Unshackled
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BETHFC wrote:
Another problem we have though is there are no avenues to turn these people into working tax paying citizens. In Virginia Brisbane, I did a job on a residential site where refugees were given a unit and left to their own devices. Piss poor management these guys could be working.
Idealistically this sounds fantastic, but unless you can invent large numbers of jobs out of thin air this work will be at the expense of locals. Locals who actually have to pay rent or mortgages on their units. I suppose the argument will get tossed out that they can do the jobs Australians won't do like fruit picking. How long do you think it will be before the migrant picking for peanuts will realise that he/she is better off on our generous welfare system like the locals do.
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GDeathe
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AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:JP wrote:BETHFC wrote:I don't see the point in having extremely expensive offshore detention centres when, if we have to detain these people to do necessary checks, we could do so in facilities in major cities which would be cheaper.
I also cannot understand how these people are detained for so long. Keeping them alive for 18 months + is a joke. How does it take so long to process these people? Instead of spending money feeding them, spend it on staffing. It will also make the detainees less likely to become frustrated/angry which is better for everyone. I assumed you'd be very much in support of offshore detention but I agree with your post. It's a broken system and there isn't an easy answer. We need to discourage people from hopping on the boats in the first place but we also need to be humane. The current system is ridiculous. Sadly this has become a politcal issue . Which it shouldn't be at all. This is now about getting votes. Just like how abortion is a politcal issue in the us . It's also a legal one. Not that I know any facts/statistics but there are reports that some boat people are not genuinely seeking asylum but rather trying to enter the country illegally. I'm sure you can imagine that anti-immigration groups are very quick to highlight this issue. The logic of the whole system is that it is intended to be cruel. The reason they do it offshore is so they can tell asylum seekers arriving by boat that even if they are successful in their application for refugee status, they will never live in Australia. It's this cruelty and arbitrary treatment of people arriving specifically by boat, that underpins the whole policy of stopping arrivals by boat. That is why arguments over humane treatment will never work, because the whole point of it is to be cruel. By the way - I am not in favour of the current arrangements. I am just stating the underlying logic behind it. The problem with coming up with arrangements with other countries is two-fold. As McJules mentioned, the constitutional issues are the first stumbling block. Secondly, the requirement to get the other country to agree is the issue. They will obviously use any negotiation to get something out of us in exchange for doing a deal. The rhetoric is always directed at those organising the boats and yet its the desperate people coming by boat that cop it. We have an aging population, these people could help that issue if we put money into making them productive citizens instead of treating them like the worst kind of criminals. Precisely. The problem is that there is just now such a knee-jerk irrational fear of boat arrivals (compared to arrivals by other means). Admittedly, the current policy is effective. But it is expensive and cruel. Both sides of politics talk about the need for a "regional solution", but it never happens. Its such a toxic political issue, that these days I think that the best case solution is that the boat arrivals remain stopped and the remaining people have their claims resolved, and the camps close down due to no further boat arrivals happening. Edited by AzzaMarch: 3/2/2016 02:33:17 PM what is more cruel... locking people up for 18+ months or doing nothing while people drown in the ocean? I know which one I'd choose Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:00:58 PM
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Eastern Glory
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GDeathe wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:JP wrote:BETHFC wrote:I don't see the point in having extremely expensive offshore detention centres when, if we have to detain these people to do necessary checks, we could do so in facilities in major cities which would be cheaper.
I also cannot understand how these people are detained for so long. Keeping them alive for 18 months + is a joke. How does it take so long to process these people? Instead of spending money feeding them, spend it on staffing. It will also make the detainees less likely to become frustrated/angry which is better for everyone. I assumed you'd be very much in support of offshore detention but I agree with your post. It's a broken system and there isn't an easy answer. We need to discourage people from hopping on the boats in the first place but we also need to be humane. The current system is ridiculous. Sadly this has become a politcal issue . Which it shouldn't be at all. This is now about getting votes. Just like how abortion is a politcal issue in the us . It's also a legal one. Not that I know any facts/statistics but there are reports that some boat people are not genuinely seeking asylum but rather trying to enter the country illegally. I'm sure you can imagine that anti-immigration groups are very quick to highlight this issue. The logic of the whole system is that it is intended to be cruel. The reason they do it offshore is so they can tell asylum seekers arriving by boat that even if they are successful in their application for refugee status, they will never live in Australia. It's this cruelty and arbitrary treatment of people arriving specifically by boat, that underpins the whole policy of stopping arrivals by boat. That is why arguments over humane treatment will never work, because the whole point of it is to be cruel. By the way - I am not in favour of the current arrangements. I am just stating the underlying logic behind it. The problem with coming up with arrangements with other countries is two-fold. As McJules mentioned, the constitutional issues are the first stumbling block. Secondly, the requirement to get the other country to agree is the issue. They will obviously use any negotiation to get something out of us in exchange for doing a deal. The rhetoric is always directed at those organising the boats and yet its the desperate people coming by boat that cop it. We have an aging population, these people could help that issue if we put money into making them productive citizens instead of treating them like the worst kind of criminals. Precisely. The problem is that there is just now such a knee-jerk irrational fear of boat arrivals (compared to arrivals by other means). Admittedly, the current policy is effective. But it is expensive and cruel. Both sides of politics talk about the need for a "regional solution", but it never happens. Its such a toxic political issue, that these days I think that the best case solution is that the boat arrivals remain stopped and the remaining people have their claims resolved, and the camps close down due to no further boat arrivals happening. Edited by AzzaMarch: 3/2/2016 02:33:17 PM what is more cruel... locking people up for 18+ months or doing nothing while people drown in the ocean? I know which one I'd choose Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:00:58 PM But those two things aren't mutually exclusive :lol: That's like asking would you rather die by shark bite or have wooden floor boards in your grandma's house? They're not fucking relevant to each other at all.
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GDeathe
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Eastern Glory wrote:GDeathe wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:AzzaMarch wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:JP wrote:BETHFC wrote:I don't see the point in having extremely expensive offshore detention centres when, if we have to detain these people to do necessary checks, we could do so in facilities in major cities which would be cheaper.
I also cannot understand how these people are detained for so long. Keeping them alive for 18 months + is a joke. How does it take so long to process these people? Instead of spending money feeding them, spend it on staffing. It will also make the detainees less likely to become frustrated/angry which is better for everyone. I assumed you'd be very much in support of offshore detention but I agree with your post. It's a broken system and there isn't an easy answer. We need to discourage people from hopping on the boats in the first place but we also need to be humane. The current system is ridiculous. Sadly this has become a politcal issue . Which it shouldn't be at all. This is now about getting votes. Just like how abortion is a politcal issue in the us . It's also a legal one. Not that I know any facts/statistics but there are reports that some boat people are not genuinely seeking asylum but rather trying to enter the country illegally. I'm sure you can imagine that anti-immigration groups are very quick to highlight this issue. The logic of the whole system is that it is intended to be cruel. The reason they do it offshore is so they can tell asylum seekers arriving by boat that even if they are successful in their application for refugee status, they will never live in Australia. It's this cruelty and arbitrary treatment of people arriving specifically by boat, that underpins the whole policy of stopping arrivals by boat. That is why arguments over humane treatment will never work, because the whole point of it is to be cruel. By the way - I am not in favour of the current arrangements. I am just stating the underlying logic behind it. The problem with coming up with arrangements with other countries is two-fold. As McJules mentioned, the constitutional issues are the first stumbling block. Secondly, the requirement to get the other country to agree is the issue. They will obviously use any negotiation to get something out of us in exchange for doing a deal. The rhetoric is always directed at those organising the boats and yet its the desperate people coming by boat that cop it. We have an aging population, these people could help that issue if we put money into making them productive citizens instead of treating them like the worst kind of criminals. Precisely. The problem is that there is just now such a knee-jerk irrational fear of boat arrivals (compared to arrivals by other means). Admittedly, the current policy is effective. But it is expensive and cruel. Both sides of politics talk about the need for a "regional solution", but it never happens. Its such a toxic political issue, that these days I think that the best case solution is that the boat arrivals remain stopped and the remaining people have their claims resolved, and the camps close down due to no further boat arrivals happening. Edited by AzzaMarch: 3/2/2016 02:33:17 PM what is more cruel... locking people up for 18+ months or doing nothing while people drown in the ocean? I know which one I'd choose Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:00:58 PM But those two things aren't mutually exclusive :lol: That's like asking would you rather die by shark bite or have wooden floor boards in your grandma's house? They're not fucking relevant to each other at all. please compare the stats over the past 2 years with the people who have drowned crossing to Australia with Greece or Italy  Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:17:25 PM
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Carlito
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Im sorry but when you use that pic to prove a point shows how much of a dick you are. Low blow and its a complete disregard of the boy who drowned. Remove it now
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BETHFC
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I concur. That photo might only represent one of many deaths, but it hits the hardest. Feel uncomfortable about looking at it? You should I feel.
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Carlito
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I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics
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BETHFC
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics If you're using suffering to prove a point it's a bloody low act.
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mcjules
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BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics If you're using suffering to prove a point it's a bloody low act. GDeathe is seriously one of the worst posters around. Disappears for extended periods of time only to come in and post a barrage of shit that's usually shot down immediately.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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BETHFC
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mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics If you're using suffering to prove a point it's a bloody low act. GDeathe is seriously one of the worst posters around. Disappears for extended periods of time only to come in and post a barrage of shit that's usually shot down immediately. To put it another way though the image serves its purpose. It shows us one of the results of shit immigration policies around the world, of which ours is one of the cruellest.
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SocaWho
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Back on topic...governments need to use the migration of Syrians as a case study.
Immigration is a good thing but only if there is the jobs and the support system to allow it.
the 1 million or so refugees just being plonked in the middle of Germany is an absolute disaster and Cologne only highlights this. Its also a give and take thing as well...you cant have a situation where hordes of unemployed men are running rampant in towns...regardless of race...its never going to end well.
I think in relation to Nauru it might be a bit different since its women and children as well....it ls somewhat cruel...but its a different situation
Edited by Socawho: 4/2/2016 11:16:14 AM
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Carlito
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BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics If you're using suffering to prove a point it's a bloody low act. GDeathe is seriously one of the worst posters around. Disappears for extended periods of time only to come in and post a barrage of shit that's usually shot down immediately. To put it another way though the image serves its purpose. It shows us one of the results of shit immigration policies around the world, of which ours is one of the cruellest. I concur. Instead of politisizing it , we as a people should be trying our best to find a proper and humane system that makes everyone comfortable. Being cruel to those that are the most desperate shows how we have no morals or empathy. It just shows us being cruel and sadistic
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u4486662
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics If you're using suffering to prove a point it's a bloody low act. GDeathe is seriously one of the worst posters around. Disappears for extended periods of time only to come in and post a barrage of shit that's usually shot down immediately. To put it another way though the image serves its purpose. It shows us one of the results of shit immigration policies around the world, of which ours is one of the cruellest. I concur. Instead of politisizing it , we as a people should be trying our best to find a proper and humane system that makes everyone comfortable. Being cruel to those that are the most desperate shows how we have no morals or empathy. It just shows us being cruel and sadistic Every issue is about politics. There are solutions to problems and those solutions and people's opinions about those solutions differ. Thats politics. There is no such thing as an issue that isn't politicized. The worst thing we can do about an issue is stick our fingers in our ears and ignore someone else's opinion about something just because it makes us uncomfortable. Solutions differ in their morality, cost, political philosophy and effectiveness. All of these have consequences and knock-on effects.
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BETHFC
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u4486662 wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:I have shudders looking at it. And as a parent i feel worse. But to use that photo is vindictive and both sides of politics need not to resort to low blow tactics If you're using suffering to prove a point it's a bloody low act. GDeathe is seriously one of the worst posters around. Disappears for extended periods of time only to come in and post a barrage of shit that's usually shot down immediately. To put it another way though the image serves its purpose. It shows us one of the results of shit immigration policies around the world, of which ours is one of the cruellest. I concur. Instead of politisizing it , we as a people should be trying our best to find a proper and humane system that makes everyone comfortable. Being cruel to those that are the most desperate shows how we have no morals or empathy. It just shows us being cruel and sadistic Every issue is about politics. There are solutions to problems and those solutions and people's opinions about those solutions differ. Thats politics. There is no such thing as an issue that isn't politicized. The worst thing we can do about an issue is stick our fingers in our ears and ignore someone else's opinion about something just because it makes us uncomfortable. Solutions differ in their morality, cost, political philosophy and effectiveness. All of these have consequences and knock-on effects. No issues with what you're saying but we have one of the most expensive and most immoral solutions. We couldn't get it more wrong without shooting these people out of the water.
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u4486662
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If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal
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mcjules
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u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal I gave one earlier in the thread... ;)
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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BETHFC
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u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures?
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mcjules
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BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? The point is they don't want to process them.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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u4486662
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mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? The point is they don't want to process them. all fair points.
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BETHFC
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mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? The point is they don't want to process them. Which is absolutely ridiculous. We need new tax payers to pay their salary4lyf. How the hell do we keep electing these morons? THIS IS WHY I DONKEY VOTE AND WRITE C*NT NEXT TO EVERY NAME :lol:
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mcjules
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BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? The point is they don't want to process them. Which is absolutely ridiculous. We need new tax payers to pay their salary4lyf. How the hell do we keep electing these morons? THIS IS WHY I DONKEY VOTE AND WRITE C*NT NEXT TO EVERY NAME :lol: Those in support of these policies don't care as long as they don't end up here. The only thing the government is working on is finding another country to take them, until that happens they're stuck there.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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433
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BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in.
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Carlito
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433 wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in. Its funny that you think otherwise.
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BETHFC
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433 wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in. We're in control of whether they enter our country as citizens or whether they rot in prison becoming dissociated with society and developing resentment towards this country.
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BETHFC
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mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? The point is they don't want to process them. Which is absolutely ridiculous. We need new tax payers to pay their salary4lyf. How the hell do we keep electing these morons? THIS IS WHY I DONKEY VOTE AND WRITE C*NT NEXT TO EVERY NAME :lol: Those in support of these policies don't care as long as they don't end up here. The only thing the government is working on is finding another country to take them, until that happens they're stuck there. Of course, but these countries generally want something from us in return......
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mcjules
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BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:mcjules wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? The point is they don't want to process them. Which is absolutely ridiculous. We need new tax payers to pay their salary4lyf. How the hell do we keep electing these morons? THIS IS WHY I DONKEY VOTE AND WRITE C*NT NEXT TO EVERY NAME :lol: Those in support of these policies don't care as long as they don't end up here. The only thing the government is working on is finding another country to take them, until that happens they're stuck there. Of course, but these countries generally want something from us in return...... I know, you only have to look at what happened with Cambodia.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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433
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:433 wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in. Its funny that you think otherwise. Yes, tell me how it's feasible that Germany can successfully process 10000 people per day :roll: :lol: Didn't Cologne and Paris teach you anything?
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433
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BETHFC wrote:433 wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in. We're in control of whether they enter our country as citizens or whether they rot in prison becoming dissociated with society and developing resentment towards this country. In that case why would they choose to come here?
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Carlito
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433 wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:433 wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in. Its funny that you think otherwise. Yes, tell me how it's feasible that Germany can successfully process 10000 people per day :roll: :lol: Didn't Cologne and Paris teach you anything? Germany succesfully processed plenty of bosnian refugees and serbians . But nah you're right i know nothing
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433
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:433 wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:433 wrote:BETHFC wrote:u4486662 wrote:If someone can find a more cost effective and humane way to deal with the issue then:
A) I want to hear their opinion
B) They should get a medal 1) offshore detention is stupidly expensive, detain them on the mainland 2) this 18 month process nonsense is ridiculous. If Germany/rest of Europe can process them in weeks, wtf is wrong with our processing procedures? It's funny that you think that the Europeans have control of the people coming in. Its funny that you think otherwise. Yes, tell me how it's feasible that Germany can successfully process 10000 people per day :roll: :lol: Didn't Cologne and Paris teach you anything? Germany succesfully processed plenty of bosnian refugees and serbians . But nah you're right i know nothing :lol: :lol: :lol: Please read what I posted again, instead of using a decades-old event in the unprecedented modern context.
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