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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 15K,
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+x+x+x+xHahahahahaa NSL clubs with established fan bases? You mean Adelaide and Perth? The rest averaged maybe 2k, and that was during the glory days when migrant clubs and communities were at their strongest. Who was the idiot who said ALL the expansion clubs have been failures? WSW ffs?The fact that WU and Macarthur are sucking big time is not an indictment on the A league as a whole or evidence of its failure, it just means those particular clubs are sucking it big time.
The NRL romantics would do well to remember that the just THREE of the NSL foundation clubs were still in the top flight by the time it dissolved in 2004. In fact, over 40 clubs played in the NSL, that’s a lot of failure for a competition that was apparently so wonderful and successful.
'lets be Frank all the expansion sides bar WSW have been a flop
NQF - folded
Melbourne Heart - ended up taken over now Melbourne City [id argue City is a success or a lesser extent but Heart was a failure]
Nix - this club is a joke
GCU -folded
that random NSW team that folded before they kicked a ball i dont remember their name
Bulls - should fold probably will
WU - should fold might survive
NZ Knights - Folded'learn you read you bloke it is literally a few comments above and I specifically mentioned WSW but one club out of 9 its not a good result If the above clubs only two are folds; GCU and NQF. Heart definitely did not fold and Knights relocated to Wellington where they have been moderately successful, despite poor results. So in almost twenty years of A league, only two folds is a pretty good outcome. MacArthur still has potential but they entered at the wrong time as Covid hit. WU will die unless they build the stadium they promised. The problem with both of these clubs is FFA saw opportunity with being in rapidly expanding markets, not understanding that large, growing population does not equate with affinity for the area. I have been in Brisbane for over 20 years, but still waiting for a team from Canberra to enter. Football is tribal, which is why WSW was a huge success, and why plastic fantastic Wyndham city and MacArthur have been abject failures. If they allowed teams from moderate but established population bases and decent stadia, eg Canberra, Wollongong etc the result might have been different. Heart's owners are the luckiest bastards in Australian football. A cool $ 12 miil for failing franchise. CFG didn't even want Heart-they wanted Sydney FC but their billionaire owner wasn't gonna let a trillionaire take his little plaything away from him. Didn't MCG sell Mooy for $16 million thereby recouping the money they paid and then some? All any of these big clubs need when buying these little teams is one gem to come good and they're laughing. $12 million would be pocket change for a mob like MCG. Edit: https://www.foxsports.com.au/football/premier-league/aaron-mooy-sold-by-manchester-city-to-huddersfield-for-more-than-aleagues-melbourne-city-club-cost/news-story/62684fb2cf4c97fdae2680337e080714
Member since 2008.
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xThe funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently For all the politics, backstabbing, mudslinging etc everyone involved in the game knows deep down we would've been better if the game kept Lowy involved. If you can set aside your bias, ego and bitterness, and put the game first. If you mean just the Aleague then I guess I agree with you..... The man knows how to turn a buck that's for sure.... For one thing he wouldn't have let the FA even dream of a second division or ever letting the wogs back into his league. Now what the definition of "put the game first" as compared to Lowy's is .... thats a different story. Beware of the rhetoric. Wait until something is actually up and running. Then let's decide from their actions. A NST being implemented without promotion to Aleague was always going to be discussed in time. With or without Lowy.
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xThe funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL.
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Davstar
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xThe funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money
these Kangaroos can play football -
Ange P. (Intercontinental WC Play-offs 2017)
KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xThe funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
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Davstar
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
these Kangaroos can play football -
Ange P. (Intercontinental WC Play-offs 2017)
KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xThe funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money Own home grounds - Melbourne knights, Marconi, Sydney united. The rest were renters. Sydney Olympic was a travelling circus. Almost as bad as WU, but just around Sydney. Training facility - see above. Community events - also ethnic community events. What else are you trying to claim? Youth. -. Yes. But what did that achieve? How many south melb players came through the ranks? 20 in 27 years? Knights and Sydney united probably the most. Community engagement - also known as ethnic communities. They didn't need to do any engagement at all. Churches, social clubs, soccer clubs was the only place the Greeks, Croats, Italians, Macedonians familiesq went in the 70's and 80's. What else did they do for community engagement?? Where do you think these volunteers came from?? Open structure in NSL? What do you exactly mean open structure? Can you name the years this occured??
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. Exactly And that's why the smaller community clubs didn't dominate as long as others while the community dwindled. Think Hungarian, Dutch, polish, etc. They assimilated quicker. The Croatians, greeks and Italians lasted longer because of the 60/70's immigration that boosted numbers and kept the club's alive longer. The next generation didn't uphold the club's as their parents did. Not sure if the original poster was around during NSL days???
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. [/quote]i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible.
Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats.
That's was embarassing and costly to the league.
A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's.
The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal.
The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit.
Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof.
City and Adelaide GF please 🙏
will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season
Perhaps an initial decline.
Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps.
Adelaide back to normal.
Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small.
Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too.
Wellington. No change really.
WU and Mac same poor crowds.
SFC - may have been poor because of performance.
WSW - not the same since Parra days.
MC - always ordinary.
Let's see what the derby is like.
The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps.
Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact.
The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens.
Agreed
Fair point
Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders.
3 years left of this P+ deal??
I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel.
The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is.
That must now be the sole criterion.
Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal.
Hard to argue with this.
I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round.
They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot.
A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service.
I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL.
The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy.
Utter garbage.
Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number?
You got what you wished for.
I have some recollection of those early days.
Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good.
For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum).
That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had).
SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure.
Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia?
For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off.
So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion..
All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently
Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport
but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight.
What NSL structure are you talking about??
League formed with no wog named clubs.
Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?)
Split divisions. (84-89?)
Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?)
Some years P/R
Most years no P/R
Franchises created (90's)
NZ team created and brought into NSL
Clubs promoted en masse (1984)
Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?)
What structure exactly was better??
** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL.
most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums
most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost
they had there own community events
they had youth from u6s to u18s
they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers
there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers
the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now
tell me what the AL has outside of TV money
That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia.
But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977.
The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle [/quote]No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
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Davstar
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 9K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so.
there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. [/quote]Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. I dont disagree with you on anything bar the last point We're not going to be the EPL but we could easily be the Croatian football league (Hrvatska nogometna liga), The Dutch league (eredivisie) etc the way our salary cap dumpster fire league has been set up is 'very' Americanised it essentially kills clubs getting 'large' transfer fees on players developed. This might be a stretch but Ajax Sold Anthony for Man Utd for 100m Euros (~160m AUD) - we struggle to even get over 1m AUD let alone a good fee like 20-50m etc The Croatian league sells players every season for 10-20m Euros with sell on clauses i think Modric made DZ like 30m Euro all up with his sell on clauses. I mean 30m Euro is about 45m AUD that is almost the entire annual takes from the TV deal and that is 1 player! The league is too 'Australian' eccentric this only works for AFL as it is the 'only nation' that plays the code so there is no competition, it works to a lesser extent for NRL becuz the NRL is seen as the top competition for rugby. The structure has brought in TV money but frankly i dont think the TV money sustainable - Fox has abandon us and i think Paramount/10 is looking at anyway to pay as little as possible for rights to the games - after 1 season they kicked us to 10 BOLD Obviously the FA need to shoulder a lot of blame why allow the WWC rights to go to 7 and not to 10? im not sure if it was their decision but surely they could influence it. the structure is too 'Australian/Americanised' when Europe is the gold standard for football our governing body are more interested in rainbows then grass roots
these Kangaroos can play football -
Ange P. (Intercontinental WC Play-offs 2017)
KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level.
The model we have does not impact the quality at all.
The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage.
There is no magic bullet.
China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country.
Surely it should've improved everything ??
No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. [/quote]I dont disagree with you on anything bar the last point We're not going to be the EPL but we could easily be the Croatian football league (Hrvatska nogometna liga), The Dutch league (eredivisie) etc the way our salary cap dumpster fire league has been set up is 'very' Americanised it essentially kills clubs getting 'large' transfer fees on players developed. This might be a stretch but Ajax Sold Anthony for Man Utd for 100m Euros (~160m AUD) - we struggle to even get over 1m AUD let alone a good fee like 20-50m etc The Croatian league sells players every season for 10-20m Euros with sell on clauses i think Modric made DZ like 30m Euro all up with his sell on clauses. I mean 30m Euro is about 45m AUD that is almost the entire annual takes from the TV deal and that is 1 player! The league is too 'Australian' eccentric this only works for AFL as it is the 'only nation' that plays the code so there is no competition, it works to a lesser extent for NRL becuz the NRL is seen as the top competition for rugby. The structure has brought in TV money but frankly i dont think the TV money sustainable - Fox has abandon us and i think Paramount/10 is looking at anyway to pay as little as possible for rights to the games - after 1 season they kicked us to 10 BOLD Obviously the FA need to shoulder a lot of blame why allow the WWC rights to go to 7 and not to 10? im not sure if it was their decision but surely they could influence it. the structure is too 'Australian/Americanised' when Europe is the gold standard for football Football is part of Croatia's and the Netherlands national identity. They have played in World Cup Finals. They have players with Champions League/ European Cup winners medals. I wish we had that history but we don't As a result our players will always be under-valued. I believe Paramount paid what they did BECAUSE they thought we are like America. They saw it as an opportunity to get in on the ground level and grow it, and become like the MLS. They now understand the Australian sporting landscape and football's place in it. Once the Paramount deal ends, I can't see anybody else paying that sort of money. When that happens will Australia still have a fully pro football league?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xThe funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently For all the politics, backstabbing, mudslinging etc everyone involved in the game knows deep down we would've been better if the game kept Lowy involved. If you can set aside your bias, ego and bitterness, and put the game first. If you mean just the Aleague then I guess I agree with you..... The man knows how to turn a buck that's for sure.... For one thing he wouldn't have let the FA even dream of a second division or ever letting the wogs back into his league. Now what the definition of "put the game first" as compared to Lowy's is .... thats a different story. Beware of the rhetoric. Wait until something is actually up and running. Then let's decide from their actions. A NST being implemented without promotion to Aleague was always going to be discussed in time.
With or without Lowy. Are you sure about that??? The NPL clubs and AAFC making too much noise bullied this much prgress through.... FAs alternatives seemed to be end of year champion leagues, more Aleague academy yoof teams etc etc.... IF the APL didnt break away from the FFA I would be comfrotable stating that this (even tiny progress) would not have happened.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so.
there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. [/quote]Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years?
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level.
The model we have does not impact the quality at all.
The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage.
There is no magic bullet.
China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country.
Surely it should've improved everything ??
No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. [/quote]Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri )
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. [/quote]Exactly And that's why the smaller community clubs didn't dominate as long as others while the community dwindled. Think Hungarian, Dutch, polish, etc. They assimilated quicker. The Croatians, greeks and Italians lasted longer because of the 60/70's immigration that boosted numbers and kept the club's alive longer. The next generation didn't uphold the club's as their parents did. Not sure if the original poster was around during NSL days??? Pretty much this.... A few larger clubs are hanging on by the skin of their teeth but 40 years of forced "assimilationism" and dwindling migration numbers, together with ageing original fans has killed alot of the pulling power of these clubs Tomorrow night Im going to Green Gully Ajax, a once mighty Maltese backed club, its own ground, pokie venue and played a couple of seasons in the NSL ..... tomorrow they will have maybe 200-300 home supporters..... Not a slur on them at all..... It is what it is.... If there was a way, back in the NSL days that they could have been relegated into a second division, worked their way back up and not had to worry about how they "presented" themselves to "mainstream" Australia, perhaps they could have been in a much better place now....... 40 years of de-woggyfying has killed off the original well meaning dreams of a bunhc of new-Australians......
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Flytox
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level.
The model we have does not impact the quality at all.
The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage.
There is no magic bullet.
China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country.
Surely it should've improved everything ??
No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. [/quote]Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? The first football association in Australia was formed in Sydney in 1882(3). In Melbourne it was a year later.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. [/quote]i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model.
Exactly.
Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one?
If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all.
A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.)
That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? [/quote]Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri ) Yeah granted but early 1900s and just before WW2 it was a bit of a sliding doors moment.... Nevertheless, wiping out the previous decades history every time a new "soccer revolution" happens in this country is pretty fuckin dumb wouldn't you say? Maybe that why it is the #1 sport in all these other countries, regardless of their population..
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Footyball
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Originated in Dharawal, just north of blue mountains, three days in the saddle....and a cowboy hat.
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SUTHERLANDBEAR
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. [/quote]i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model.
Exactly.
Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one?
If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all.
A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.)
That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
I dont disagree with you on anything bar the last point We're not going to be the EPL but we could easily be the Croatian football league (Hrvatska nogometna liga), The Dutch league (eredivisie) etc the way our salary cap dumpster fire league has been set up is 'very' Americanised it essentially kills clubs getting 'large' transfer fees on players developed. This might be a stretch but Ajax Sold Anthony for Man Utd for 100m Euros (~160m AUD) - we struggle to even get over 1m AUD let alone a good fee like 20-50m etc The Croatian league sells players every season for 10-20m Euros with sell on clauses i think Modric made DZ like 30m Euro all up with his sell on clauses. I mean 30m Euro is about 45m AUD that is almost the entire annual takes from the TV deal and that is 1 player! The league is too 'Australian' eccentric this only works for AFL as it is the 'only nation' that plays the code so there is no competition, it works to a lesser extent for NRL becuz the NRL is seen as the top competition for rugby. The structure has brought in TV money but frankly i dont think the TV money sustainable - Fox has abandon us and i think Paramount/10 is looking at anyway to pay as little as possible for rights to the games - after 1 season they kicked us to 10 BOLD Obviously the FA need to shoulder a lot of blame why allow the WWC rights to go to 7 and not to 10? im not sure if it was their decision but surely they could influence it. the structure is too 'Australian/Americanised' when Europe is the gold standard for football [/quote]Football is part of Croatia's and the Netherlands national identity. They have played in World Cup Finals. They have players with Champions League/ European Cup winners medals. I wish we had that history but we don't As a result our players will always be under-valued. I believe Paramount paid what they did BECAUSE they thought we are like America. They saw it as an opportunity to get in on the ground level and grow it, and become like the MLS. They now understand the Australian sporting landscape and football's place in it. Once the Paramount deal ends, I can't see anybody else paying that sort of money. When that happens will Australia still have a fully pro football league? ADP had a champions league medal.
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roosty
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Group: Banned Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible.
Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats.
That's was embarassing and costly to the league.
A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's.
The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal.
The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit.
Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof.
City and Adelaide GF please 🙏
will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season
Perhaps an initial decline.
Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps.
Adelaide back to normal.
Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small.
Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too.
Wellington. No change really.
WU and Mac same poor crowds.
SFC - may have been poor because of performance.
WSW - not the same since Parra days.
MC - always ordinary.
Let's see what the derby is like.
The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps.
Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact.
The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens.
Agreed
Fair point
Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders.
3 years left of this P+ deal??
I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel.
The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is.
That must now be the sole criterion.
Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal.
Hard to argue with this.
I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round.
They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot.
A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service.
I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL.
The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy.
Utter garbage.
Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number?
You got what you wished for.
I have some recollection of those early days.
Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good.
For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum).
That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had).
SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure.
Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia?
For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off.
So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion..
All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently
Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport
but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight.
What NSL structure are you talking about??
League formed with no wog named clubs.
Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?)
Split divisions. (84-89?)
Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?)
Some years P/R
Most years no P/R
Franchises created (90's)
NZ team created and brought into NSL
Clubs promoted en masse (1984)
Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?)
What structure exactly was better??
** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL.
most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums
most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost
they had there own community events
they had youth from u6s to u18s
they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers
there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers
the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now
tell me what the AL has outside of TV money
That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia.
Exactly And that's why the smaller community clubs didn't dominate as long as others while the community dwindled. Think Hungarian, Dutch, polish, etc. They assimilated quicker. The Croatians, greeks and Italians lasted longer because of the 60/70's immigration that boosted numbers and kept the club's alive longer. The next generation didn't uphold the club's as their parents did. Not sure if the original poster was around during NSL days??? [/quote]Pretty much this.... A few larger clubs are hanging on by the skin of their teeth but 40 years of forced "assimilationism" and dwindling migration numbers, together with ageing original fans has killed alot of the pulling power of these clubs Tomorrow night Im going to Green Gully Ajax, a once mighty Maltese backed club, its own ground, pokie venue and played a couple of seasons in the NSL ..... tomorrow they will have maybe 200-300 home supporters..... Not a slur on them at all..... It is what it is.... If there was a way, back in the NSL days that they could have been relegated into a second division, worked their way back up and not had to worry about how they "presented" themselves to "mainstream" Australia, perhaps they could have been in a much better place now....... 40 years of de-woggyfying has killed off the original well meaning dreams of a bunhc of new-Australians...... Maybe if their dreams didn’t consist of keeping dirty uncultured anglos away from their football club they could have survived. Cant blame their kids and grandkids for identifying as Australian.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit.
Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof.
City and Adelaide GF please 🙏
will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season
Perhaps an initial decline.
Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps.
Adelaide back to normal.
Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small.
Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too.
Wellington. No change really.
WU and Mac same poor crowds.
SFC - may have been poor because of performance.
WSW - not the same since Parra days.
MC - always ordinary.
Let's see what the derby is like.
The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps.
Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact.
The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens.
Agreed
Fair point
Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders.
3 years left of this P+ deal??
I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel.
The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is.
That must now be the sole criterion.
Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal.
Hard to argue with this.
I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round.
They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot.
A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service.
I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL.
The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy.
Utter garbage.
Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number?
You got what you wished for.
I have some recollection of those early days.
Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good.
For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum).
That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had).
SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure.
Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia?
For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off.
So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion..
All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently
Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport
but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight.
What NSL structure are you talking about??
League formed with no wog named clubs.
Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?)
Split divisions. (84-89?)
Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?)
Some years P/R
Most years no P/R
Franchises created (90's)
NZ team created and brought into NSL
Clubs promoted en masse (1984)
Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?)
What structure exactly was better??
** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL.
most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums
most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost
they had there own community events
they had youth from u6s to u18s
they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers
there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers
the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now
tell me what the AL has outside of TV money
That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia.
But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977.
The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle [/quote]No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri ) [/quote]Yeah granted but early 1900s and just before WW2 it was a bit of a sliding doors moment.... Nevertheless, wiping out the previous decades history every time a new "soccer revolution" happens in this country is pretty fuckin dumb wouldn't you say? Maybe that why it is the #1 sport in all these other countries, regardless of their population.. I get where you're coming from. My reply was in the context of why we can't be like Croatia or the Netherlands, where football is the number one sport and has been for a long time. Why isn't football number one here? You'd have to go back the full 120 years to answer that- don't think the A-League and the move to mainstreaming the game in 2005 is the reason.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit.
Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof.
City and Adelaide GF please 🙏
will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season
Perhaps an initial decline.
Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps.
Adelaide back to normal.
Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small.
Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too.
Wellington. No change really.
WU and Mac same poor crowds.
SFC - may have been poor because of performance.
WSW - not the same since Parra days.
MC - always ordinary.
Let's see what the derby is like.
The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps.
Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact.
The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens.
Agreed
Fair point
Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders.
3 years left of this P+ deal??
I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel.
The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is.
That must now be the sole criterion.
Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal.
Hard to argue with this.
I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round.
They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot.
A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service.
I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL.
The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy.
Utter garbage.
Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number?
You got what you wished for.
I have some recollection of those early days.
Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good.
For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum).
That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had).
SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure.
Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia?
For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off.
So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion..
All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently
Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport
but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight.
What NSL structure are you talking about??
League formed with no wog named clubs.
Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?)
Split divisions. (84-89?)
Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?)
Some years P/R
Most years no P/R
Franchises created (90's)
NZ team created and brought into NSL
Clubs promoted en masse (1984)
Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?)
What structure exactly was better??
** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL.
most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums
most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost
they had there own community events
they had youth from u6s to u18s
they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers
there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers
the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now
tell me what the AL has outside of TV money
That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia.
But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977.
The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle [/quote]No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
I dont disagree with you on anything bar the last point
We're not going to be the EPL but we could easily be the Croatian football league (Hrvatska nogometna liga), The Dutch league (eredivisie) etc
the way our salary cap dumpster fire league has been set up is 'very' Americanised it essentially kills clubs getting 'large' transfer fees on players developed.
This might be a stretch but Ajax Sold Anthony for Man Utd for 100m Euros (~160m AUD) - we struggle to even get over 1m AUD let alone a good fee like 20-50m etc
The Croatian league sells players every season for 10-20m Euros with sell on clauses i think Modric made DZ like 30m Euro all up with his sell on clauses. I mean 30m Euro is about 45m AUD that is almost the entire annual takes from the TV deal and that is 1 player!
The league is too 'Australian' eccentric this only works for AFL as it is the 'only nation' that plays the code so there is no competition, it works to a lesser extent for NRL becuz the NRL is seen as the top competition for rugby.
The structure has brought in TV money but frankly i dont think the TV money sustainable - Fox has abandon us and i think Paramount/10 is looking at anyway to pay as little as possible for rights to the games - after 1 season they kicked us to 10 BOLD
Obviously the FA need to shoulder a lot of blame why allow the WWC rights to go to 7 and not to 10? im not sure if it was their decision but surely they could influence it.
the structure is too 'Australian/Americanised' when Europe is the gold standard for football
Football is part of Croatia's and the Netherlands national identity. They have played in World Cup Finals. They have players with Champions League/ European Cup winners medals. I wish we had that history but we don't As a result our players will always be under-valued. I believe Paramount paid what they did BECAUSE they thought we are like America. They saw it as an opportunity to get in on the ground level and grow it, and become like the MLS. They now understand the Australian sporting landscape and football's place in it. Once the Paramount deal ends, I can't see anybody else paying that sort of money. When that happens will Australia still have a fully pro football league? [/quote]ADP had a champions league medal. Del Piero? The local game was flying when he was here but he wasn't an Australian. I know about H as well, but who else?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it.
i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so.
there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. [/quote]Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years?
Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri )
Yeah granted but early 1900s and just before WW2 it was a bit of a sliding doors moment.... Nevertheless, wiping out the previous decades history every time a new "soccer revolution" happens in this country is pretty fuckin dumb wouldn't you say? Maybe that why it is the #1 sport in all these other countries, regardless of their population.. [/quote]I get where you're coming from. My reply was in the context of why we can't be like Croatia or the Netherlands, where football is the number one sport and has been for a long time. Why isn't football number one here? You'd have to go back the full 120 years to answer that- don't think the A-League and the move to mainstreaming the game in 2005 is the reason. The move to mainstreaming the game has been happening since the late 70s though mate.... Yes the Aleague is not the reason football isn't #1 here... obviously, but we NEVER (and in that statement I include the state league wars in 50s in NSW, the NSL launching AND the Aleague) suuceesfully build on exiositing clubs, instead we "tear down the old house to build a new one" maybe if that hadn;t happened this time around things would have been a little better?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia.
Exactly
And that's why the smaller community clubs didn't dominate as long as others while the community dwindled.
Think Hungarian, Dutch, polish, etc. They assimilated quicker.
The Croatians, greeks and Italians lasted longer because of the 60/70's immigration that boosted numbers and kept the club's alive longer.
The next generation didn't uphold the club's as their parents did.
Not sure if the original poster was around during NSL days???
Pretty much this.... A few larger clubs are hanging on by the skin of their teeth but 40 years of forced "assimilationism" and dwindling migration numbers, together with ageing original fans has killed alot of the pulling power of these clubs Tomorrow night Im going to Green Gully Ajax, a once mighty Maltese backed club, its own ground, pokie venue and played a couple of seasons in the NSL ..... tomorrow they will have maybe 200-300 home supporters..... Not a slur on them at all..... It is what it is.... If there was a way, back in the NSL days that they could have been relegated into a second division, worked their way back up and not had to worry about how they "presented" themselves to "mainstream" Australia, perhaps they could have been in a much better place now....... 40 years of de-woggyfying has killed off the original well meaning dreams of a bunhc of new-Australians...... [/quote]Maybe if their dreams didn’t consist of keeping dirty uncultured anglos away from their football club they could have survived. Cant blame their kids and grandkids for identifying as Australian. This is so sad Rusty.... Not all anglos are dirty......
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia.
Exactly
And that's why the smaller community clubs didn't dominate as long as others while the community dwindled.
Think Hungarian, Dutch, polish, etc. They assimilated quicker.
The Croatians, greeks and Italians lasted longer because of the 60/70's immigration that boosted numbers and kept the club's alive longer.
The next generation didn't uphold the club's as their parents did.
Not sure if the original poster was around during NSL days???
Pretty much this.... A few larger clubs are hanging on by the skin of their teeth but 40 years of forced "assimilationism" and dwindling migration numbers, together with ageing original fans has killed alot of the pulling power of these clubs Tomorrow night Im going to Green Gully Ajax, a once mighty Maltese backed club, its own ground, pokie venue and played a couple of seasons in the NSL ..... tomorrow they will have maybe 200-300 home supporters..... Not a slur on them at all..... It is what it is.... If there was a way, back in the NSL days that they could have been relegated into a second division, worked their way back up and not had to worry about how they "presented" themselves to "mainstream" Australia, perhaps they could have been in a much better place now....... 40 years of de-woggyfying has killed off the original well meaning dreams of a bunhc of new-Australians...... [/quote]Maybe if their dreams didn’t consist of keeping dirty uncultured anglos away from their football club they could have survived. Cant blame their kids and grandkids for identifying as Australian. I don't think the clubs and fans did that deliberately. The club's purpose was to serve the needs of the founding community. No-one was unwelcome, but there was no concerted effort to expand beyond that fan base because that wasn't why the club existed. Australia's post-war immigrants assimiliated incredibly quickly and well. I'd say it was inevitable that the connections of the latter generations to the past roots would be lost. It seemed that half of Carlton's AFL fans were Italian-immigrants, or the children of. Until Italy wins a World Cup, then they're Italians again.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle
No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level.
The model we have does not impact the quality at all.
The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage.
There is no magic bullet.
China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country.
Surely it should've improved everything ??
No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model. Exactly. Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one? If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all. A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.) That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it. [/quote]Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri )
Yeah granted but early 1900s and just before WW2 it was a bit of a sliding doors moment....
Nevertheless, wiping out the previous decades history every time a new "soccer revolution" happens in this country is pretty fuckin dumb wouldn't you say? Maybe that why it is the #1 sport in all these other countries, regardless of their population.. I get where you're coming from. My reply was in the context of why we can't be like Croatia or the Netherlands, where football is the number one sport and has been for a long time. Why isn't football number one here? You'd have to go back the full 120 years to answer that- don't think the A-League and the move to mainstreaming the game in 2005 is the reason. [/quote]The move to mainstreaming the game has been happening since the late 70s though mate.... Yes the Aleague is not the reason football isn't #1 here... obviously, but we NEVER (and in that statement I include the state league wars in 50s in NSW, the NSL launching AND the Aleague) suuceesfully build on exiositing clubs, instead we "tear down the old house to build a new one" maybe if that hadn;t happened this time around things would have been a little better? I think they TRIED to find that balance: Hence South Melbourne Hellas, Melbourne/Sydney Croatia, Preston Makedonija APIA Leichardt, Marconi Fairfield . Local place names mixed with ethnic origins. They played in their ethnic national team kits more or less as well to keep that connection. It didn't work. The game's appeal didn't expand. As for tearing down the old house, I've seen plenty who want the A-League torn down. The more things change......the game here is a basket case.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. [/quote]i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model.
Exactly.
Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one?
If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all.
A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.)
That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? [/quote]Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri ) Yeah granted but early 1900s and just before WW2 it was a bit of a sliding doors moment.... Nevertheless, wiping out the previous decades history every time a new "soccer revolution" happens in this country is pretty fuckin dumb wouldn't you say? Maybe that why it is the #1 sport in all these other countries, regardless of their population..
I get where you're coming from. My reply was in the context of why we can't be like Croatia or the Netherlands, where football is the number one sport and has been for a long time. Why isn't football number one here? You'd have to go back the full 120 years to answer that- don't think the A-League and the move to mainstreaming the game in 2005 is the reason.
The move to mainstreaming the game has been happening since the late 70s though mate.... Yes the Aleague is not the reason football isn't #1 here... obviously, but we NEVER (and in that statement I include the state league wars in 50s in NSW, the NSL launching AND the Aleague) suuceesfully build on exiositing clubs, instead we "tear down the old house to build a new one" maybe if that hadn;t happened this time around things would have been a little better? [/quote]I think they TRIED to find that balance: Hence South Melbourne Hellas, Melbourne/Sydney Croatia, Preston Makedonija APIA Leichardt, Marconi Fairfield . Local place names mixed with ethnic origins. They played in their ethnic national team kits more or less as well to keep that connection. It didn't work. The game's appeal didn't expand. As for tearing down the old house, I've seen plenty who want the A-League torn down. The more things change......the game here is a basket case. They tried ALOT of things and as you say the balance was NEVER achievable... We were called the Gunners and Lakers at one stage, Marconi Datsun FFS hahahahahha .. People want the Aleague torn down, just like the wanted the NSL torn down but NOT the actual clubs themselves..... (obviously with the exception of WU, that abominations should fry in hell for eternity. lol)
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Flytox
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]+x[quote]The funny thing about your uber staunchness is, is that you probably don't believe in Grand finals anyway, just like 90% of this board. No matter how you protest, you are hurting the club you claim to love and support. This will not affect the FA or whatever the fuck they call themselves these days, they already have the money. Wrong. I have strongly supported the finals system since day 1 and have been quite vocal about this on this forum. I’m not a Eurosnob who thinks we should copy how they do it in Europe. Finals are an Australian sporting tradition, and we are an Australian league. But playing the GF in Sydney every year will make the championship trophy worthless and meaningless. The APL have devalued it and reduced the incentive to win it. As @gurudave said ^^^, the ones that aren’t going to games and making sacrifices for the betterment of Australian Football are the true football fans. Short term pain for long term gain. As for hurting my own club... They fucked up massively too and deserve to feel the pain. A bit of tough love now to avoid the same mistakes in the future is needed. They have a lot of work to do to win many of us back. +xYep, the only chance I see of reversing this dumb decision is for non-NSW clubs to be in the GF for the next 3 years. Although many people won't protest the regular season, a lot of people will protest the GF if their team makes it. Some by choice, some won't be able to afford the trip, some won't be able to get time off, etc, etc. Either way, people that may have tried to attend simply won't this time around. We already know that Sydney people have next to zero interest in attending a GF as neutrals. Visit NSW will realise there is very little ROI (if any) and won't want to extend the agreement. Other states may be willing to buy the GF, but they won't be offering anywhere near what NSW has paid. Then we can just hope common sense prevails and we return back to the highest ranked gets the GF. Yep. Melbourne City are gonna win the league and host the GF in Sydney. That a given. But we need their opponent to be an Adelaide or a Wellington. Or even a CCM who have a small fan base. We need a GF with 20,000+ empty seats so the Australian media catches on and makes it a big talking point. And the APL are turned into a massive laughingstock. If WSW or Sydney make the GF, the APL will get their full house and they win. Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible. Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. That's was embarassing and costly to the league. A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof. City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season Perhaps an initial decline. Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. Adelaide back to normal. Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. Wellington. No change really. WU and Mac same poor crowds. SFC - may have been poor because of performance. WSW - not the same since Parra days. MC - always ordinary. Let's see what the derby is like. The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. The reality is crowd figures are neither here nor there. The money comes from television and the ratings are an absolute disaster and commercially unsustainable. It isn't lack of people at Live games that will be the demise of the A-League. It's the lack of people in front of TV screens. Agreed Fair point Economic realities need to be considered by the stakeholders. 3 years left of this P+ deal?? I still would've preferred us to have stayed with Foxtel. The key thing is that we need to be wherever the Premier League is. That must now be the sole criterion. Agree but for a broadcaster the A League is now literally of no value. The viewing figures are unequivocal. Hard to argue with this. I mean, Optus weren't even willing to put in a nominal bid last time round. They saw zero value in adding the A-League to their content, which tells us a lot. A serious attempt at crystal ball gazing : at the completion of this TV deal there will be no offers for the rights. They will be commercially toxic. Either the competition folds or it moves to a part time pro competition with APL subcontracting production and managing a subscription streaming service. I've worked in the media industries for over 30 years and I have never seen an asset as mismanaged as the A League has been, first by FFA and then by the APL. The League was grossly undercapitalised from the outset, however, and that's down to Frank Lowy. Utter garbage. Tell me, how much money was pumped into the game by way of TV deals and sponsorships under Lowys leadership? Do you know that number? You got what you wished for. I have some recollection of those early days. Apart from the selling of licenses at around $5 million a pop (Victory wasn't able to meet the full cost in that first season), we had that long term sponsorship deal with Hyundai, which I thinik was pretty good. For that first season, we essentially gave the rights away for next to nothing to Fox, just to get some coverage, and then the following year we had a $120 milll deal for 7 years (around $17 mill per annum). That was followed by a deal for 4 years for $160 mill (or $40 mill per annum), for the first time that included an FTA component, with one game per round on SBS, for which they were paying $7 mill per annum (looking back, that's the sweetest deal we've ever had). SBS got the best ratings we've ever seen for the game, and then, inexplicably, Gallop sabotaged that relationship, and it has sort of been downhill ever since on every measure. Wasn't there a government seed fund as well? And a phone call between Lowy and the then Prime Minister of Australia? For the first season TV deal that was he market value of the game. Lowy got what he could to kick it all off. So you're talking about around $300 Million TV deal for 11 years. You then had sponsorships by mainstream brands like Samsung and Hyundaii and QANTAS. The revenue streams were supported by unheard of regular season and Grand final crowd averages. Say another $300 mill. Over half a $billion.. All that money was Lowys fault. Apparently Lowy did a lot of good for the game in the sense he brought a lot of money into the sport but the closed American style structure of the AL will ultimately kill it the Old NSL was a better structure you're a fool if you cannot agree with that the issue was the ethnic tribalism the clubs seemed to hold onto a 'little' too tight. What NSL structure are you talking about?? League formed with no wog named clubs. Clubs given American style nicknames (1980?) Split divisions. (84-89?) Clubs forced name changes to remove wog names again. (1990?) Some years P/R Most years no P/R Franchises created (90's) NZ team created and brought into NSL Clubs promoted en masse (1984) Clubs demoted en masse for a range of criteria (1989?) What structure exactly was better?? ** Disclaimer - I loved the NSL. most clubs had there own home grounds and suitable sized stadiums most clubs had there own or council based training facilities which was fairly low cost they had there own community events they had youth from u6s to u18s they didnt have a salary cap and managed to get solid transfers there community engagement was so strong the bigger clubs had dozens if not 100s of volunteers the league had an 'open structure' opposed to the close franchiee model we have now tell me what the AL has outside of TV money That was because they were monoethnic social clubs built around the representation of that ethnic group identity through their football team. They were supported by local councils like any other local sporting clubs, and since land was cheap back then, some were able to build small and basic stadia. But this also what limited the scope for growth outside that community and consequently the NSL was unable to support the move to a full time professional national league, despite some clubs being decades old. You might say "I don't want that anyway", but I can assure you that was and has been THE primary long term objective of Australian football since at least the days of the Philips Soccer League in 1977. The A-League's TV money, ( and gate takings and commercial sponsorships and mainstream media support) were the result of Frank Lowy's ambition to broaden the appeal of clubs beyond their ethnic roots and he and the A-League did just that. I get why some hate him for it, but the game needed it. [/quote]i dont 'hate him' the game owes him a lot despite what idiots think the issue is he 'took it too far' it created a model that so incredibly different to what 'top level leagues' are like thus the quality will never be of the level of the EPL, La liga, Bundesliga but the structure can mimic a top level structure it can be just as engaging perhaps even more so. there needs to be a mix of the old NSL and new AL football otherwise i think football will continue to struggle No matter what structure you have in place in this country it will never reach that level. The model we have does not impact the quality at all. The quality we've had over the last few decades is what we've got. Always be a 4th/5th tier league on world stage. There is no magic bullet. China tried. Had the money. The model. P/R. Top level structure. Everything they do in Europe. Actually had a president that promoted football across the country. Surely it should've improved everything ?? No more progress than what we've done in a closed shop model.
Exactly.
Closed versus open comes down to one important difference: do we want a fully-pro closed shop league or a semi-pro P and R one?
If the A-League had continued on the same trajectory it was on when Frank Lowy ran it-if the expansion clubs succeeded in expanding the fan base, if the fans weren't alienated with oiverzeaous policing and policies- we wouldn't be having the P and R discussion at all.
A fourteen team fully pro league would have satisfied most fans (although 16 would be better.)
That didn't happen so a small minority want to emulate nations where football is culturally number one in popularity, has a history going back over a hundred years and huge populations. Lets not forget money- even the established EPL wouldn't be what it is without the foreign money. We can't emulate the EPL and others like it.
Doesn't Australia have a history of fooball going back past 100 years? [/quote]Not as the number one national sport ingrained in the national identity.( unless you mean woggabaliri ) Yeah granted but early 1900s and just before WW2 it was a bit of a sliding doors moment.... Nevertheless, wiping out the previous decades history every time a new "soccer revolution" happens in this country is pretty fuckin dumb wouldn't you say? Maybe that why it is the #1 sport in all these other countries, regardless of their population..
I get where you're coming from. My reply was in the context of why we can't be like Croatia or the Netherlands, where football is the number one sport and has been for a long time. Why isn't football number one here? You'd have to go back the full 120 years to answer that- don't think the A-League and the move to mainstreaming the game in 2005 is the reason.
The move to mainstreaming the game has been happening since the late 70s though mate.... Yes the Aleague is not the reason football isn't #1 here... obviously, but we NEVER (and in that statement I include the state league wars in 50s in NSW, the NSL launching AND the Aleague) suuceesfully build on exiositing clubs, instead we "tear down the old house to build a new one" maybe if that hadn;t happened this time around things would have been a little better? [/quote]I think they TRIED to find that balance: Hence South Melbourne Hellas, Melbourne/Sydney Croatia, Preston Makedonija APIA Leichardt, Marconi Fairfield . Local place names mixed with ethnic origins. They played in their ethnic national team kits more or less as well to keep that connection. It didn't work. The game's appeal didn't expand. As for tearing down the old house, I've seen plenty who want the A-League torn down. The more things change......the game here is a basket case. Changing the names of the Sydney clubs at the start of the NSL after 20 years of isolation from the bulk of football players in Sydney who played in the district associations was never going to bridge the gap between the two. Interestingly by 1977 most of the migrant heritage clubs had their junior players playing in their teams in the district association competitions and over time many of the migrant parents had become actively involved in those organisations but that didn't provide a sufficient link for the bulk of the district association players to identify with the local migrant heritage club as their club in the elite competitions.
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PGR
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Group: Forum Members
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+x40 years of forced "assimilationism" 40 years of de-woggyfying has killed off the original well meaning dreams of a bunhc of new-Australians...... You mean had they continued to waive foreign flags, sing nationalist songs, burn flares like they did in their mother country, fight wars that had nothing to do with the land they lived in and boo the Australian national anthem......the sport would be booming? lol.
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