In the instance where Olympia and South Hobart both played in a national 2nd division or connect professional system, would a stadium share be possible?

With say support from state and federal gov and Tasmanian FA. Im talking something like 4000 capacity minimalistic

Someone abit more privy would be better to ask, TassieMad or Decentric, but I would assume it would be the most sensible option.

Not sure if they could fit much into the KGV facility.

Interesting to note aswell that South Hobart got granted money in the recent budget for temp. Grand stand seating. I'll have to search for the link for the exact amount but I vaguely remember it between 10 -15000$. No clue as to how much that would get them.

Not too much but its better than a kick up the butt.

Not sure if this has been answered already, but if this is to go ahead will the clubs taking part still all be semi-pro or amateur? Is there money somewhere to make them all pro? I can understand if pro/rel was taking place private money could be found to fund a club with the aim of taking them to the A-League, if not it risks being a rebranded npl with limited improvement in quality or fans but increased costs for travel. I'm all for a 2nd division, being in Canberra I'd love a Capital team on the national stage, but really would like to see a 2nd division done really well

They have their meeting on the 15th. It will most likely be 2 conferences, although I hope not. 

20-24 teams have stated they want to enter iirc, so it will be better than having 91 NPL teams as a second division. 

The first thing is to set it up, improvement can come with time. 

Nothing confirmed yet but I'm strongly guessing there will be some clear minimum requirements regarding the number of professional players, operating structure, stadia, etc.
For example, I imagine there will be a rule that each club that participates must have a minimum of say 5 players of professional status (i.e - contracted to the club and paid enough of a wage that football can be their full-time profession). If we're going with sixteen teams in a second division, that would mean that there would be at least 80 full-time players in the second division. And if we're going bigger than that (such as the conference approach), there would be something like 120+ full-timers. So clubs would start as semi-pro and eventually move into full-time professionalism over time.

I am hoping stadium requirement is extremely low. It may happen with Morton as a board member. I dont think she will push for her own club to be excluded or move their home matches. There wont be any connection upward for several years, this gives teams time to reach potential agreed upon targets without the need for them today. 

Hamilton chairman Christo Patsan is representing Northern NSW clubs as well as serving as treasurer on the Association of Australian Football Clubs.The AAFC board was formed on Monday night in an annual general meeting held via a nationwide teleconference. The board is made up of representatives from NPL clubs from the eight state federations.
Patsan, who was in Perth for the meeting, said the AAFC would represent NPL clubs and work to redefine their roles and create a more sustainable model with less burden on volunteers.

Patsan on executive of new NPL group | Newcastle Herald

Nick Di Giovanni.

He is the CEO at Tilford Motors. They are an Italian based club.

They've brought Zelco Kalac over to play a game for Zebras.

George Mamacas the Olympia president has deep pockets and would love his team to be on a bigger stage.

Both splash cash out on players. Both clubs need to do more in terms of developing  their own players.

It's great to see the pressure building and it's inevitable that we end up with a second tier eventually. 

I just hope it's not split into conferences, and also not closed off to clubs outside the competition.  If there are 20+ clubs interested, you can assume that not all of them would meet minimum criteria from the outset.  So set up a single league with the top 12, 14 or 16 (pick your number) but leave it open to all other clubs via promotion and relegation.

Would love Tasmanian teams in the second division, and South Hobart certainly have the best youth development in the state and have a team strong enough to compete with mainland NPL clubs. I just hope that travel costs aren't to prohibitive, flying a full squad and addons out every 2nd week. 

In terms of seating, Darcy Street I think is not sufficient if they're serious about pulling a crowd. Playing at KGV is also not ideal due to the artificial surface, so short of a new stadium, there isn't really a fantastic option aside often bringing in temporary stands. 

South Hobart's junior/ youth development outside the exponsive Morton's Soccer School is nebulous.

Parents have to pay quite a lot of money for the soccer school.

There is an arrangement where South pay Morton nothing for coaching the senior NPL team. This is in return for him to run his soccer school under the jurisdiction of the club. It generates a good income for him.

Yes, good to see pressure building from the rank and file.

Conferences can save money, based on the USA basketball model.

Hypothetically there may be two groups of 8 each in a south and north conference. 

North Conference plays 7 home and away games against the other 7 clubs.

South Conference plays home and away games against the other 7 clubs over the same period.

Every eighth week  1st on the ladder in North and South Conference play each other. 2nd North plays second South, 3rd North plays 3rd South and so on down to 8th on the ladder.

ACT, NSW, NT and Q'land may be in North Conference.

Vic, Tas, SA and WA might be in South Conference.






Another model might be for four Conferences.

West - WA (1 team) and SA (3 teams).

South - Vic (3) and Tas (1).

East - ACT (1) and NSW (3).

North - Q'land (3) and NT (1).


Every 4th week each conference plays one of the other, alternating each time and playing the team in the same position on the ladder from one of the three other conferences.

I'd rather see a national second division with the vision to set up a third tier which can be conferenced and finally the NPL's all linked together.

I have no issues with a conference setup to start with. 

In my opinion its a logical, build from the ground up approach.

Needs to be open to any club that can meet basic criteria with no relegation but every club has to meet certain criteria at checkpoints along the way otherwise they can get relegated. We want these conferences to be the marker that divides our professional setup from our amatuer one.

Season one, clubs have to have A,B and C checked off in regards to administation and inrastructure but by Season 5 they have to have X,Y and Z aswell - which should include plans to have a grandstand/s with a set minimum capacity.

In a clubs first season we might have a minimum of 5 professional players but by season ten(example only) 10 is the minimum number of professionals. Marquees rules be the same as HAL but aren't included in the professional player quota.

Once there are enough teams in the conferences to break away and form a fully national division that sits above the conferences we do so.

I would also like a criteria set for a set amount of scholarship youth players per club. 1-2 players per age group could be an easy point to start with a scale to increase that number over a set amount of time.

@bigpop

I am going to assume the majority of teams that want to enter come from Sydney and Melbourne. It may be 2/3 or close.

Is having a Sydney league plus some Qld teams and a Melbourne league plus the rest the best option?

Fans will be interested in the Sydney v Melbourne games the most. It may also be better for clubs in terms of gaining sponsorships and selling tickets. It should generate more views and more popularity. It should also generate more hype in media. Already now we are seeing more and more article in Melbourne especially about non ALeague football.

I really don't understand why people are so accepting of a conferenced system.  As far as I can tell there are only a couple of benefits that you get that you don't get from a fully national second division:

- Lower travel costs per team (not overall, as you have more clubs in two conferences than you would in one travelling around the country).
- More clubs involved in the second division - promotion and relegation with the NPL underneath would achieve essentially the same thing. Not to mention there are some serious drawbacks to including too many clubs (see below).
- It's better than we have now - if all other options fail, I'd be all for a conferenced league.  But as a first option, it's a poor choice.

Downsides of a conference league:
- Spreads the best players over more clubs = lowers the quality
- Best clubs won't be playing against the best - any possible split you come up with for Conferences will have NSW and VIC separated.
- Creates division when we're aiming for unity
- Lowers the overall professionalism of the league because you'd have to lower the minimum criteria to have enough clubs.
- Benefits some clubs more than others (those from Sydney) - e.g. NSW clubs would only have to travel interstate a few times.  Brisbane (or Adelaide or Perth) clubs still have to travel around the same number of times they would in a fully national league.  And now they're not even playing the best in the country (in the second tier).


I'm all for a second division split into two conferences, but only as a Plan B if Plan A is proven to be unviable (which I don't believe it will be).  I want to see us set the bar as high as possible.

Good, valid points.

In truth, a conference system is not really feasible in Australia, when Australia's fourth largest city is actually the most isolated city in the world.

What people are really wanting to say, but don't want to say it outright, is that if it comes down to saving money, the most logical structure is to have Sydney, Melbourne, and other towns and cities in-between in the one single conference.

^This.
The clubs and federations that are most vocal about creating a second division are coming from NSW (specifically Sydney), VIC (specifically Melbourne) and QLD (specifically the southeast part of the state), so it makes sense to start with those places and then open it up from there.
I'd be happy with something like this:
> Blacktown City
> APIA Leichhardt
> Sydney United
> Manly United
> Sutherland Sharks
> Marconi Stallions
> Wollongong Wolves
> South Melbourne
> Heidelberg United
> Bentleigh Greens
> Green Gully
> Hume City
> Melbourne Knights
> Bulleen Lions
> Brisbane Strikers
> Brisbane City

That's 16 existing teams from the three biggest cities, all playing together in a single national league using a simple round robin system of 30 rounds. Have it run from May to December (thereby avoiding much of the A-League season) and ensuring it's roughly alligned with the NPL so that the last-placed team can be relegated to their relevant NPL State League and replaced with the NPL Champion decided by the national playoffs as we already see in the current NPL format.

And if we want to go bigger than 16 teams, there's always more options to be found in the other major cities that can join if they are viable:
> Adelaide City
> West Adelaide
> South Hobart
> Hobart Zebras
> Gold Coast City
> Sunshine Coast Fire
> Northern Fury
> Perth SC

...and more that I'm sure I've forgotten about off the top of my head.

@scott @aussieshorter @holdingbidfielder

Don't get me wrong a fully national second division is the ideal situation, I just don't see the conference idea as bad as others do - especially in the beginning.

Look at it as the 'transitional' league in your Pecking Order model @aussieshorter.

It's a step in the right direction and a good situation for clubs to test the waters and find their level on the pyramid.
Few years down the track when a few clubs start to dominate, get close to fully professional squads, quality infrastucture and more clubs join the conferences it'll be easy to promote the top 5 or 6 from each conference to form a fully national division between the HAL and these conferences.

You are going to struggle with pro/rel down as not every club is going to want to go national or even semi-national(lets remember its rumoured only 20-24 are interested at this stage) and I don't think its fair to exclude any of the interested parties in the beginning especially because one is based in a certain city/state and the other is not(where have I heard that before?)
If you then go onto exclude clubs initially based on infrastucture/spectator facilities, (if we are talking grandstands of certain capacities,etc) you aren't going to get the best clubs then are you? Could you include a Bentleigh or a Blacktown City?
We can't force clubs to overreach. This needs to grow organically, we can't force smaller clubs, etc to jump to the level of South Melbourne over night when there has never been previous encouragement. 

That though, is why as I suggested in my previous post that interested clubs meet ABC criteria at the foundation of the comp and XYZ after a set period of time. Same goes for clubs wanting to join later down the track. 

As for the issue of travel and the cost of it, like aussieshorter said, it may not lower the total cost of travel but it will lower it for individual teams but to be honest in my opinion that is the whole point. In a country as big as ours, a club from Perth is going to understand the circumstances entering into any competition outside of their state league, its something that can't be changed, its going to cost them no matter the shape of the division. If a conference setup can lessen the financial side of things for smaller clubs whether they are city based or regional then I'm all for it.

I say this with my Tasmanian/regional person hat on but for me this is as much about creating pathways and growing the national footprint of football at a professional/elite level than it is condensing talent pools and interstate derbies. From my perspective, the fact that as my own son gets older and if he is good enough, with Devonport rumoured to be showing interest in joining, the fact he'll have a pathway only an hour down the highway as opposed to Hobart or interstate has a huge effect. I'm sure I'm not the only regional person with the same thoughts either.

I disagree with the whole notion of 'we are unique' that gets put out by the FFA but I will say that we are unique in the sense that we have to build a football pyramid from the ground up, and thats not just in divisions but facilities and finances aswell.

I didn't intend to put as much effort into this post as its only my opinion and persepctive because I eagerly await the 15th July and it will more than likely be all moot.

Just to finish here is another way to create those big derbies.

2 conferences of 12 teams = 22 rounds per conference
Ladder resets. 
Bottom 6 of each conference play their own conference one more time for 5 extra games(27rounds)
Whilst the top 6 of conference A play the top 6 of conference B for an added 6 games - 3home/3 away(28rounds)
Top of the interconference table after the ladder is reset are the champions
Qualifying for the inter conference rounds and the reward of playing the bigger clubs can serve as a carrot initially in the place of winning promotion. 

Seems like WA is the problem here. If Perth wants team or 2 why not just let them pay a bit more for travel costs.

Yes the size of our country as well as the fact that their are 20-24 interested clubs, all with varying on and off field standards. Who do you exclude and for what reasons?

Perth because they are too far away?
Tasmania, SA and ACT clubs because their not as big as NSW, Victoria and Queensland clubs?
Exclude Bentleigh over Melbourne Knights based on facilities? Likewise Blacktown City and Marconi?

I think we need to separate Perth from WA. 

Second-tier national football league not just a pipedream, insists AAFC chairman Rabieh Krayem

A NATIONAL second division in place for the 2018-19 soccer season is both “viable” and “realistic” according to one of the men charged with seeing it come to fruition.

Former North Queensland Fury boss Rabieh Krayem was this week announced as the chairman of the Association of Australian Football Clubs — an organisation representing more than 110 second tier clubs across the country.

The AAFC’s eight-person board will meet for the first time next weekend, with its No. 1 priority to establish the framework for a nationwide second tier competition that could kick off in as little as 15 months time.

“It is realistic, this is not a pipedream,” Krayem told the Herald Sun.


New Association of Australian Football Clubs chairman Rabieh Krayem..
“We still think a viable timeline is the 2018-19 season.

“Obviously there’s a lot of work to go through, but a lot of work has been already done behind the scenes by a lot of people.”

Sitting a tier below the A-League, the national second division would not immediately lead to a promotion and relegation system being implemented, but Krayem said that topic would form part of conversations with Football Federation Australia, A-League clubs and the players association.

As many as 20 clubs from across the country will be represented in the second division, with National Premier League teams to be asked to put forward expressions of interest.

The second division conversation is running parallel with the A-League’s current expansion debate.


Teams like Brisbane Strikers have a long history in Australian football.
But while potential new entities from places such as south-east Melbourne, Geelong, Southern Sydney and Tasmania are bidding for an A-League licence, Krayem suggested a national second division would initially be for established clubs.

“You’ve got to look at this as what is in the best interests of our game,” Krayem said.

“There are existing clubs who have already indicated they are very keen to participate in the second tier competition.

“I think the strength of football is its tradition and its clubs. Manufacturing clubs can take a long time to work.

“You’ve got clubs with history — whether it be Brisbane City, Brisbane Strikers, Sydney Olympic, Sydney United, Melbourne Knights, South Melbourne, Adelaide City — you go through each state and there are clubs that have been around for a long, long time.

“We can’t forget where football started. We need to learn from the past and make the right progress for the future.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/football/secondtier-national-football-league-not-just-a-pipedream-insists-aafc-chairman-rabieh-krayem/news-story/606d6e18766914be80753d91b8d3eef5

Strikers will be 25 years old in 2019 - it would be fitting if they were actually back in the top flight then

Hopefull it means more football that is accessible to a wider audience. Good to see the major goal is the growth of the game.

I don't know about 20 teams

I hope they keep it to 12 to be honest to condense the talent. Make it a 33 round season and gradually expand

Eithe way the most important thing is to make it so that the players and coaches are full time

I would agree to 12 but give me a fair formula that not only gives entry to teams that have performed over the last few years in NPL but also ranks each NPL to allocate spots.

Picking teams by their name or location is not fair.

No. Nothing wrong with 20 teams as a semi pro/pro second tier. Would be huge.

What are you talking about condensing talent for? It's a second tier. 

Second Division Dream alive, but questions over finance, structure still to be answered

A second tier in the A-League could ultimately help develop Australian talent like Tim Cahill by giving younger talent a ...
A second tier in the A-League could ultimately help develop Australian talent like Tim Cahill by giving younger talent a chance to flourish. Photo: Daniel Pockett
Few people disagree that there is a need for an A-League second division.

It would help develop talent and give younger players the chance to prove themselves in a professional, or semi-professional environment.

Advertisement
Competition and supporter interest would intensify (especially when promotion and relegation is finally introduced).

Ultimately the national team would gain too, as it is likely the second tier would hothouse younger players and they would improve far quicker than they do in the current environment, in which opportunities to play at the top level are limited.

The lack of expansion and growth in the top tier – the A-League – is a road block for many talented younger players.

There are only 10 A-League clubs, each of which has five visa spots for foreigners, meaning a typical 23-man squad has only 18 places for locals – 180 full-time professional positions at best for male players to earn a full-time living at the game.

The newly formed Australian Association of Professional Clubs, the main champion of the idea, has been long on elaborating their vision, but short on producing the detail of how their hopes could be achieved.

How such a league would be financed, structured, marketed and operated has yet to be explained.

Critics have seized on the lack of detail to suggest that whatever claims are made for a second division, all it will be is a replication of the old NSL which in the end foundered under a lack of capital and poor governance structures.

Rabiah Krayem, who in a previous life was a senior executive with the North Queensland Fury, the former A-League club, and the NRL expansion franchise North Queensland Cowboys, both based in Townsville, was this week elected as chairman of the AAPC.

A new board of directors was also elected, and the group will, he says, meet in Brisbane next weekend to start putting some flesh on the bones of its strategy to get an NPL Division Two up and running to co-incide with the planned expansion of the A-League to 12 clubs in the 2018-19 season.

Krayem says that meeting will discuss the sort of financial structure any clubs will need to have in place to be part of Division 2, what way a second tier would be established and what the other criteria required to apply for a spot in the mooted competition will be.

The PFA, the players union, recently published a study which argued that to be a viable franchise with women's and youth teams a second-tier club should have an operating budget of $5.5 million.

Krayem and his colleagues say that while that is an idealistic target, it is not feasible, nor necessary, for what they have in mind, at least at the start.

"This is not the A-League, we don't want to compete with the A-League or replace it and we won't have the same cost structures. We will work with the state federations and the PFA to try to develop criteria for the new clubs, but we don't feel that $5.5 million figure is realistic or necessary.

"We want to complement the A-League, widen the professional and semi-professional base of the game and eventually have a pyramid structure where clubs win promotion on merit – and teams get relegated for failing to perform. "
So how much will clubs need to have?

Krayem argues that as so many existing clubs already have coaches, staff, grounds and infrastructure those costs will not be an addition to an increased wages bill.

Many teams in the various state NPLs now spend $500,000 to $1 million, and while that will have to increase considerably it will not be anywhere near the total cost $5.5 million floated by the PFA.

"There will be extra costs, of course. We are talking about more semi-professional or professional clubs, and of building a division that is a bridge to the A-League."

No shape for the proposed structure has been finalised. It could be two conferences of 10 teams, split on east-west or north-south lines, with the top two or four in each conference playing off in a finals series to determine who gets promoted.

Or it may be a genuinely national league of 20 clubs from all over the country, although the cost of travel and the logistics may make that prohibitively expensive.

The dream is alive, but much work remains to be done to find financiers and investors, sponsors and backers, to make it a reality.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/second-division-dream-alive-but-questions-over-finance-structure-still-to-be-answered-20170708-gx7a0f.html