Its Labors referendum.

You seem to watch Sky and Bolt FAR more than I do.  

It's disingenuous to blame Labor for instigating a $350 million dollar referendum unilaterally, against a conservative leader of opposition, without any form of consultation or negotiation and a historical trend of referendum defeats in the absence of bipartisanship? 

Make no mistake muz. This is an absolute ALP cock up, fuck up, screw up, of the highest, tallest possible magnitude. It may go down as the greatest political own goal in all of Australian history. Albo and his governments legacy will be defined by this catastraphic failure for all eternity.  No amount of "but but but d.d.d.d wiberals didnt do anyfng" will change that.

So there you go. 

Done and dusted.

Status quo remains.

What a travesty. Albanese should step down as a courtesy to the Indigenous. Absolute plonker.

Let's not try and rewrite history. Every state Premier and Opposition leader supported the referendum. The Nationals were the only ones to oppose it. The Liberals were agnostic and allowed their members to campaign either way.

Then they lost the Aston by-election. The subsequent partyroom confirmed their agnostic view. Dutton chose in the subsequent press conference to state that the Liberals will be voting no. Rather than it be Albanese's own goal this will go down as Dutton's greatest political own goal in all of Australian history. The powers that be in the NSW and Vic Liberal party were unlikely to let a Qld go to the next election. If they are to win they will need to win the teal seats of Goldstein, Kooyong, Mackellar, North Sydney and Warringah and Wentworth - all that have voted convincingly yes. Curtin in WA may well go the same way.

Politcally, Dutton wanted to take paint of Albanese. All he has done is sign his own political death warrant while Albanese's government is more popular in TPP than at the May 2022 election.  

As I watch the TV results of "The Voice" referendum results of around 40/60 No/Yes - it struck me that this is around the split of the different types of personalities in society.

The split is between (1) people who make decisions based on compassion, versus (2) people who make decisions on abstract ideas.

I know stacks of people who are primarily compassion driven, and these tend to vote for socialist causes, e.g. Labor, Democrats, Yes-vote. You see this in the ABC TV commentators appealing for Yes votes pointing to the struggles of Aborigines having a lower life-age expectancy.

On the other hand, people like myself are driven by more abstract ideas, such as: that we want an Australia where every race is equal, and not divided by race.

I see no way of breaching this compassion versus abstract-idea thinking, because this is hard-wired into the way people think.

For instance, for a person who is driven by compassion to help aborigines citing the poor health standards, they just don't get it that the person who votes for equality-in-law also cares for Aborigines just as much, but is motivated by the ideals of equality-before-the-law.

I'll give an example of how impossible it is to shift this hard-wired way of thinking. I have a friend who votes Labor and Democrat. She says it's because "she wants to help people". So I asked her about the parable of giving a man a fish, or teaching them to fish. Which does she prefer? She said: Teach them to fish. Then I said, Does that mean you will support political parties that have policies to help people to fish. I could see her mind go into "cognitive dissonance" mode.

Hence, no matter whether, at the logical level, she supports "teaching people how to fish" - but she will keep voting for political parties that are geared to giving people free fish. She cannot change. She is not guided by logical concepts. She is driven by her heart which wants to help people.

This is an example why most issues always roughly has a 50/50 split plus or minus a bit, because the entire society is split between these two ways of thinking, and neither side can change the way their brains are hard-wired.

If that makes you feel a bit better about tonight's drubbing then go for it champ. 

Conveniently you didn't mention that a bunch of Labor electorates overwhelmingly voted no, including Linda Burney. Conveniently that escaped your little analysis  didn't it.

Dutton isn't an idiot, supporting the referendum wouldn't have made any difference to his fortunes in those inner city, north beaches, teal seats. The only thing that will swing those seats back to the Libs is severe economic pain under labor. Probably they are lost for a very long time. Dutton knows this, the demographic tides are changing, the Libs will simply recalibrate their strategy to target the suburbs. 

Conveniently you didn't mention that a bunch of Labor electorates overwhelmingly voted no, including Linda Burney. Conveniently that escaped your little analysis  didn't it.

First of all it wasn't an analysis originally. It was a prediction originally made on the day of Dutton's announcement of the Liberal no position. There is also a good reason to not include either Liberal or Labor current seats as Indigenous affairs will be a 10th order issue at an election - not a first order as it was in the referendum. The Teals are a different vote. These are traditionally Liberal supporters that are looking for a reason to return to the fold.

Dutton isn't an idiot, supporting the referendum wouldn't have made any difference to his fortunes in those inner city, north beaches, teal seats.

The fact that you are thinking that way for the next election means that you think the Coalition will not be looking to win those seats back. The fact that Dutton has now assured that kind of negates your comment that he isn't an idiot.  

But if you truly think that spending $350 million on an "unlosable referendum" and setting back reconciliation by decades is  a good thing for his political fortunes then sir I admire your optimism.

There is no such thing as an 'unlosable referendum'. They almost never pass. If there is any reason for optimism it is that Albanese did spend the $350 million. The Coalition went to each of the elections from 2013 to 2022 promising a referendum on constitutional recognition for Indigenous Australians within their first 12 months. They were promised bipartisan support from the ALP. The optimism should come from a government delivering on a promise. 

The fact that while the referendum went down might have a small effect on Albanese's fortunes. But the fact that the polls have him and his government more popular than they were when they were elected kind of suggests that Dutton's ploy to politicise something that the Liberals (not the Nationals) have gone to the electorate supporting since 2013 has not worked.    

I consider myself a natural 'Menzies Liberal'. But since the rooting out of moderates and the installation of extreme conservatives starting with Viner, McPhee, Steele Hall et al that Party no longer exists. The Liberals always stood for being economically conservative but socially inclusive remembering 'the forgotten people' rather than catering exclusively for big business and big miners the better. The majority of Australian voters are not extremists. Probably 80% or more occupy the middle ground. Moving to the right as the Liberals have is simply vacating the field. The sooner they move back towards the middle the better.      

Completely agree with this.  This particularly apparent in Victoria.  There's a large majority in the middle who do not want to vote Labor- and there is a big swing against Labor by "the forgotten people" that live in traditional Labor heartland- but the Liberals are unelectable here.

lol

Dutton supporting the voice wasnt going to win him back the teal seats. What a silly comment.

The teal seats are dead to the liberals. There’s a school of thought that is the Liberals transform themselves into a trendy lite green party on social issues they will win back those seats, but the demographics and voting profiles of those electorates is radically different to the rest of the country. Dutton needs 76 seats to win government,
 transforming himself and the party into Teal party to win 3-4 seats in inner Sydney makes no sense at all. Those teal seats can return to the Liberals when they realise a vote for teal is a vote for Labor.

According to Albo this was the “unlosable referendum”. He knew the history of failed referendums and yet chose to go it alone, because of some unreliable opinion polls, his high approval rating compared to dutton, and a misguided belief that Australians were progressive enough to insert wokeness into the constitution. If they had any inkling at all that they could have lost so dramatically do you think they would have taken the same unilateral approach?

There are all kinds of nuffies on the left and far left who call themselves ‘Menzies liberals’. It probably makes them feel more balanced and centrist, like it its not enough to be Labor,  they are also the heart and soul of the once marvellous Liberal party before it was corrupted by neo nazies and facsists. It must feel amazing to occupy nearly the entire political spectrum.

The Liberal party hasnt been overtaken by “extremists”, this is just a slur that Left broadcasts to shame and embarrass centre right supporters. Neither has the LNP lurched to the right, its policies now are Labor esque compared to the Howard, Abbott governments. After the disasters of the Turnbull & Morrisson governments, the party is simply returning to its natural state and purpose, with a primary focus on economic matters.

Good to see the everyday common folk at the IPA, the Murdoch Family and Gina Rinehart stick it to those lofty elites in their ivory towers of Kununarra, Fitzroy Crossing and Kakadu

Its actually true that the YES vote was concentrated in inner city, high income, high wealth expensive property locations.

Actually re-thinking it, its a crafty move by Labor party.... Fulfils a pr-election promise to hold a referendum, makes it seem like Labors intent was well meaning and it was "shot down" by LNP and greedy White Australia... all the while keeping the Labor faithful happy in their so called "progressivness"  Albo may yet be a crafty little bugger I didn't credit him for. 

Nah man Albo looked devastated.  I actually like the guy-old school Labor, hope he isn't rolled by the terrible woke trio in Shorten Plibersek and Bowen

And higher intelligence. :D

I see in Price's seat 3/4 indigenous voted yes.....

not exactly, just more degrees

So what? There are a bunch of high proportion Indigenous electorates where the Voice was absolutely smashed. The claim that 80% Indigenous supported the Voice was found to be misinformation, disinformation, lies, fake news. 

Actually in remote polling stations where the indigenous made up 80 or 90% of voters the YES vote averaged about 70%. 

Indigenous people voted YES on average about 70%.

He'll move the goal posts/ 

Look at their pitch 'If you don't know' 

Their whole thing was based on being stupid, targeting the stupid and asking them to remain stupid. 

We live in an idicracy. I am not advocating for either vote but it's clear stupidity was targetted. 

tsf, you're showing your mob-thinking. You're just following the instructions of how your Media overlords told you to attack the No-voters.

Would you agree there's a difference between being "stupid" versus being "prudent and wise".

If someone asks you to write them a blank cheque -- and you (tsf) ask them: how much are you going to withdraw -- and they say, "I'll tell you later". It is not stupid to say, "Then I'm not giving you the blank cheque.

The Labor-Lefties did not show us the wording of the amendment to the Constitution; did not tell us who would be on "the Voice" panel; did not tell us what checks and balances there would be.

I have a video of Aborigine activist, Thomas Mayo, saying that once Aborigine rights are in the Constitution, they're going to "use the rulebook of the government for force them". He wants to build a "black nation", a "black institution", "a force to be reckoned with", "tear down the institutions that harm us", "to pay respects to the Communist Party ... that has played an important role in our [aborigine] activism". [the Voice Referendum] is the first step", to make all Australians "pay the rent", "reparations", "punish politicians that ignore our advice [from the Voice].

Here is the video so you can see those quotes above being spoken:  https://youtu.be/655mzGRmkZw?

So, it's not that they didn't want to tell you. It's the REASON they didn't tell you - because it would be too horrific.

It depends how much you trust the Leftist Labor Greens politicians.

And so you see, tsf, your way of thinking through issues is consistent with vaccines and the Voice. You literally just follow what the Media tells you to spout.

This Voice thing is not going away. The people pushing this do not care a stuff about the wishes of the majority of Australians who voted No. They will seek to bring this in through hidden means. Already, South Australia said they will bring in the Voice concepts at State level.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-11/south-australia-first-jurisdiction-indigenous-voice-parliament/102082662

tsf, are you going to withdraw your accusation - that people who voted NO to the above, are stupid?

Yes: "If you don't know find out!".

No: "Find out what?"

Yes: "We'll tell you after".

Yeah probably.

I was talking to my wife about this yesterday and I was saying people voted the way they voted. Fine, whatever. But I was annoyed at how the campaign was conducted.

Especially the fear-mongering by the NO camp. 'They're coming to steal your house', reparations, UN plot, communists etc etc. The kind of shit fuckwits like johnsmith (lowercase) would believe.

I saw Joyce interviewed and the reporter said 'didn't you feel the NO camp should move to address some of the misinformation that's being fed out to the community'. (Paraphrasing here.)

Joyce: Sidestepped the question quite neatly and talked about division.

Basically happy to let the bushfire burn everything down because it suited them.

I suppose the NO camp would say that's not their role to counter misinformation or say 'hang on, it's not about this, it's about that' but still it's average at best. 5 minutes on twitter or facebook and you could see the ridiculousness of some of the claims. (Writ large by boofheads like (lowercase) johnsmithit would believe.)

The other thing that killed the YES campaign (IMO) was Jacinta Price saying idiotic things like colonisation hasn't been bad for aborigines. (Still not sure how she could say that with a straight face.) I read some commentary about her and Thorpe. The commentary was around the fact that the right had been waiting decades for someone who would say basically what white people wanted to hear and couldn't say themselves. And they did that non-stop.

The 7.30 report tried to get her on for an interview for 6 solid months and not once did she accept.

I'm interested in Lidia Thorpe's call for a Treaty now. Being the 'darling' of the right for the last year I wonder how long she'll remain so if she starts pushing this Treaty hard. About 5 minutes I'd imagine.


One other thing. Everyone is saying say Albo pushed this on Australia and that no one wanted it and wasn't representative.

The facts are the Uluru statement was the result of years of consultation with hundreds of first nations people. It couldn't be more representative. These people asked him to take this to a referendum.

Albo gave a commitment to those people. The referendum wasn't 'Albo's referendum' it was for the first nations people who asked for it.

I'll help.

An advisory body to advise on issues pertaining to first nations people. Powers and responsibilities to be decided by the parliament. 

Exactly.  Too vague.  Too general.  

One lunatic aboriginal activist is not every aboriginal in Australia.

I can show you videos of white supremacists and neo-Nazis. I can show you videos from years ago (and now) calling for a restoration of the white Australia policy. Does that make everyone in Australia a white supremacist?

Didn't think so. As much as you talk about evidence and being swayed by mob mentality you are clearly, easily swayed by misinformation. 

You literally are the type of person that reads facebook misinformation and believes it.

I notice by the way you never answered my question about whether the earth is flat and/or 6000 years old. I would very much like to hear what you say about this.

Not sure what part of 'advisory' is problematic for you but then I understand that you're philosophically opposed to it and that's fair enough. (I wouldn't lump your NO vote in with a goose such as (lowercase) johnsmith. He is nuts.) 



One things for sure though. A Republic is further off than ever.

Pretty sure they'd just roll out the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it', and 'if you don't know, vote no' arguments again. Seems like a fairly successful strategy.

There are many organisations link concerned with indigenous issues.

• Government organisations
• Indigenous representative organisations
• Indigenous non-profit organisations
• Other non-profit organisations

Err... South Australia already has the Voice. Malinauskas introduced it early this year without any sort of consensus. The opposition are now talking of getting rid of it.

Some days I think he absolutely has to be a troll.