How about being a good person because you want to be a good person? 

Because that's not how people are. And when its been tried, we know what happened.  (BTW Hitler mocked religion even as a child.  It was however  a useful tool for his regime).

Well really that's the end of this discussion isn't it. Your belief is people can't be good without religion and/or a belief in God.

It's interesting that you need to fear something to be a good person. And it is fear, you said as much yourself. I find that odd and a bit disturbing to be honest. You're really like a child looking forward to Christmas aren't you? Now look little Enzo if you're naughty then you won't get a present. 

Rolls eyes.  Its  a fact that most people are "good" people.  Of the few that aren't, some  are capable of destroying an entire family, community or nation.  If they fear nothing they will destroy everything.

There's not much else to say. 

Again, you're looking at the past without context of what life was like in those times. you do not know what would have happened in Godless societies (actually you do-look at the 20 th century the misery caused in half a century by Godless societies was truly breathtaking.

You know what we do know though?

How people behaved under a belief in God. Hundreds of millions of dead from widespread pogroms, crusades, invasions, missionaries to 'convert savages' and all the rest of it. Just wonderful.

For a start, where do you get your hundreds of millions figures from? But say you are right-lets look at the alternative: 2 secularist wars in WW1 and WW2- in just 8 years resulted in 100 million deaths alone.  Then all the other secularist wars that followed in the 20th century and 21 st century, the socialists and communists who starved and oppressed their own people.  What's the atrocity and harm index in Godless societies?

Plus you're confusing the teachings of the Bible with the actions of mankind in its name.

Yep the old get out. 'It's not the bible that's to blame, it's man'. How very convenient.

Its a legitimate point.  The Bible literally says we are all sinners and to beware of false prophets.  The people in the chirch are not exempt.

But lets say the Bible is to blame..lets ban it..no lets burn that book.  What do you think will fill the void-I know- lets replace it with Marx's Communist Manifesto and Das kapital.  What could go wrong?

Nice crutch to cling to to blame all the world's ills on. If only more people believed in God then we wouldn't being having all of these troubles. Cough, cough Israel / Palestine. Wait up, one mob believes in the right god, one doesn't. Carry on then.

The current conflict is not religious-its geopolitical.  The leaders may be invoking God, but the dispute is about territory.


You talk about the 'context of the times'.

Think about being a ruler at any time during history. Do you want a bunch of subservient vassals and serfs you can scare half to death through religion or do you want a society full of free thinkers and progressives?

Well that depends on what version of free thinkers and progressive you're talking about.  The current ones seem to be so open-minded their brains have fallen out.  Worse, far from progressive they're baheving like repressive fascists except they are just too stupid and at the same time "educated" to realize it.

 What better way to rule a people then through a 'divine ordination' through God. (Religion has entered the chat.) 

Compared to which secularist society-not imagined, idealized ones?  Real ones.
 
I like how you took the time to address some of my points but conveniently ignored my a whole post about the literal hundreds of millions killed because people believed god gave them the divine right to do so. 'Oh but Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot' .

You didn't provide your source for your hundreds of millions of deaths in the name of God- if its true then secularists have done a bang up job of catching up in quick time.

Oh yeah and the cherry picking of morality from the bible.

Anyone can make superficial readings and quote one line scriptures out of context.  For each of the claims you made eg the Bible condones slavery, wife beating and persecution of homosexuals, there are numerous scholarly articles that refute that.

What do you mean- I've never said I know how the universe originated.

I find it funny that these religious types demand a way of thinking from before the dark ages, but equally want to enjoy the trappings of modern thinking - provided by the same scientists and scientific thinking they don’t believe on most issues. 

I find it equally funny these secularist types demand a way of their Godless way of thinking, but equally want to enjoy living in societies founded on religious principles, provided by the same ethics and laws they don't believe in all cases.

Realistically they should go and bunk in with the North Koreans and Venezualans.

Oh  BTW TSF, you really are incapable of any discourse without resorting to playing the man.  Time and time you do it.  Why do you even bother?

Can you name one country that is driven by religion that you'd like to model on, or is a success story? 

I can name many that have separation of government and religion or have completely turned their backs on religion and religious principles to go on to great things

of the current crop you have Afghanistan, Iran, Vatican City, Yemen, Saudi Arabia etc

Can you name one country that is driven by religion that you'd like to model on, or is a success story? 

I can name many that have separation of government and religion or have completely turned their backs on religion and religious principles to go on to great things

of the current crop you have Afghanistan, Iran, Vatican City, Yemen, Saudi Arabia etc

I find it equally funny these secularist types demand a way of their Godless way of thinking, but equally want to enjoy living in societies founded on religious principles, provided by the same ethics and laws they don't believe in all cases.

Realistically they should go and bunk in with the North Koreans and Venezualans.

I'll start with Australia.  Your home.  Despite being one of the most secular Western countries in the world, the majority are still religious  @ 61%.  In the UK  its 63%. France 72%. Germany 61%. US 70%.  Sweden 70%.  Denmark >72%.  Norway 75%. 

I could go on.

Depends on what you mean by "driven by".

What I can name is many successful countries where the majority of the population sees itself as religious

I'll start with Australia.  Your home.  Despite being one of the most secular Western countries in the world, the majority are still religious  @ 61%.  In the UK  its 63%. France 72%. Germany 61%. US 70%.  Sweden 70%.  Denmark >72%.  Norway 75%. 

I could go on.

Secularists are in the minority here, and in every successful modern country in the world, yet they feel its the opposite.  Worse they would- if they could- remove the freedom of religion in our Constitution.

I'll start with Australia.  Your home.  Despite being one of the most secular Western countries in the world, the majority are still religious  @ 61%.  In the UK  its 63%. France 72%. Germany 61%. US 70%.  Sweden 70%.  Denmark >72%.  Norway 75%. 

I could go on.

Depends on what you mean by "driven by".

What I can name is many successful countries where the majority of the population sees itself as religious

I'll start with Australia.  Your home.  Despite being one of the most secular Western countries in the world, the majority are still religious  @ 61%.  In the UK  its 63%. France 72%. Germany 61%. US 70%.  Sweden 70%.  Denmark >72%.  Norway 75%. 

I could go on.

Secularists are in the minority here, and in every successful modern country in the world, yet they feel its the opposite.  Worse they would- if they could- remove the freedom of religion in our Constitution.

And just to add, can you name one successful society that banned religion.

I am not advocating for a banning of religion. It serves a purpose.

Ok, so there is absolutely none in the world. Got it. 

As for those stats, as if 6/10 Aussies are 'religious'. Laughable. That's why churches across the country are empty. 

Also, various ethnic groups across the world, ones that have had zero communication with each other have shared principles - it really has bugger all to do with one person's religion giving everyone a doctrine. 

But can you name one nation that has and succeeded?  We had several last century, name ONE that succeeded.

What's laughable -the Australian Bureau of Statistics census?  That's raw data literally from the source, the people themselves. 

You're confusing attending Church with people being religious, like Muz equated the church and and Bible as one and the same.  They're not the same.  You can be religious and not attend Church,.  Its not compulsory./

And the majority of those ethnic groups are religious- nearly 85%!

I never equated them as the same. 

But common sense suggest, that if 6/10 Aussies played football, then football pitches would be busy on the weekends. 

A lot of people (if not most) identifying as 'religious' would be Muslim (regardless of religious popularities). Next, you'll be arguing we're a Muslim country then lol

I prefer data to whatever you mean by "common sense".

As for muslims, 3.2% ( of 25 million) is a lot but not "most".

They're the numbers.  Deal with it.

Oh so you are Mr Data now lol Also from that census nearly 1% of Aussies said they identify as Jedi - is that true now? So we have Jedis amongst us? 

Let's say 6/10 Aussies were religious. What does this even say? How is that a win?  That a mass excuse for a tax-dodging profiteering pedo ring somehow has still pulled the wool over the eyes of 6/10 people?

Ok, so there is absolutely none in the world. Got it. 

As for those stats, as if 6/10 Aussies are 'religious'. Laughable. That's why churches across the country are empty. 

Also, various ethnic groups across the world, ones that have had zero communication with each other have shared principles - it really has bugger all to do with one person's religion giving everyone a doctrine. 

Religion in the United States

• Protestantism (34%)
• Catholicism (23%)
• Non-specific Christian (11%)
• Mormonism (2%)
• Judaism (2%)
• Other religions (6%)
• Unaffiliated with organized forms of religion (21%)
• No answer (1%)

As the Yanks like to say "there are no atheists in a foxhole" they should know as they happily spread the word of God to all the "heathens" around the world.... 
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all,"