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Gyfox
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 13K,
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+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. While we have had football played here since the late C19th and the histories make interesting reading our game has always played second fiddle to the football games that are "native" to the two halves of the country ie Australian Rules Football in the southern states and the two Rugbies, Union and League, in Qld and NSW and as a result our game hasn't entered the national psyche like football has in countries where our game is dominant and participation starts in the parks and streets and via a myriad routes ends up on the terraces and in the stands. That is not our experience and is a sign of the lack of a developed football culture in our country. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level.
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bettega
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not.
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Gyfox
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 13K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004.
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melbourne_terrace
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. That is only applicable to Sydney. Every other city just had normal clubs and things evolved fairly naturally until the likes of Hill and Lowy started meddling.
Viennese Vuck
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Gyfox
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 13K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. That is only applicable to Sydney. Every other city just had normal clubs and things evolved fairly naturally until the likes of Hill and Lowy started meddling. The other states all tossed over their management system and started Federations almost straight away. It was only Victoria that didn't get on board until 1960. I don't know what happened with their clubs but that is when most of the migrant clubs were started. NSW was different to the rest of Australia though. There were about 50k players in 1957 which Vic and Qld didn't match until well after the A-League started.
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Waz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. That is only applicable to Sydney. Every other city just had normal clubs and things evolved fairly naturally until the likes of Hill and Lowy started meddling. QLD has a lot of clubs formed in the 50’s and 60’s, very often formed by merging clubs originally formed in the late 1800’s
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LFC.
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. That is only applicable to Sydney. Every other city just had normal clubs and things evolved fairly naturally until the likes of Hill and Lowy started meddling. The other states all tossed over their management system and started Federations almost straight away. It was only Victoria that didn't get on board until 1960. I don't know what happened with their clubs but that is when most of the migrant clubs were started. NSW was different to the rest of Australia though. There were about 50k players in 1957 which Vic and Qld didn't match until well after the A-League started. Sounds about right Gyfox. What has been the prob ? just like State Prems running their States as we've seen covid wise the same has gone on regards our football at the elite level, each State body thinks they can do a better job and to this day.
Love Football
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melbourne_terrace
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. That is only applicable to Sydney. Every other city just had normal clubs and things evolved fairly naturally until the likes of Hill and Lowy started meddling. QLD has a lot of clubs formed in the 50’s and 60’s, very often formed by merging clubs originally formed in the late 1800’s So did every state, but they were just more clubs in addition to existing clubs as we know them. They weren't replacing the weird district rep teams that gyfox pines for and only existed in Sydney.
Viennese Vuck
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Posts: 9.5K,
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+x+xAs an NPL member I will be strongly urging my club to abstain from this farce. Docherty cup is awesome and if we do get to the quarter final stage (which means entry to this abomination) I would hope that we just pull out of FFA cup contention and just continue with the league and Docherty (vic state) cup. Playing a group stage malarkey as a preseason warm up for the franchises, knowing that over 4 or 6 games or whatever an NPL club has no remote chance to progress is balls. So this JJ is a football person huh? Wouldn't you be interested to see how your club would fare in a round-robin group against A-League + other NPL clubs to test the waters for how thye might fare in an NSD? Or are you worried that it would show just how big the gulf in quality is (remember Sydney United is close to the best NPL side in the country, and they lost 7-1 to an ordinary Wanderers side last year). Oh of course on a purely playing perspective it would be a challenging few matches and if nothing else would be great for the boys to get the game time against professionals rehardles of the result. I'm under no dillusion that part time players could beat full time pros over a group stage. I object to the fact that the only half decent thing the FFA have done to try and connect the 99% of clubs in Australia with the 1%ers is now clearly being re-jigged to suit the needs of the dirty dozen. If the a league needs more games to qualify for acl comps then schedule more games amongst yourselves or expand the league. Beating up on part timers and taking away any even tiny hopecthey had of winning a one of game and making some excitement will ckearly ve gone. Mind you, believe it or not, I was also strongly against the rigged previous draws that allowed a guaranteed NPL spot in semis... I am passionately blind when it comes to my club but I do prefer to win things the right way.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. Gyfox, can I ask, as I am not clear by your comment, what happened to the old NSW club you supported? Did it fold ? Was it "bought out" by a migrant club? When you say the new clubs didn't relate to Australian football fans you mean Anglos right,? Also, curious as to which clubs in NSW where franchises in the 50s from what I know none of the clubs in Melbourne where even close to being characterised as such. If that happened in Sydney then yes I can see your hatred of Apia, St George, Pan-Hellenic etc would as equally as justified as mine is to Tarneit and McVictory. Let's hope the new crop of teams doesn't suffer the same fate eh?
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Gyfox
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 13K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. That is only applicable to Sydney. Every other city just had normal clubs and things evolved fairly naturally until the likes of Hill and Lowy started meddling. QLD has a lot of clubs formed in the 50’s and 60’s, very often formed by merging clubs originally formed in the late 1800’s So did every state, but they were just more clubs in addition to existing clubs as we know them. They weren't replacing the weird district rep teams that gyfox pines for and only existed in Sydney. They weren't formal district rep teams. They were local based teams that young district association players were identifying with because they operated in their locality and many had long histories there. The kids identified with them as their club just the same as happens all around the world. The district association system was set up in NSW in 1900 with the establishment of the Granville Association to devolve management of grassroots football to the local areas and regions. Over the last 120 years many other DAs have been set up in NSW. It has been far and away the most successful decision ever made in Australian football with millions having grown to love the game because of the hard work of the volunteers and organisers of the DAs. By the early 1950s there were 50k players in NSW and by 1967 that had risen to 93k of the 127k players in Australia. Now of the 543k registered players in Australia 300k of them live in NSW and 95% of them play in the DAs or regional associations. Changing systems that work needs very careful consideration. Changing systems that don't work needs that same level of consideration. The 1957 football rebellion split the elite clubs in NSW from the grassroots of the game. The 2003/4 football revolution split "new football" and "old football". One thing that has passed the test of time is the DA system in NSW. Whether it be in the amateur period to 1957, the semi pro period to 2003/4 or the professional period up until now the DAs have kept doing their work in consistently and continually growing the game and the secret to it has been that everyone is welcome and everyone works together no matter what their background is. It is something that the elite arm of the game needs to take note of.
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df1982
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+x+x+xAs an NPL member I will be strongly urging my club to abstain from this farce. Docherty cup is awesome and if we do get to the quarter final stage (which means entry to this abomination) I would hope that we just pull out of FFA cup contention and just continue with the league and Docherty (vic state) cup. Playing a group stage malarkey as a preseason warm up for the franchises, knowing that over 4 or 6 games or whatever an NPL club has no remote chance to progress is balls. So this JJ is a football person huh? Wouldn't you be interested to see how your club would fare in a round-robin group against A-League + other NPL clubs to test the waters for how thye might fare in an NSD? Or are you worried that it would show just how big the gulf in quality is (remember Sydney United is close to the best NPL side in the country, and they lost 7-1 to an ordinary Wanderers side last year). Oh of course on a purely playing perspective it would be a challenging few matches and if nothing else would be great for the boys to get the game time against professionals rehardles of the result. I'm under no dillusion that part time players could beat full time pros over a group stage. I object to the fact that the only half decent thing the FFA have done to try and connect the 99% of clubs in Australia with the 1%ers is now clearly being re-jigged to suit the needs of the dirty dozen. If the a league needs more games to qualify for acl comps then schedule more games amongst yourselves or expand the league. Beating up on part timers and taking away any even tiny hopecthey had of winning a one of game and making some excitement will ckearly ve gone. Mind you, believe it or not, I was also strongly against the rigged previous draws that allowed a guaranteed NPL spot in semis... I am passionately blind when it comes to my club but I do prefer to win things the right way. I agree with you that the FFA Cup should stay a straight knockout on an ongoing basis. But as a one-off measure group stages in late 2021 is not such a bad proposal. It could even be a stepping stone to an NSD. JJ has been making much more affirmative noises about a second tier in the last little while, which could come in as early as 2022, at the same moment that the calendars align.
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Gyfox
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. Gyfox, can I ask, as I am not clear by your comment, what happened to the old NSW club you supported? Did it fold ? Was it "bought out" by a migrant club? When you say the new clubs didn't relate to Australian football fans you mean Anglos right,? Also, curious as to which clubs in NSW where franchises in the 50s from what I know none of the clubs in Melbourne where even close to being characterised as such. If that happened in Sydney then yes I can see your hatred of Apia, St George, Pan-Hellenic etc would as equally as justified as mine is to Tarneit and McVictory. Let's hope the new crop of teams doesn't suffer the same fate eh? My club didn't last very long in the leagues of the rebel federation eventually folding. Many other clubs involved in the state association competitions didn't make it that far. Some were bought, some were taken over and others dropped out of existence. The new federation was established by existing migrant clubs and some existing Anglo clubs discontent with the games governance by the state association and they set up competitions in opposition to the state association. With a lot of the better players moving with their clubs to the new competitions it didn't take long for players in the old competitions to abandon their clubs and join clubs in the new federation competitions. It took two years for the state association and its competitions to fold and leave the new federation to run football. The new federation never acknowledged the history of the game before 1957. Before the rebel federation was established there were at least 3 migrant clubs spread over 2 tiers playing in the state association competitions. In the first season of the new federation competitions there were at least 8 migrant clubs spread over two tiers and in its second season there were at least 14 migrant clubs spread over 2 tiers with 2 parallel competitions in the lower tier. This allocation of clubs did not reflect the playing strength in NSW where post war migrants made up a significant but minor portion of the players. The make up of the player pool was Australians of all persuasions and heritage, recent Anglo migrants and recent European migrants in reducing order in numbers. I used the term "franchises" deliberately because in effect the migrant clubs were franchises of football back home that were created as part of the system of socialising for people living in a new country. As such they had no appeal to the large body of other football fans and they had no interest in welcoming us either. I don't hate the migrant clubs but I am sad that their search for better football here led to the separation of elite football from the large and ever growing football community in Sydney. Interestingly as I have said previously the addition of post war migrants, with their love of the game and their expertise, to the long established community/grassroots District Association system in Sydney helped accelerate growth of the game at that level enormously. If I am honest I would have more antipathy to the Anglo clubs that abandoned their colleagues in the state association than anything else but I'm not sure any of them exist now. They were basically all gone at least from the elite game by the time the "NSL" was established in 1977. They abandoned their mates in search of control of the game and ended up being swamped by what they created.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIgnoring the influence of AFL, NRL etc in reducing crowds during winter for the moment, wouldn't playing the A-league during winter reduce the amount of football people going to games as they would have their own matches on the weekend to attend? Perhaps, but it's clear that we're not getting that major group of potential fans in summer anyway. The rest of the world seems to cope with local leagues and professional leagues having some overlap, as does the machines that are the AFL and NRL. Gotta try something different, so that shouldn't be the thing that holds us back. The rest of the world have developed football cultures. We don't. I believe that we actually do have an organic, genuine, rich, and storied football culture stretching back 140+ years that currently includes several million Australians, but unfortunately we've never quite managed to tailor the organizational infrastructure around it to make the most efficient use out of it. A couple of points worth discussing are why the growth of the game here has been sporadic and non uniform across the country and why the game is well accepted at community and grassroots level but has not gained acceptance at the elite club level. The answer is lack of continuity. It's as simple as that. Be it world wars, or power struggles with new arrivals, or chopping leagues around, clubs coming and going, it all boils down to continuity. The examples are many. I mean, even a great club like South Melbourne only goes back to the late 50s, so a bit over 70 years old. In our game, that's a pretty old club, but in the scheme of things, it's really not that old, and in any event, ultimately got the cold shoulder when another new league was started up - no continuity. Ian Syson is a well known football historian, often writes about football history from the late 1800s and early 1900s, writes a fair bit about WWI, mentions the many casualties of football players, the decimation of football clubs, etc. He laments that we don't know these stories, but the lack of continuity makes it difficult to know. If grand old clubs were involved, that have been around continuously from 1900 to the present day, and they were clubs playing at an elite level, then I guarantee that would create the conditions for greater knowledge and appreciation, but the truth is that we lack this inter-generational sort of stuff because there is no continuity with the past. Even the first ever national club competition in this land was only allowed to survive for 27 years before being unceremoniously dismantled. Lack of continuity. And people think that just creating new franchises is the answer to everything. I promise you all, no, it's not. Well we made new "franchises" in 1957. Tossed out the old and started new clubs that didn't relate to Australian football fans at the time. It was devastating to young blokes like me in Sydney at the time. It was both the worst and the best thing that could have been done. Worst in that the link between the elite clubs and football players and fans at the time was broken and best in that it did away with the existing amateurish approach to football. I'm sure there was a better alternative at the time just as there was in 2004. Gyfox, can I ask, as I am not clear by your comment, what happened to the old NSW club you supported? Did it fold ? Was it "bought out" by a migrant club? When you say the new clubs didn't relate to Australian football fans you mean Anglos right,? Also, curious as to which clubs in NSW where franchises in the 50s from what I know none of the clubs in Melbourne where even close to being characterised as such. If that happened in Sydney then yes I can see your hatred of Apia, St George, Pan-Hellenic etc would as equally as justified as mine is to Tarneit and McVictory. Let's hope the new crop of teams doesn't suffer the same fate eh? My club didn't last very long in the leagues of the rebel federation eventually folding. Many other clubs involved in the state association competitions didn't make it that far. Some were bought, some were taken over and others dropped out of existence. The new federation was established by existing migrant clubs and some existing Anglo clubs discontent with the games governance by the state association and they set up competitions in opposition to the state association. With a lot of the better players moving with their clubs to the new competitions it didn't take long for players in the old competitions to abandon their clubs and join clubs in the new federation competitions. It took two years for the state association and its competitions to fold and leave the new federation to run football. The new federation never acknowledged the history of the game before 1957. Before the rebel federation was established there were at least 3 migrant clubs spread over 2 tiers playing in the state association competitions. In the first season of the new federation competitions there were at least 8 migrant clubs spread over two tiers and in its second season there were at least 14 migrant clubs spread over 2 tiers with 2 parallel competitions in the lower tier. This allocation of clubs did not reflect the playing strength in NSW where post war migrants made up a significant but minor portion of the players. The make up of the player pool was Australians of all persuasions and heritage, recent Anglo migrants and recent European migrants in reducing order in numbers. I used the term "franchises" deliberately because in effect the migrant clubs were franchises of football back home that were created as part of the system of socialising for people living in a new country. As such they had no appeal to the large body of other football fans and they had no interest in welcoming us either. I don't hate the migrant clubs but I am sad that their search for better football here led to the separation of elite football from the large and ever growing football community in Sydney. Interestingly as I have said previously the addition of post war migrants, with their love of the game and their expertise, to the long established community/grassroots District Association system in Sydney helped accelerate growth of the game at that level enormously. If I am honest I would have more antipathy to the Anglo clubs that abandoned their colleagues in the state association than anything else but I'm not sure any of them exist now. They were basically all gone at least from the elite game by the time the "NSL" was established in 1977. They abandoned their mates in search of control of the game and ended up being swamped by what they created. Fascinating and thanks for your considered reply. I understand the "transition" was a lot diferent here in Victoria, and as there was no district association, at least in Melbourne, migrant teams either sloted in at the bottom of the State league pyramid or were eventual take overs and re-brand of existing state league sides. Your description of the 57 federation change in NSW is something some of the old boys still talk about down here and your description of players and fans abandoning storied clubs to follow the new franchise's certainly makes me empathise. I also can accept your use of the word "franchise" as I understand the context behind your description (I don't think it should apply to ALL the ethnic clubs btw) , apologies but another poster had frustrated me by drawing a parallel to today's abomination of a closed franchise league. I agree, to some degree, that the huge participation numbers of these DAs would have been a boon for professional soccer if the connections where maintained, but I,m still not convinced that the popularity of the pro game here (attendance and tv audience) should rely solely on participants.
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clockwork orange
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Played with Marconi and Polonia as a teenager. The clubs and members were always welcoming of we Anglos, some of the players not so much ... kept to their cliques. They’d probably say the same about us I suppose.
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