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df1982
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. The problem is that football in Australia took a very different path than what it did in many other countries, where already in the 19th century and early 20th century the process of consolidation happened that meant that in most places there were 1-2 clubs representing the city in a national league structure. In Australia this was complicated by two factors: - the tyranny of distance meant that a national league wasn't viable in any code until the 1970s, when air travel became economically viable. Until then we basically had suburban competitions in all sports (the only exception being the Sheffield Shield). Even Newcastle and Wollongong teams played in different comps to Sydney teams, for example. Smaller regional towns were basically excluded from these structures (Morwell Falcons being a notable outlier). - the game struggled to gain purchase in mainstream (Anglo) Australia due to competition with other codes, which meant the club landscape was even further fragmented. Interest in football overall was pretty healthy but it was spread across a large number of clubs divided both geographically and ethnically, none of which were able to attract more than a few thousand fans to games. There was also a general instability in the existence of clubs, so that for instance Sydney Prague could be a dominant force in the NSW state league but disappear not much later. The NSL was an honourable attempt to break out of this cycle, but in the end most clubs were unable to attract support beyond their traditional fanbase. In that context, it was a fantasy to think you could build up a club like Melbourne Victory from the bottom tier and have 20k fans attend. To get that kind of support you essentially had to create professional-level clubs from scratch. Sure, at the beginning these would be very "plastic", but over time they would bed themselves in. There are 35-year-olds now who can't remember a time before Perth Glory existed. The mistake has probably been that these clubs have only recently begun to build up the kind of infrastructure that makes them a club and not just a franchise, when this should have been planned from the beginning. Things like training centres, academies, administrative HQs, even clubhouses (even if they stick to renting multi-purpose stadiums for A-League matches). But this is slowly starting to change now. And I agree that we shouldn't ask someone from, say, Hobart to support Melbourne Victory. Rather Hobart should have its own professional level club representing the whole city that can find its natural place on the football pyramid (probably as a yo-yo club between the A-League and the NSD). But this would also need to be a start-up club as it's hard envisaging the likes of South Hobart or Glenorchy Knights fulfilling this role, since they've spent decades playing against each other and forming rivalries on this basis. They would remain as community-based amateur/semi-pro sides.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. Heheheheheh
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. The WU bid was not limited to the stadium- Geelong and Melbourne's West have many football fans and clubs and football is massive. Good so far-that's where the fish are so fish there The problem is many of these clubs were founded by ethnic communities Cro's, Maco's Italians, Maltese. Steve Horvat thought he could draw on his relationships within the Croatian community in Geelong, even got Croatian coach in, maybe play games out of Somers Street as well, and gain some fans that way. No chance. These community clubs have their 1-2000 fans who have no interest whatsoever in supporting anyone but their own club. They go there for the socializing with their own kind as much as the football. Is that not what you would expect from a club though Enzo? Your casual racism aside, do you see any Hawthorn fans supporting Collingwood in the AFL? Many Everton fans lining up to cheer on the mighty Reds perhaps? Do you think there where many Manchester City fans in the 90s who all of a sudden started going to Old Trafford to watch "top flight" football? Your "fish where the fish are" line is a furphy .... There are clearly NO MORE FISH that dont already have a club, you cant generate a fan base from thin air and the AFL/NRL folk that maybe persuaded to watch are few and far between based on recent attendeances,viewing patterns. You, Gallop. Lowy and all the other racists just don't like the type of fish left in the ocean...
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Razor Ramon
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+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Amazing how many Socceroos in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s started their careers in the NSL.....
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Razor Ramon
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+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. The great weakness of the supposed GG, was that they were tactically naive and they struggled to combine cohesively as a Socceroo team unit. 32 years of failure to qualify for a World Cup substantiates this. A big strength to the GG is that many are pundits who love big noting their era. Most Aussie players who've retired since circa 2012, are much more modest and circumspect about their football era. Many of the GG were used to being feted and adulated by fans and media at big European clubs. They felt superior to opposition players playing in the AFC. The 2006 WC team only qualified for the WC, by beating Uruguay, through importing football powerhouse coaching methodology outside Aus. Having said that the GG produced some good players. However, there are lots of videos out from the epoch of 1993 -2005. Few of those players prior to 2006, and even 2006, would be good enough to displace most of the current starting Socceroo line up in Qatar. Arnie would undoubtedly play Kewell instead of Leckie or Goodwin, possibly play Bresciano for McGree, and possibly Culina for Irvine, but no others. Many current Socceroos are battle hardened international players, who've played a lot of football using highly sophisticated tactics, in unfamiliar places culturally and climatically in Asia. Leckie, Behich, Mooy, Irvine, Ryan, Degenek, Wright and even Duke, Maclaren, Goodwin, are highly experienced in the international milieu, and at executing sophisticated tactics and game plans. Remember the GG's Asian Cup flop in 2007. It is a salutary reminder of their quality. Well if you look at some of those qualifying campaigns between 1974-2006 in which Australia nearly qualified..... 1986: had to face Scotland for the 2 legged play off to make the 1986 world cup. Alex Ferguson was managing the Scottish side and brought Ken Daigleish out of retirement. Australia fell short. 1994: had to face Argentina lead by Diego Maradona. Australia tried hard but lost. Maradona famously said, one day your tears of sadness will be tears of joy. He was right. 1998: Australia could of made the 1998 world cup by beating Iran in a 2 legged play off. Drew 1-1 in Iran. 2nd Leg was in Australia. A 0-0 draw would be enough. Australia leads 2-0 in the 2nd half and chokes it in the final 10 minutes. Gutted as that was a golden chance. 2002: could of made it against Uruguay. Won 1-0 in the MCG with a Kevin Muscat penalty kick. We head to Montevideo. Down 1-0. It's even. Down 2-0 still hope. Just need an away goal. Had a chance to score one but goes above the goal post. Uruguay gets a 3rd goal. So In essence ..... 1998 and 2002 Australia could of and should of gone through.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. The WU bid was not limited to the stadium- Geelong and Melbourne's West have many football fans and clubs and football is massive. Good so far-that's where the fish are so fish there The problem is many of these clubs were founded by ethnic communities Cro's, Maco's Italians, Maltese. Steve Horvat thought he could draw on his relationships within the Croatian community in Geelong, even got Croatian coach in, maybe play games out of Somers Street as well, and gain some fans that way. No chance. These community clubs have their 1-2000 fans who have no interest whatsoever in supporting anyone but their own club. They go there for the socializing with their own kind as much as the football. Is that not what you would expect from a club though Enzo? Your casual racism aside, do you see any Hawthorn fans supporting Collingwood in the AFL? Many Everton fans lining up to cheer on the mighty Reds perhaps? Do you think there where many Manchester City fans in the 90s who all of a sudden started going to Old Trafford to watch "top flight" football? Your "fish where the fish are" line is a furphy .... There are clearly NO MORE FISH that dont already have a club, you cant generate a fan base from thin air and the AFL/NRL folk that maybe persuaded to watch are few and far between based on recent attendeances,viewing patterns. You, Gallop. Lowy and all the other racists just don't like the type of fish left in the ocean... That's where your promoted clubs will come from in your pyramid. Small community clubs with little capacity to grow beyond their ethnicity. Is that waht you want Victory were created out of nowhere, City too. Wanderers. Just to name a few. It can be done. It remains to be seen if WU can do that in the Balkanizedd West of Melbourne maybe a home stadium can bring them together, I'm a wog so its not racism when I say it.
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SUTHERLANDBEAR
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+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. The great weakness of the supposed GG, was that they were tactically naive and they struggled to combine cohesively as a Socceroo team unit. 32 years of failure to qualify for a World Cup substantiates this. A big strength to the GG is that many are pundits who love big noting their era. Most Aussie players who've retired since circa 2012, are much more modest and circumspect about their football era. Many of the GG were used to being feted and adulated by fans and media at big European clubs. They felt superior to opposition players playing in the AFC. The 2006 WC team only qualified for the WC, by beating Uruguay, through importing football powerhouse coaching methodology outside Aus. Having said that the GG produced some good players. However, there are lots of videos out from the epoch of 1993 -2005. Few of those players prior to 2006, and even 2006, would be good enough to displace most of the current starting Socceroo line up in Qatar. Arnie would undoubtedly play Kewell instead of Leckie or Goodwin, possibly play Bresciano for McGree, and possibly Culina for Irvine, but no others. Many current Socceroos are battle hardened international players, who've played a lot of football using highly sophisticated tactics, in unfamiliar places culturally and climatically in Asia. Leckie, Behich, Mooy, Irvine, Ryan, Degenek, Wright and even Duke, Maclaren, Goodwin, are highly experienced in the international milieu, and at executing sophisticated tactics and game plans. Remember the GG's Asian Cup flop in 2007. It is a salutary reminder of their quality. Well if you look at some of those qualifying campaigns between 1974-2006 in which Australia nearly qualified..... 1986: had to face Scotland for the 2 legged play off to make the 1986 world cup. Alex Ferguson was managing the Scottish side and brought Ken Daigleish out of retirement. Australia fell short. 1994: had to face Argentina lead by Diego Maradona. Australia tried hard but lost. Maradona famously said, one day your tears of sadness will be tears of joy. He was right. 1998: Australia could of made the 1998 world cup by beating Iran in a 2 legged play off. Drew 1-1 in Iran. 2nd Leg was in Australia. A 0-0 draw would be enough. Australia leads 2-0 in the 2nd half and chokes it in the final 10 minutes. Gutted as that was a golden chance. 2002: could of made it against Uruguay. Won 1-0 in the MCG with a Kevin Muscat penalty kick. We head to Montevideo. Down 1-0. It's even. Down 2-0 still hope. Just need an away goal. Had a chance to score one but goes above the goal post. Uruguay gets a 3rd goal. So In essence ..... 1998 and 2002 Australia could of and should of gone through. Dalglish was not brought out of retirement, he was player/ manager of Liverpool and picked his matches for Scotland. He retired in protest of Alan Hansen not getting picked for Mexico 86.He did however play one more time for Scotland under new management.
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localstar
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+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. The great weakness of the supposed GG, was that they were tactically naive and they struggled to combine cohesively as a Socceroo team unit. 32 years of failure to qualify for a World Cup substantiates this. A big strength to the GG is that many are pundits who love big noting their era. Most Aussie players who've retired since circa 2012, are much more modest and circumspect about their football era. Many of the GG were used to being feted and adulated by fans and media at big European clubs. They felt superior to opposition players playing in the AFC. The 2006 WC team only qualified for the WC, by beating Uruguay, through importing football powerhouse coaching methodology outside Aus. Having said that the GG produced some good players. However, there are lots of videos out from the epoch of 1993 -2005. Few of those players prior to 2006, and even 2006, would be good enough to displace most of the current starting Socceroo line up in Qatar. Arnie would undoubtedly play Kewell instead of Leckie or Goodwin, possibly play Bresciano for McGree, and possibly Culina for Irvine, but no others. Many current Socceroos are battle hardened international players, who've played a lot of football using highly sophisticated tactics, in unfamiliar places culturally and climatically in Asia. Leckie, Behich, Mooy, Irvine, Ryan, Degenek, Wright and even Duke, Maclaren, Goodwin, are highly experienced in the international milieu, and at executing sophisticated tactics and game plans. Remember the GG's Asian Cup flop in 2007. It is a salutary reminder of their quality. Well if you look at some of those qualifying campaigns between 1974-2006 in which Australia nearly qualified..... 1986: had to face Scotland for the 2 legged play off to make the 1986 world cup. Alex Ferguson was managing the Scottish side and brought Ken Daigleish out of retirement. Australia fell short. 1994: had to face Argentina lead by Diego Maradona. Australia tried hard but lost. Maradona famously said, one day your tears of sadness will be tears of joy. He was right. 1998: Australia could of made the 1998 world cup by beating Iran in a 2 legged play off. Drew 1-1 in Iran. 2nd Leg was in Australia. A 0-0 draw would be enough. Australia leads 2-0 in the 2nd half and chokes it in the final 10 minutes. Gutted as that was a golden chance. 2002: could of made it against Uruguay. Won 1-0 in the MCG with a Kevin Muscat penalty kick. We head to Montevideo. Down 1-0. It's even. Down 2-0 still hope. Just need an away goal. Had a chance to score one but goes above the goal post. Uruguay gets a 3rd goal. So In essence ..... 1998 and 2002 Australia could of and should of gone through. Decentric is obsessed with the "32 years of failure". he doesn't have any real "feel" for Australian football and its relationship with the world.
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Razor Ramon
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+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. The great weakness of the supposed GG, was that they were tactically naive and they struggled to combine cohesively as a Socceroo team unit. 32 years of failure to qualify for a World Cup substantiates this. A big strength to the GG is that many are pundits who love big noting their era. Most Aussie players who've retired since circa 2012, are much more modest and circumspect about their football era. Many of the GG were used to being feted and adulated by fans and media at big European clubs. They felt superior to opposition players playing in the AFC. The 2006 WC team only qualified for the WC, by beating Uruguay, through importing football powerhouse coaching methodology outside Aus. Having said that the GG produced some good players. However, there are lots of videos out from the epoch of 1993 -2005. Few of those players prior to 2006, and even 2006, would be good enough to displace most of the current starting Socceroo line up in Qatar. Arnie would undoubtedly play Kewell instead of Leckie or Goodwin, possibly play Bresciano for McGree, and possibly Culina for Irvine, but no others. Many current Socceroos are battle hardened international players, who've played a lot of football using highly sophisticated tactics, in unfamiliar places culturally and climatically in Asia. Leckie, Behich, Mooy, Irvine, Ryan, Degenek, Wright and even Duke, Maclaren, Goodwin, are highly experienced in the international milieu, and at executing sophisticated tactics and game plans. Remember the GG's Asian Cup flop in 2007. It is a salutary reminder of their quality. Well if you look at some of those qualifying campaigns between 1974-2006 in which Australia nearly qualified..... 1986: had to face Scotland for the 2 legged play off to make the 1986 world cup. Alex Ferguson was managing the Scottish side and brought Ken Daigleish out of retirement. Australia fell short. 1994: had to face Argentina lead by Diego Maradona. Australia tried hard but lost. Maradona famously said, one day your tears of sadness will be tears of joy. He was right. 1998: Australia could of made the 1998 world cup by beating Iran in a 2 legged play off. Drew 1-1 in Iran. 2nd Leg was in Australia. A 0-0 draw would be enough. Australia leads 2-0 in the 2nd half and chokes it in the final 10 minutes. Gutted as that was a golden chance. 2002: could of made it against Uruguay. Won 1-0 in the MCG with a Kevin Muscat penalty kick. We head to Montevideo. Down 1-0. It's even. Down 2-0 still hope. Just need an away goal. Had a chance to score one but goes above the goal post. Uruguay gets a 3rd goal. So In essence ..... 1998 and 2002 Australia could of and should of gone through. Decentric is obsessed with the "32 years of failure". he doesn't have any real "feel" for Australian football and its relationship with the world. Well how different would the sport be in Australia had Australia qualified for the 1998 world cup had Australia took Iran's spot? A fair bit. It's weird because the teams that failed to make the world cup in 1994, 1998 and 2002 would beat the current Australian side.
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Remote Control
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. The great weakness of the supposed GG, was that they were tactically naive and they struggled to combine cohesively as a Socceroo team unit. 32 years of failure to qualify for a World Cup substantiates this. A big strength to the GG is that many are pundits who love big noting their era. Most Aussie players who've retired since circa 2012, are much more modest and circumspect about their football era. Many of the GG were used to being feted and adulated by fans and media at big European clubs. They felt superior to opposition players playing in the AFC. The 2006 WC team only qualified for the WC, by beating Uruguay, through importing football powerhouse coaching methodology outside Aus. Having said that the GG produced some good players. However, there are lots of videos out from the epoch of 1993 -2005. Few of those players prior to 2006, and even 2006, would be good enough to displace most of the current starting Socceroo line up in Qatar. Arnie would undoubtedly play Kewell instead of Leckie or Goodwin, possibly play Bresciano for McGree, and possibly Culina for Irvine, but no others. Many current Socceroos are battle hardened international players, who've played a lot of football using highly sophisticated tactics, in unfamiliar places culturally and climatically in Asia. Leckie, Behich, Mooy, Irvine, Ryan, Degenek, Wright and even Duke, Maclaren, Goodwin, are highly experienced in the international milieu, and at executing sophisticated tactics and game plans. Remember the GG's Asian Cup flop in 2007. It is a salutary reminder of their quality. Well if you look at some of those qualifying campaigns between 1974-2006 in which Australia nearly qualified..... 1986: had to face Scotland for the 2 legged play off to make the 1986 world cup. Alex Ferguson was managing the Scottish side and brought Ken Daigleish out of retirement. Australia fell short. 1994: had to face Argentina lead by Diego Maradona. Australia tried hard but lost. Maradona famously said, one day your tears of sadness will be tears of joy. He was right. 1998: Australia could of made the 1998 world cup by beating Iran in a 2 legged play off. Drew 1-1 in Iran. 2nd Leg was in Australia. A 0-0 draw would be enough. Australia leads 2-0 in the 2nd half and chokes it in the final 10 minutes. Gutted as that was a golden chance. 2002: could of made it against Uruguay. Won 1-0 in the MCG with a Kevin Muscat penalty kick. We head to Montevideo. Down 1-0. It's even. Down 2-0 still hope. Just need an away goal. Had a chance to score one but goes above the goal post. Uruguay gets a 3rd goal. So In essence ..... 1998 and 2002 Australia could of and should of gone through. Decentric is obsessed with the "32 years of failure". he doesn't have any real "feel" for Australian football and its relationship with the world. It's weird because the teams that failed to make the world cup in 1994, 1998 and 2002 would beat the current Australian side. Just like Peru , Denmark etc Oh wait .
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clockwork orange
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Perhaps we could ask Croatia or Morocco what they are doing? In 2006 our national team was the equal of Croatia’s. We didn’t have to play on the counter. We could match them.
16 years later, they have made successive WC semi-finals. Clearly they did something better with their 8 and 10 year olds at the time than we did.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. The WU bid was not limited to the stadium- Geelong and Melbourne's West have many football fans and clubs and football is massive. Good so far-that's where the fish are so fish there The problem is many of these clubs were founded by ethnic communities Cro's, Maco's Italians, Maltese. Steve Horvat thought he could draw on his relationships within the Croatian community in Geelong, even got Croatian coach in, maybe play games out of Somers Street as well, and gain some fans that way. No chance. These community clubs have their 1-2000 fans who have no interest whatsoever in supporting anyone but their own club. They go there for the socializing with their own kind as much as the football. Is that not what you would expect from a club though Enzo? Your casual racism aside, do you see any Hawthorn fans supporting Collingwood in the AFL? Many Everton fans lining up to cheer on the mighty Reds perhaps? Do you think there where many Manchester City fans in the 90s who all of a sudden started going to Old Trafford to watch "top flight" football? Your "fish where the fish are" line is a furphy .... There are clearly NO MORE FISH that dont already have a club, you cant generate a fan base from thin air and the AFL/NRL folk that maybe persuaded to watch are few and far between based on recent attendeances,viewing patterns. You, Gallop. Lowy and all the other racists just don't like the type of fish left in the ocean... That's where your promoted clubs will come from in your pyramid. Small community clubs with little capacity to grow beyond their ethnicity. Is that waht you want Victory were created out of nowhere, City too. Wanderers. Just to name a few. It can be done. It remains to be seen if WU can do that in the Balkanizedd West of Melbourne maybe a home stadium can bring them together, I'm a wog so its not racism when I say it. But those limitations are YOUR imposition on these clubs, NOT what they themselves see or feel. You see ethnicity as a hurdle, some of these clubs see it as a starting off point to future growth based on history and culture... Its 2022 dude, see beyond your preconceived notions of what is and isnt Australian...... I beg you. https://www.soccerscene.com.au/aafc-chairman-nick-galatas-your-next-expansion-club-should-be-from-the-division-below/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitterAnd, if nothing else, if these clubs do NOT want to branch outside of their ethnic affiliations, thats NOT the end of the world... Sure it may limit their potential to grow but I would say, in light of recent Aleague "growth" 16 thousand Croatian Australians turning up to a final is worth a hell of lot more commercially to advertisers and sponsors than 500 franchise supporters....
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. The WU bid was not limited to the stadium- Geelong and Melbourne's West have many football fans and clubs and football is massive. Good so far-that's where the fish are so fish there The problem is many of these clubs were founded by ethnic communities Cro's, Maco's Italians, Maltese. Steve Horvat thought he could draw on his relationships within the Croatian community in Geelong, even got Croatian coach in, maybe play games out of Somers Street as well, and gain some fans that way. No chance. These community clubs have their 1-2000 fans who have no interest whatsoever in supporting anyone but their own club. They go there for the socializing with their own kind as much as the football. Is that not what you would expect from a club though Enzo? Your casual racism aside, do you see any Hawthorn fans supporting Collingwood in the AFL? Many Everton fans lining up to cheer on the mighty Reds perhaps? Do you think there where many Manchester City fans in the 90s who all of a sudden started going to Old Trafford to watch "top flight" football? Your "fish where the fish are" line is a furphy .... There are clearly NO MORE FISH that dont already have a club, you cant generate a fan base from thin air and the AFL/NRL folk that maybe persuaded to watch are few and far between based on recent attendeances,viewing patterns. You, Gallop. Lowy and all the other racists just don't like the type of fish left in the ocean... That's where your promoted clubs will come from in your pyramid. Small community clubs with little capacity to grow beyond their ethnicity. Is that waht you want Victory were created out of nowhere, City too. Wanderers. Just to name a few. It can be done. It remains to be seen if WU can do that in the Balkanizedd West of Melbourne maybe a home stadium can bring them together, I'm a wog so its not racism when I say it. But those limitations are YOUR imposition on these clubs, NOT what they themselves see or feel. You see ethnicity as a hurdle, some of these clubs see it as a starting off point to future growth based on history and culture... Its 2022 dude, see beyond your preconceived notions of what is and isnt Australian...... I beg you. https://www.soccerscene.com.au/aafc-chairman-nick-galatas-your-next-expansion-club-should-be-from-the-division-below/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitterAnd, if nothing else, if these clubs do NOT want to branch outside of their ethnic affiliations, thats NOT the end of the world... Sure it may limit their potential to grow but I would say, in light of recent Aleague "growth" 16 thousand Croatian Australians turning up to a final is worth a hell of lot more commercially to advertisers and sponsors than 500 franchise supporters.... How "they see themselves" or how they "feel" is up to them.. whether they get an A-League license is not. But who knows-as you say maybe they don't want to be in the A-League-has anyone asked? In fact how many clubs actually do? I don't think that game helped the cause. Maybe the opposite.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd before the old NSL apologists start beating their chests on how "good" the old NSL supposedly was (some of it was OK, but it was mostly crap), FACTS don't give two shits about your feelings, the Socceroos never qualified for any WC during the 27 failed years the NSL (1977-2004), and the crowds were mostly pathetic. Just my 2c worth. Feisty opening post from a newby. I think the major flaw in your argument is that Oz was trapped in Oceania during the entirety of the relevant period. This was also the period when FIFA went out of their way to make sure Israel couldn't make the WC Finals after what happened at the Munich Olympics (there may have been other Middle East political reasons also). Accordingly, they obliged Israel to play off against the Oceania champion, an arrangement to which we meekly submitted, and then forced the winner of that tie to play off against (usually) a Euro or Sth American superpower. This was because FIFA didn't give a fuck about Oceania but did not, under any circumstances want Israel at the finals. This meant we had little chance of qualifying, no matter how good our player pathways. In fact, the first time we qualified in 32 years was via Oceania in a playoff against Uruguay. This was the so-called Golden Generation, almost all of whom were bred and born in the NSL. The NSL made a huge contribution to Oz football and the many ethnic clubs that featured in the NSL kept the flickering flame of football alive in this country. It may have had its problems, much exacerbated by the anti-football media which feared (and continues to fear) the Sleeping Giant, but there's no denying the NSL produced some brilliant Socceroos. So yes, on many grounds, football has improved in the last 20 years but it could have been so much better. Hopefully we are at last on the brink of something really big. Your summary above is far more palatable than SR's on the NSL to me. Its not just about being in Oceania and FIFA not giving a toss obviously the local hurdles, be it bad management that I agree with but also the game not having much respect here in good ol boganville as it was and all the complexities behind the scenes. Another point he mentioned that I can't agree is having produced the GG and yours saying so - called. Give it a break like D2 plucking out all the negatives of players back then, ofcourse there is when your looking from a 2022 perspective. There was great legend players who were part timers long before the GG that might I add unlike the last 20yrs of travelling abroad to better Clubs wasn't the norm for the Warrens/Richards/Alston/Schaefer etc barring Baartz trialing with United for one. Its still amazing they made it in '74 under all the circumstances - how anyone bags out not making it for 32yrs being part timers and messed up local system/not much external support are taking the piss imo. Then he mentions about lack of crowds, well any derby I went to with the ol man was packed, APIA/Marconi/Cros v's Serbs (yes that got out of hand) playing the Greeks was packed like come on - no diff to today but in smaller grounds and then you had low numbers attending, obviously it had run its course and many couldn't agree on enything put forward, again the big issue not having a strong upper management. The failing NSL as a comp was/is our foundation that many many players put their bodies and livelyhood on the line for the love of the game more than anything else, I give huge kudos to them getting bugger all money, being dis repected by Joe Public and the bogan loving media. Warren such a spokesman as known and others, Arnie got his DNA from those days ( yes I'm talking up to the guys about the Aussie DNA through the cup) that now he's applauded finally having had so so so many against him, more so the newbie younger supporters but now he's welcomed with open arms lol....... Yes we have progressed due to coaching acuman and all that is available today being prepared game by game, we punched above our weight that makes a great storey and provides HOPE as long as this current weak FA finally get things in order below ALM levels for thats the breeding ground full stop. D2's analysis at times blows me away like quoting the Asian Cup flop of 07, we have been flops since 06 buddy, thankfully been matched and bettered in '22. There is a good saying when I read alot of your summary's and talking up of today, your ambition far outweighs your talent. Thats us right now riding on the high of the last couple of weeks. I make no apologies for my scathing attack on the old NSL, and I say that as someone who loyally followed the NSL from 1977 to 2000, when I then gave up on the NSL, because it was as clear as day, that it was dying a slow and painful death. To be fair some of the NSL was OK, and there were some good teams that were worth paying money to see eg, Adelaide City, South Melbourne Hellas, Marconi (late 80's, early 90's), Sydney Olympic,Perth Glory, Sydney/Melbourne Croatia. But lets be brutally honest, football back then was the WORST run sport in Australia by a country mile (at all levels ie.ASF and SA), and like I said in one of my previous replies, some of my Greek-Australian friends who were mad Sydney Olympic fans would often tell me how appalled at how badly their club was run, as myself an Italian-Australian, I was just as appalled at how badly Apia and Marconi were, although in fairness to Marconi they were in some financial trouble but they have turned that around, and they have a great social club (I recently ate there and the food was great, and the club has been renovated and it's a nice place to visit). As for APIA, if that club was run by people who actually knew what they were doing, they could have been one of the most successful licensed clubs in New South Wales, but it wasn't, and it went broke. I'm sorry but the NSL crowd numbers were for the most part poor, yeah sure the odd ethnic/local derbies often got crowds over 10K, and some of the NSL grand finals were sell outs or close to them, but the A-League crowds (between 2005-2017), dwarf those of the old NSL (Sydney FC v WSW local derbies often got sold out crowds of between 20K (if played at the old Paramatta Stadium), and 40K (when played at the old SFS), in October 2016, when Sydney FC played WSW at the Olympic Stadium at Homebush, the attendance was 61K (a regular game), the old NSL couldn't get anywhere near those numbers, even for the NSL Grand Finals (from memory the biggest NSL Grand Final attendance was around 43K Perth Glory v Sydney Olympic at Subiaco Oval in Perth, WA). I understand and appreciate that there is still a "sheilas, wogs and poofters" bogan mentality to football, and that the bogan media (which I don't watch anymore, in fact I stopped watching TV, except for football more than ten years ago), hates football (especially the AFL loving channel 7), but it has to be said that football in Australia now is in a much better place than what it was prior to 2005. Wasn't following the NSL was following my Club that competed in the NSL. This notion of following a competition as such only demonstrates to me how weak our football culture is. How much we disregard sporting merit. How much we follow American type sporting structures. How much we follow metrics (attendances and TV ratings) as the end game. How much we believe World Cup success translates to domestic success of metrics. I think you're making a lot out of an off-hand comment. You were lucky during the NSL, I guess, because you had a club you strongly identified with. But there were a lot of people out there who loved football, wanted to take an interest in the national competition, but never ended up with a strong affinity to any club. I was one of them, for more than a decade. I tried supporting Sydney Olympic for a time, but after a while the comments along the lines of "Why do you support Olympic, you're not Greek?" got too much. These comments, by the way, came from Olympic supporters (presumably of Greek lineage). This was the problem with the NSL in a nutshell. I love that the "ethnic" clubs exist and they should have the opportunity to operate in a fully integrated pyramid with open pro-rel, but in the end their natural position is in the lower rungs of the game. The professional end needs to be primarily "broadbased" clubs otherwise the sport will never grow. I think you just reflected my view of weak football culture in Australia. In effect no-one said you had to follow Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Marconi etc. etc. There are hundreds of Clubs across Australia that you and others could have followed, put your effort, time and money into, to move up the competition leagues and press for promotion or access to the first tier, I'm telling you now that a Melbourne Victory formed in 1980 reaching the VPL with 22,000 people a game isn't going to be knocked back the NSL. In fact 3-5000 would have been enough. Again the "broad based" issue is all about metrics, geography, territories and ownership of the game, not sporting merit. Basically anti-football culture, no different to a European Super League or MLS. While you and others rail on about "ethnic clubs" [I note that all clubs are Australian under the laws of the land], the NSL was what it was for Australia at the time, and it should be seen for what has happened in our Club from the first official game to the last game played in November, as a journey. From "ethnic" dominance of the Scottish, and English Clubs pre war, to Jewish clubs after WWII, the mass migration from Europe in the 50's and 60's and the dominance of European Clubs, to the leap of faith to create the first National Competition, the changes in the 90's and the creation of new Clubs, Perth, Spirit, Power, Adelaide United and the various Newcastle incantations. To where we are today. We too often, since we've created a National Competition in 1977, have been way too concerned about metrics and geography over sporting merit. And if metrics and geography is the key criteria, even over the last 20 years, we have not planned for it even up to today. My comment to you would be how do football people in Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT get behind the "A-League" without a local franchise outlet. How are they "excluded" and why. In the end Sporting Merit appears to solve a lot of problems in terms inclusivity and diversity. If Sydney Olympic is good enough to be promoted and qualify for access to the A-League, so be it. And if they are not they are not. And if Geography is a problem as everyone says it is, then having an open pyramid, means that Tasmania, ACT, North Queensland, NT and every other suburban or regional location are connected to the big game. So if Saudi Arabia starts a Club in Tenants Creek, or Marinakis buys a South Melbourne and pumps $$$ to get the A-League, along with others, via a NSD or starts in NPL or State League 5 investing to get to the first tier, I can't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's normal football culture. If its about merit then what's the beef with Champions Westrn United being in the A-League instead of South Melbourne? That WU are a team created from scratch that get accepted into the Professional competition ahead of established clubs that likely could have pulled larger crowds and fostered greater rivalries with other A-League clubs. Thought that would be obvious. Western United being champions is irrelevant to the "merit" argument when NPL clubs literally cannot achieve the same thing due to being closed out. They're the Champions it doesn't get any more meritorious than that why does everyone them want the out? Or are you going to just STFU now about them? Did you even read my second sentence? How is on-field performance relevant when the a league is closed off to the majority of Australian football clubs? The "merit" argument kicks in if/when we have something resembling a football pyramid. Once again you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. The A-League is actually not closed off to anybody. Any club just needs to put forward a proposal that has "merit". Winning the league of its own is not enough. There has to be a business case attached to it that suits the league as a whole. So South Melbourne just needed to lie about building a stadium. Got it. The WU bid was not limited to the stadium- Geelong and Melbourne's West have many football fans and clubs and football is massive. Good so far-that's where the fish are so fish there The problem is many of these clubs were founded by ethnic communities Cro's, Maco's Italians, Maltese. Steve Horvat thought he could draw on his relationships within the Croatian community in Geelong, even got Croatian coach in, maybe play games out of Somers Street as well, and gain some fans that way. No chance. These community clubs have their 1-2000 fans who have no interest whatsoever in supporting anyone but their own club. They go there for the socializing with their own kind as much as the football. Is that not what you would expect from a club though Enzo? Your casual racism aside, do you see any Hawthorn fans supporting Collingwood in the AFL? Many Everton fans lining up to cheer on the mighty Reds perhaps? Do you think there where many Manchester City fans in the 90s who all of a sudden started going to Old Trafford to watch "top flight" football? Your "fish where the fish are" line is a furphy .... There are clearly NO MORE FISH that dont already have a club, you cant generate a fan base from thin air and the AFL/NRL folk that maybe persuaded to watch are few and far between based on recent attendeances,viewing patterns. You, Gallop. Lowy and all the other racists just don't like the type of fish left in the ocean... That's where your promoted clubs will come from in your pyramid. Small community clubs with little capacity to grow beyond their ethnicity. Is that waht you want Victory were created out of nowhere, City too. Wanderers. Just to name a few. It can be done. It remains to be seen if WU can do that in the Balkanizedd West of Melbourne maybe a home stadium can bring them together, I'm a wog so its not racism when I say it. But those limitations are YOUR imposition on these clubs, NOT what they themselves see or feel. You see ethnicity as a hurdle, some of these clubs see it as a starting off point to future growth based on history and culture... Its 2022 dude, see beyond your preconceived notions of what is and isnt Australian...... I beg you. https://www.soccerscene.com.au/aafc-chairman-nick-galatas-your-next-expansion-club-should-be-from-the-division-below/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitterAnd, if nothing else, if these clubs do NOT want to branch outside of their ethnic affiliations, thats NOT the end of the world... Sure it may limit their potential to grow but I would say, in light of recent Aleague "growth" 16 thousand Croatian Australians turning up to a final is worth a hell of lot more commercially to advertisers and sponsors than 500 franchise supporters.... How "they see themselves" or how they "feel" is up to them.. whether they get an A-League license is not. But who knows-as you say maybe they don't want to be in the A-League-has anyone asked? In fact how many clubs actually do? I don't think that game helped the cause. Maybe the opposite. I would say that ALL clubs to some degree want to be in the top league (whether that remains the Aleague moving forward or not is another story)... I guess many would see it as an ambition beyond their means but I would assume they would at the least like the opportunity to try..... At least 34 AAFC member clubs would and Im sure that there are many many more out there taking a "wait and see approach" It seems like the FAs attention now is solely on National teams, NSD and leagues bellow that, cutting the APL cartel loose to sink or swim on their own commercial impetus...
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tomw
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+xIt seems like the FAs attention now is solely on National teams, NSD and leagues bellow that, cutting the APL cartel loose to sink or swim on their own commercial impetus... If that were true, surely the NSD would be set up by now? How many years has it been 'coming next year'?
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riquelmes_laces
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Still a lot of problems identified in this great report on 7:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRgXvq4QNVQ&list=PLn2RjxYNpcaxqvT7hZSXuTm7kU5ywvlclIt frustrates me a lot when I hear about losing talented athletes to other sports because of exorbitant fees.
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zimbos_05
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There is one simple answer to this question.
We haven't progressed.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+xThere is one simple answer to this question. We haven't progressed. Don't be silly zimbos.... The fans throwing flares and invading the pitch dont wave Greek or Croatian flags anymore.... And instead of fighting amongst themselves they attack players now... thats progress surely?
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Dan_The_Red
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+xThere is one simple answer to this question. We haven't progressed. I know emotions are up at the present time but come on. 20 years ago we had a part timers men’s league, no women’s comp and hadn’t qualified for the WC in almost 30 years. All those have been overcome, we’ve even won the Asian cup ffs. It’s by no means perfect, but progress has been made.
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patjennings
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TBH the only one speaking any sense was Harper.
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Footyball
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Closed salary capped league no pathways, no second division, no transfer fees, not enough matches, youth don't play and expensive for the kids that are not well off.
This football code is rated behind the other major sporting codes in this country, and rightly so.
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zimbos_05
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+x+xThere is one simple answer to this question. We haven't progressed. I know emotions are up at the present time but come on. 20 years ago we had a part timers men’s league, no women’s comp and hadn’t qualified for the WC in almost 30 years. All those have been overcome, we’ve even won the Asian cup ffs. It’s by no means perfect, but progress has been made. My response was not steeped in emotion after AAMI park. My response is stepped in being part of the system, working closely with decision makers, and following the game for close to two decades. Yes we have a professional league and a womens comp, but what actual progress has either of leagues made in terms of quality, crowd numbers, football specific facilities, growth of the grassroots, pathways, coaching development. Only need to look at my club (Brisbane Roar) to see the level of regression that has been made. That Ange side should have been the start of something big for the league, but in essence, nothing came of it and now the league is subpar. We qualified for the WC, but since 2006, what progress have we made as a national team in each of those WCs. We cling so boldly to the "we gave it our all" rather than "we are here to compete". So often with the national team, losing but trying hard is commended. We see it all the time. In 2009, off the back of the golden generation, we got as low as 14 in the rankings. It was steady decline after, with our worst being 102 in 2014. We've been teetering in the high 30's, low 40's the last 11 years. Winning the Asian Cup is definitely an achievement, but what progress has been since then. We did not use it as a springboard to do better. How has our national team progressed since. Our WC was a decent one no doubt, but people keep forgetting how close we came to not being at this WC.
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zimbos_05
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+x
Few of those players prior to 2006, and even 2006, would be good enough to displace most of the current starting Socceroo line up in Qatar.
Arnie would undoubtedly play Kewell instead of Leckie or Goodwin, possibly play Bresciano for McGree, and possibly Culina for Irvine, but no others.
Many current Socceroos are battle hardened international players, who've played a lot of football using highly sophisticated tactics, in unfamiliar places culturally and climatically in Asia.
In my close to 2 decades on this forum, this is up there with some of the wildest things I have read. The GG underachieved, but it was not because of the reasons you gave. Now you might have been making a reasoned argument to have a discussion around failures of that generation, but when you said they are not good enough to displace the current Socceroo line up, you lost all standing. Schwarzer, Neill, Emerton, Chipperfield, Viduka, Cahill, Grella, Moore would all walk into the current side, and few others (Popovic, Kennedy, Milligan, Wilkshire) would have big cases.
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localstar
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Decentric still a champion of the ineffective Culina after all these years!
D. seems to have gone so we will have to wait another four years to get back to him.
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Dan_The_Red
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+x+x+xThere is one simple answer to this question. We haven't progressed. I know emotions are up at the present time but come on. 20 years ago we had a part timers men’s league, no women’s comp and hadn’t qualified for the WC in almost 30 years. All those have been overcome, we’ve even won the Asian cup ffs. It’s by no means perfect, but progress has been made. My response was not steeped in emotion after AAMI park. My response is stepped in being part of the system, working closely with decision makers, and following the game for close to two decades. Yes we have a professional league and a womens comp, but what actual progress has either of leagues made in terms of quality, crowd numbers, football specific facilities, growth of the grassroots, pathways, coaching development. Only need to look at my club (Brisbane Roar) to see the level of regression that has been made. That Ange side should have been the start of something big for the league, but in essence, nothing came of it and now the league is subpar. We qualified for the WC, but since 2006, what progress have we made as a national team in each of those WCs. We cling so boldly to the "we gave it our all" rather than "we are here to compete". So often with the national team, losing but trying hard is commended. We see it all the time. In 2009, off the back of the golden generation, we got as low as 14 in the rankings. It was steady decline after, with our worst being 102 in 2014. We've been teetering in the high 30's, low 40's the last 11 years. Winning the Asian Cup is definitely an achievement, but what progress has been since then. We did not use it as a springboard to do better. How has our national team progressed since. Our WC was a decent one no doubt, but people keep forgetting how close we came to not being at this WC. I agree, buts these are questions for what progress has been made in the last 10 years as we’re certainly in a better place than 2002.
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zimbos_05
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+x+x+x+xThere is one simple answer to this question. We haven't progressed. I know emotions are up at the present time but come on. 20 years ago we had a part timers men’s league, no women’s comp and hadn’t qualified for the WC in almost 30 years. All those have been overcome, we’ve even won the Asian cup ffs. It’s by no means perfect, but progress has been made. My response was not steeped in emotion after AAMI park. My response is stepped in being part of the system, working closely with decision makers, and following the game for close to two decades. Yes we have a professional league and a womens comp, but what actual progress has either of leagues made in terms of quality, crowd numbers, football specific facilities, growth of the grassroots, pathways, coaching development. Only need to look at my club (Brisbane Roar) to see the level of regression that has been made. That Ange side should have been the start of something big for the league, but in essence, nothing came of it and now the league is subpar. We qualified for the WC, but since 2006, what progress have we made as a national team in each of those WCs. We cling so boldly to the "we gave it our all" rather than "we are here to compete". So often with the national team, losing but trying hard is commended. We see it all the time. In 2009, off the back of the golden generation, we got as low as 14 in the rankings. It was steady decline after, with our worst being 102 in 2014. We've been teetering in the high 30's, low 40's the last 11 years. Winning the Asian Cup is definitely an achievement, but what progress has been since then. We did not use it as a springboard to do better. How has our national team progressed since. Our WC was a decent one no doubt, but people keep forgetting how close we came to not being at this WC. I agree, buts these are questions for what progress has been made in the last 10 years as we’re certainly in a better place than 2002. I suppose I am being harsh and not looking at pre-start of A-league. If you are specifically looking at 2002, yes there has been little progression. In saying that, there will always be some progression if you take a big enough period of the past as your comparison. It could be asked how have we progressed in any 10/20/30/40 year period and there will be some sort of progression. Even the most minimal. However, our main progression started stagnating around 2009/2010, and we have been very much in a lack of progression period for quite some time.
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LFC.
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Very well countered Zimbos as done in the past. it’s all very frustrating for genuine supporters like many here but many are blinded by what’s on top over all these years and your spot on not much improved underneath. Just like a book front cover but what’s or where is in the content. Always talk of carrying on after some success, if anything the last one being the Asian Cup what did our governance do to capitalise and foster more and new growth. More money at grass roots needs to especially as our game keeps being most participated purely on the base’s for many with young families throwing their kids into football whilst other codes are too aggressive in this day and age and on the nose. Facilities are no better than when I was a kid many years ago barring the syn pitch’s for the higher levels. Be it the FFA now FA as for running a business our football they are all failures. Our code should be flying by now and really making inroads commercially and organically bottom up. Then the other codes And media would have no choice but to suck it up due the momentum really picking up steam not rest on these sugar coat nice hits like the WC the other week. We get this sniff of a high then that’s it and the hope rests on this isolated league that just isn’t delivering enough due to its whole set up with so many restrictions for growth. On one hand we have a bottle neck league on the other we leave the below to fend for themselves. If watching from the outside it’s for all to see wtf can’t our governing bodies Fed and State.
Love Football
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