I like Christina Hoff Summers

It shits me that things like that are used by feminists to attack the patriarchy, like all women's body image issues are a result of a misogynistic society, or from trying to attract men, when in reality most of the pressures and judgements in this regard are coming from other women.

Like Karl Stefanovic being branded a feminist icon for 'making a statement' about sexism in the industry when he didn't change his suit for a year. No one noticed because generally men don't give a shit about other people's fashion and women aren't that interested in men's fashion either, I like Karl but that was just ridiculous.

You sexist. You probably don't even clam your legs shut on the train #manspreader

Man, I love reading people talk about things that they have no idea about. This shit seriously belongs on /r/iamverysmart

I agree. Your mangina copypasta is extremely entertaining.

I love these threads.

INB4 the KA lock.

Well feel free to enlighten me on what I've gotten so wrong rather than just chime in with your standard elitist response.

For the record I don't know much of TRP beside what Notor has shared here, and I don't browse reddit so if you could come up with an original response rather than a recycled generic insult/assumption I'd actually appreciate it.

Draups has repeatedly shown that he has zero interest in discussion and mutual understanding, and is quite happy to keep his head in the sand at throw baseless pejoratives at people on the behalf of women who don't respect him or will ever sleep with him anyway. I made an entire thread for him to ask questions and have an open dialogue, and all he ever bothered doing was posting quotes mined by omission of context (as he was exposed as doing, and did again in the past few days)

It's difficult to tell if his angst is based on actual views, femitardism as a sexual strategy or if he's just having fun trolling. He's a fun foil, whatever the case.

More gender shaming tactics after the tragic stabbing of a 17 year old girl in a park here in Melbourne.

A police officer has been hounded by the internet hate machine (tm) for suggesting that people should be careful and look after themselves.

Always up for exploiting some human tragedy in the name of manshaming, Adam Bandt posted on FB the exact same sentiments found in OP. Stop teaching women to protect themselves from the world, teach men to stop being violent.

This attack was committed by a violent psychopathic criminal. You're not going to change these people. There is this assumption that all men are like this and could potentially do it without realising that men are equally as outraged by her murder.

I think it's terribly hypocritical when these same left-wing politicians say "not all muslim's are terrorists" in defence of a right wing attack on that portion of the population. Both sides are playing to their bases and are alienating anyone that might look at this rationally.

And by perpetuating the sentiment that all men are potential rapists or murders has a few major effects on public discourse, including broadening the focus on criminals allowing actual violent people to hide more easily in plain sight.

Yep.

Of course this makes you a rape apologist, mcjules, so you'll do well to keep your mansplaining to yourself. Shitlord.

Whilst it's noble to want to change attitudes in the community that domestic disputes don't need to become violent, using this murder as a platform is not right. This is very different. This was caused by a violent criminal. These people are bad, very bad. They are not normal. You cannot change them. Condescendingly lumping all men with this scumbag is wrong.

These people exist. They are psychopaths and they don't care about you. It's not innappropriate to suggest people should not walk alone in the dark. Both men and women.

Gonna put this here, then step back and watch Notor go... For what it's worth I spent yesterday afternoon 'discussing' the content and tone of this article with a number of lovely young ladies on Facebook yesterday who made it very clear to me that I am a Neanderthal for suggesting that psychos are the issue rather than men, and is no more fair to suggest 'Men are the threat' due to a number of men being violent, than it is to say that 'Women are sluts' because a small number of them will do anything you want...

Here goes...

"Masa Vukotic murder: Travelling alone isn't women's biggest safety risk

On Tuesday evening at around 6:50pm, a man approached and stabbed to death Masa Vukotic while she was out walking in the Koonung Creek Linear Reserve. The 17- year-old Canturbury Secondary School student was found shortly after the attack at the base of a footbridge in the reserve. A man has since surrendered himself to police in connection with the murder.

But despite the fact that the fault for this alleged murder remains with the perpetrator alone, the tendency for public discussion to muse on the behaviour of victims has reared its ugly head once more. In an interview with ABC radio yesterday, Detective Inspector Mick Hughes advised people - "particularly females" - to avoid being alone in parks because of a need to "remain vigilant". Inspector Hughes later qualified this statement by claiming he meant for women (sorry, "females") to walk together, evidently as a means of safeguarding themselves against the violent actions of dangerous men. He said, "But if you're by yourself you need to be aware of your circumstances and take reasonable precautions. I think it's a travesty that we have to do that, we should be able to walk anywhere at any time, but reality says that we can't."

I would tell you how insulting it is to be reminded of what "reality" is by a male authority figure, but if you're a woman reading this then you're probably already pounding your head in frustration. The fact is, Vukotic walked this route regularly and Tuesday night was no different. Indeed, all over the country, women walk and run and cycle through parks and manage to emerge unscathed from the experience. Nor are the "reasonable precautions" Inspector Hughes refers to mysteries to us - they are the boring, unconsciously held ticks and twitches that underpin how we have learned to navigate our way through a world that considers our autonomy and rights as human beings to be an unnecessary afterthought.

Much as family recipes are passed down through generations, so too are the tools women have crafted to defend themselves in a hostile environment. We know how to carry our keys in such a way that they might function as a weapon while walking to our cars or front doors. We indulge in real or fake conversations on our phone in the hopes that the flimsy connection might ward off potential predators. Some of us smoke, having once heard that the sight of it reduces the projected impression of vulnerability.

Women do these things, and still we are attacked, beaten, raped. Murdered.

What further precautions must we take? Perhaps we could fuse girls together when they become old enough to venture outside by themselves, ensuring they're always 'in company' and thus never able to succumb to the stupidity of imagining they might be entitled to spend a single moment just existing without worrying about how others might respond to that. Maybe we should pass a law that says women can only travel outside the home when accompanied by a male relative. Would it make sense to just accept defeat from the outset, and ban women from leaving their homes altogether?

But then, that doesn't work either. Because for the majority of girls and women, the biggest risk to their safety lies inside these supposed sanctuaries. For these women, the protective shield of a four walled home with locks on its doors isn't a safe harbour for them but for their attackers. Does it matter less when it happens behind closed curtains, between people who have developed some kind of intimacy? Or does it just make it easier for the outside world to ignore it?

I think we all know the answer to that.

No, despite all this hand-wringing and concerned instruction, women are very well-versed in the things that pose a risk to our safety. Or rather, the one thing that poses the biggest risk.

Men.

This is the actual reality of the world that we live in, but apparently we're not allowed to talk about it because it's unfair and cruel and misandrist and mean. Don't we know that the MAJORITY of men are good and decent people? How DARE we besmirch their names and reputations by discussing the demonstrable, evidence supported problem of male violence and its protracted, deliberate impact on women!

Instead, we must behave as if these 'risks' are unknown and unconnected - as if it is parks or dark streets or alleyways themselves that are killing women, as if danger simply falls out of the sky and snuffs out their lives, like a cartoon anvil or a piano or a house brought down in a tornado to land on a witch trespassing on land that was never hers to begin with.

For too long, women have been sold the lie that the world does not really belong to us. That we are merely guests, here on the provisional invitation of men who expect us to behave ourselves, speak when we're spoken to and provide all the comforts and charm of a deferential dinner companion indebted somehow to the goodwill of the host. Our time as the docile, malleable maidens responsible for absorbing the impact of men's choices ends right now.

Because here's some "reality" for Inspector Hughes, and anyone inclined to agree with his advice, however well intentioned it might have been. Until we substantially address the toxicity of patriarchy, women will always be subjected to the aggression and hostility of men who are left to their own devices by a society unwilling to look at those patterns of male behaviour which lead to gendered violence. The repetition of history has demonstrated that if we want to decrease the risk of gendered violence used against women, we won't do it by continuing to challenge and police women's behaviour.

We can do it simply by changing men's. That's the reality. So let's get started."

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/masa-vukotic-murder-travelling-alone-isnt-womens-biggest-safety-risk-20150319-1m3fo9.html

If it's ok to say all of this - I assume it's also ok to say that all women are sluts because I've seen a few pornos; and all blacks are criminals because the prisons are full of them...

Yep just like how I condone people dieing from terrorism because I refuse to lump all Muslims into the same basket.

I actively try to avoid feeding trolls like Clementine Ford.

Clementine Ford is an oxygen thief. Hijacking this tragedy to push your agenda and offensive stereotyping is such a repulsive act. I bet Masa's grieving father, brother, and boyfriend would all be thrilled to see her lumping them in to the same basket as the guy that murdered her.

I don't get how any rational woman could think this is an issue for all men to look at. Like when I walk home alone from a bar at night I'm still looking over my shoulder every few minutes and get shit scared too, but I'm not stupid enough to think this is a problem all men equally need to accept responsibility for. It's just a reality that in big cities there are going to be some bad people, and walking alone at night increases your risk of crossing paths with them. Plus when it comes out that this guy has serious mental issues it absolutely has no relevance to gender relations IMO, he's just a really sick individual who clearly does not think or act like a normal human being.

Has the Masa Vukotic murder been confirmed as only happening because she was a girl? The guy had a knife, I'm sure a wide variety of males would just as easily have been considered a target. Do we even know why he randomly decided to murder someone there? Was there any motive at all? Did he steal anything from her?

There doesn't appear to be any motive which is why it's such a sickening crime. The guy is also accused of raping another woman before handing himself in, as well as mugging one man and assaulting another in an attempted carjacking. So in his little rampage he attacked four people, two women and two men.

I wonder if these people realise that many men are assaulted, robbed or murdered when waking on streets at night, and in none of those circumstances do people think it unreasonable for the authorities to recommend vigilance when walking alone in dark places.

"yeah, but they are assaulted by men! See men are still the problem!"

There will always be evil people in the world. No amount of "education" and "teaching men not to rape" will change this. There will always be men out there who rape and murder women. I'm sorry but that's the way it is.

What these retards don't understand is that because of this, women need to take measures to protect themselves. It's not misogynistic to suggest that women don't bear all their skin, and it's not "victim-blaming" to suggest that women need to take measures to protect themselves.

And the government refuses to let people defend themselves

You can defend yourself, just not with a gun lol.

-PB

This is an essay, so I imagine few of you will read it (probably only one, gleefully looking for the tiniest slip up I make to strawman fallacy my position)

Just a few points:

1) Feminism is a sub-school of egalitarianism, they aren't disparate. Feminism is egalitarianism with the acceptance that society is inequitable in gender. It is possible to be egalitarian without being feminist (you reject the notion of male privilege), but it is impossible to be feminist (properly feminist) without being egalitarian.

2) Man-hating "feminism" isn't truly feminism (but that doesn't mean it isn't rooted in feminism.) It is a minority group alienated by male attitudes towards women and, in particular, the idea of feminism. So it becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy when you perpetuate ideas such as those in here that feminism is the enemy.

3) There is circular logic in the "not all muslims" vs "not all men" logic (and a complete disassociation from the hypocrisy of ignoring "not all feminists" wrt man hating, but that's an aside). The flaw in the muslim vs men statement is that society at large started attacking Islam on the back of the few, whilst despite the protestations of insecure men feminism at large does not claim all men are women-hating rapists. On top of this, Muslims actively fight against those within their ranks who hold extremist views. It is far too acceptable for men to laugh and look the other way when other men objectify or "playfully" assault women. *That* is the point of the disagreement with not all men. Feminists say "we *know* that, but please accept that yes some men, and they do it with permission from society. Please help us fix that."

4) Yes there will always be unbalanced people, but addressing attitudes towards women (and people of colour, and lgbti identifying people) will contribute to *minimising* the instances of these people being victims. Not everyone who assaults or harms someone is just crazy, or evil, or not-normal. Sean Connery hit his wife. He did that because he wasn't raised to believe it was ok to do so if his wife was "a bitch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded", not because he is unbalanced. This point is why I, and the majority of other feminists, don't actually *hate* the majority of you who are recoiling against feminism when things like this come up. Your experiences and upbringing give you a different interpretation of society, you don't experience first hand what these people are talking about so it is difficult to empathise. Animosity only comes up when someone is belligerent and offensively aggressive, and I'm pretty sure we can find some good examples of that in here can't we.

5) The crux of this thread, the association of victim blaming with the response on women, is not due to the advice directed towards women to be safe. It's that this advice was the *only* message communicated. The emphasis was put on women to say "if you don't do this, you will be safe. You are responsible for your own protection". You are responsible. You. In the absence of addressing what we can do to minimise antisocial behaviour towards women (putting aside this case specifically, as the offender is unhinged and this may not have been a specific attack on her as a woman. The rape on the other hand...) this comes across as saying the victim is at fault for not adhering to every safety rule. Control the way you dress, don't go out at night (but don't stay in either- the majority of assaults happen at home!), don't talk to strangers (or people you know, because again, the majority of assailants are known to the victim), don't have autonomy, don't look too pretty (but smile, won't you?). When a man is stabbed in a park, do we tell men not to go into parks at night? Do we tell him not to wear shorts? Do we tell him to say he has a boyfriend who is a bodybuilder? Hyperbole on the last one, but that's where the distress at the comments regarding this assault has come from. Women *know* they need to protect themselves, but it's a bit shit to imply their assault is their own fault. It further harms the victim and implicitly excuses the attacker.

A lot of the animosity I see towards feminism comes from a feeling that it's not easy being a man, so this whole privilege this must be bullshit. Privilege doesn't mean life is easy, just that it isn't quite as hard.

I don't know any man who thinks like that to be honest, I think the animosity just comes from being pissed off at the man hating element of feminism that seems to dominate social media, that's my reason personally. I also get frustrated at the victim complex most of the prominent feminist writers are encouraging these days, with sites like mamamia screaming misogyny at harmless comments or song lyrics for example.

Basically my objection is that in modern society the first two points of your post have pretty much become the norm on social media with "writers" like Clem Ford perpetuating outrageous and offensive stereotypes as an accepted norm; egalitarianism is a rare thing in the feminist articles that make their way onto my newsfeed.

Well said.

-PB

Good post Scoll. Too many talking points in there so just a one thing
I was very careful to not say all feminists. I was referring specifically to the hypocrisy of politicians like Adam Bandt. I consider myself to be a feminist and I cringe at the language that is used. It's no where near as moderate as what you've expressed in your post. As I also said, they're playing to their base

Edited by mcjules: 21/3/2015 05:12:04 PM