keep posting the latest information, when no one heeds it? In my circle of friends, I can't think of anyone who has shifted their stance on the MRNA vaccines -- Sure, they're not taking boosters, but because of paltry reasons like "I've had enough". They're still not making decisions based on scientific data. Most are still running with the "safe and effective" message that they hear on the telly.

These two videos below are of the true heroes of Australia -- the doctors who lost their medical careers to say, more than a year ago, what is becoming more mainstream now in 2024.

Australian doctors lose their jobs due to opposing covid vaccines
https://rumble.com/v15aan1-world-premiere-conference-of-conscience-australian-doctors-finally-speak-ou.html
https://rumble.com/v15rlnb-part-2-conference-of-conscience-australian-doctors-finally-speak-out.html

https://petermcculloughmd.substack.com/cp/141196854

re: South Australian vaccine compensation win

"The Department of Child Protection (DCP) must pay compensation and medical expenses to a youth worker who developed pericarditis after getting a Covid booster under a workplace vaccination directive, the South Australian Employment Tribunal has ruled."

https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/sa/SAET/2024/2.html

My understanding of this is not that it's just because of the vaccine, but rather a worker's compensation claim.
Because he was mandated by the SA Government to be vaccinated + booster to perform his work, his adverse reaction to this is covered under worker's compensation, not compensation purely for having adverse reactions to the vaccination.

NicCarBel, do you like mincing with words, or aim at the facts.

The fact is, the guy got injured by the vaccines ... that's the starting point for this case. The big shenanigan was about who was responsible for making him get the jab. That's the political side.

But the medical side -- which is really where I'm focused -- is that he got hurt by the vaccine.

This case would not have started if the person had not been harmed by the vaccine.

Careful what you're getting into Nic. Old mate believes the earth is 6000 years old and was flooded in totality 4500 years ago. 

ok

A steady stream of information that the groupies just knock back without any thought process in their minds.

https://www.cureus.com/articles/203052-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-lessons-learned-from-the-registrational-trials-and-global-vaccination-campaign#!/

Journal Article Title: "COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines: Lessons Learned from the Registrational Trials and Global Vaccination Campaign" published January 14, 2024

(Quote from this peer-reviewed journal article) - "the estimated harms of the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines greatly outweigh the rewards: for every life saved, there were nearly 14 times more deaths caused by the modified mRNA injections (for details, see Appendix 2).

This is not isolated information. Instead it is building a massive big picture. See the videos of U.K. Parliamentary reports of excess deaths data in the U.K. government's own data.

https://www.youtube.com/@Campbellteaching/search?query=excess%20deaths