I agree with this - Africa are producing better talent i'd say Africas ties to France have benefited them 'greatly' in terms of player development 

I do think the status quo is changing - if you look at the number of players from Japan, Korea etc heading to Europe as season pros it kind of shows Asia is producing its own talent. - Compare that to Africa in which 'young' exceptional talent is taken and developed by clubs in Europe 

This is a 'key' difference - if you need others to 'develop' your players then you will always be 2nd best - you need players to go from your domestic league to some big Euro league and slot right into the starting 11

you need to be able to develop players yourself and sell them on for mega $ to fund the future production line - essentially it is the trick down economic of football  

Croatia, Holland, Brazil, Argentina and a few other nations have got this worked to a 'tee' Japan, Mexico and Korea are not too far behind 

i'd say the MLS is hamstrung by the salary cap similar to the AL 

It is clear that Africa is a better confederation but it is 'also going no where' - nations cannot consistently produce top talent due to being at the mercy of European clubs. There is no 24 y.o African player going from Africa to Europe for >5m transfers - and thus is there issue it is sadly also our issue here in Australia

Correct.
We can only ever hope to earn crumbs for our players.
That's just the way the global system works.
Now that we have the likes of the City Group owning clubs, expect that situation to worsen.
Not too long ago someone did a table of our largest ever transfers (earned by Australian clubs), and I think 8 of 10 were from the NSL era, and the top one was sometime back in the late 90s (just going off memory).

Best team's finishing position over the last 5 cups (not including UEFA, CONMEBOL or CAF for Qatar as their positions aren't yet finalised), then (average). (NB: Aus 2006 is counting as AFC)

UEFA - ?, 1, 1, 1, 1 (1)
CONMEBOL - ?, 5, 2, 4, 5 (4)
CONCACAF - 14, 12, 8, 10, 14 (11.6)
CAF - ?, 17, 14, 7, 13 (12.8 (at least 11.8 after Qatar))
AFC - 9, 15, 27, 9, 16 (15.2)
OFC - NA, NA, NA, 22, NA (22)

Worst team's finishing position over the last 5 cups, then (average).

CONMEBOL - 20, 20, 17, 11, 18 (17.2)
OFC - NA, NA, NA, 22, NA (22)
UEFA - 30, 28, 26, 29, 32 (29)
CAF - 24, 31, 32, 31, 30 (29.6)
AFC - 32, 28, 30, 32, 28 (30)
CONCACAF - 31, 32, 31, 30, 31 (31)

Personally, I think it's a little disingenuous (I hope I'm using that word correctly - don't mean it as an insult if it comes across that way, just more of "stats not showing the full picture" thing) not to count Australia 2006 as OFC. The talent, team and qualification were all brought up through the OFC, and had only been in the AFC for 6 months at the time of the world cup matches actually starting. So, just for curiosity's sake, I've modified those stats to reflect that (and also counting NZ's playoff defeats for qualifying as '33' when calculating averages)

Best team's finishing position over the last 5 cups (not including UEFA, CONMEBOL or CAF for Qatar as their positions aren't yet finalised), then (average).
UEFA - ?, 1, 1, 1, 1 (1)
CONMEBOL - ?, 5, 2, 4, 5 (4)
CONCACAF - 14, 12, 8, 10, 14 (11.6)
CAF - ?, 17, 14, 7, 13 (12.8 (at least 11.8 after Qatar))
AFC - 9, 15, 27, 9, 17 (15.4)
OFC - NA, NA, NA, 22, 16 (27.4)

Worst team's finishing position over the last 5 cups, then (average).
CONMEBOL - 20, 20, 17, 11, 18 (17.2)
OFC - NA, NA, NA, 22, 16 (27.4)
UEFA - 30, 28, 26, 29, 32 (29)
CAF - 24, 31, 32, 31, 30 (29.6)
AFC - 32, 28, 30, 32, 28 (30)
CONCACAF - 31, 32, 31, 30, 31 (31)

Yeah there are arguments for an against, but the key reason for me choosing that was that my spreadsheet doesn't allow for changing of confederations, so it just has whatever confederation the country is currently in, and being too lazy to change it.

it is 'due to' the salary cap - players that are worth more arent able to be paid more thus sign short contracts (unless they are made marquee) and leave for pennies on the dollar. 

I dont mind City group because they are 'at least' investing in Grass roots for both the mens and womens game here but i do take your point 

Im a Victory fan but ill say at least City are trying to engage with the community and provide a viable pathway for players to make it big if they are good enough.

Mooy was developed at Bolton but his career was as a cross roads till he came back to the AL he never would of made it at his age to the EPL level if it wasnt for his time at City 

If you ask me we need to scrap the scape the cap or put in a transfer floor in which no player can be sold for less then 1.5m AUD 

Its such a complicated discussion because there are so many different things that make a confederation better than any other. As stated Euro and South America are 1 and 2 by a fair distance. 

I think there is very little between CAF, Concacaf and AFC. 

Liga MX and J league are both solid leagues. Good number of solid teams in CAF. CONCACAF drops off after Mexico. US is improving fast and Central America is a football mad and could take a step up as good as any mid tier AFC team. CAF have produced a lot of great players.

Its easy to spin the stats to whichever one you think is best. For me there is so little between the confeds. 

In my opinion the number of quality African teams and players they produce puts them in 3rd. Mexico carry NA to 4th because I think 1 strong team is worth more than 3 or 4 slightly weaker teams. AFC in 5th by a hair. If Japan and SK keep to their current trajectories then they may well catch Mexico. Though maybe the US start producing players to a similar quality as Africa. 

Love the discussion.

CAF could really change its standing one day IF they apply pressure on players who jump abroad to commit to their country of origin.
Who knows if they do enough or not........
CONCACAF re USA, with the mix playing against southern central america/carribbean and the hispanic influx naturalised over the many years imo USA is stagnet that suprise's me with all the resource, then again their own comp though improving we're led to believe commercially doesn't show playing standards are anywhere near EU and below.
With the exception of Pulisic (EPL) they have gone backwards having had Friedl/Dempsey/Howard in EPL back in the day and Donovan a stand out staying home.

One thing that has been mentioned many times from pundits like Henry, its about the Club football having great competition ala CL/Europa etc......
Davstar mentioned thats one of our very weak links the ACL, forgetting about the low prize money etc barring the outlier WSW win I don't see our Clubs take this seriously tbh unless I'm mistaken.
Its a interupton more than anything else.
Also people banging on about our league getting better, well whenever I watch those ACL games in hope we are owned but the odd close contest - don't bring up the $$$ spend diff talk about the ability team by team player by player.

AFC needs far more focus on to improve the ACL so as Club players can play against better opponents therefore lift their game as time goes by.
Thankfully Asian Cup isn't far off - we need more games to get stronger better.

Yeah a stronger ACL would be nice, but that's a few games a year for one or two clubs, and is not going to make the A-League much stronger, if at all. What we really need is more players. For that we need the best players to be playing the best players, and the next best playing the next best players. Currently our second tier consists of 89 clubs. That's around 2000 players spread way too thinly. We desperately need a national second division to be able to concentrate talent, and also make it easier for them to get scouted. It will also make it possible for more clubs to go professional. Additionally, unlike the ACL, a second division is actually within our power to achieve.

EDIT: I see now this is regarding Asia rather than Australia, so perhaps this is not so relevant to the conversation

well in part it can cover both for as you say ACL is one thing playing against better competition but its not regular enough the other locally agreed we desparately need the NSD and getting these Clubs Pro therefore more players in better structured comp and more games period.......
Its whats missing greatly having ALM separate at this stage that doesn't have enough Clubs as well.
Its all a huge handbrake right now.

Actually if the prize money was reasonable it would make the AL a hell of a lot stronger as teams would want to qualify to get the cash - money is the huge motivator ive been saying thie ACL qualifications should Automatically mean 3m USD to ea club and making it out of the group should be 5-6m winning the thing should be >30m

the ACL should be a massive boost not a massive burden to teams - atm the ACL is a fukn joke  

Yeah perhaps, provided some other changes are made. With a salary cap, it would just mean other leagues would outspend us and we'd never make it there in the first place. More prize money would best suit countries with well run leagues, and countries with money. We have neither. Even without the cap, if anyone came with the money, we'd probably just end up with a Leeds on our hands. Which is even more problematic without P&R.

Ditto.

Love the discussion too.

I've enjoyed the World Cup immensely.

Also, because the Asian Confederation has repudiated the prevailing view from Eurosnobs about how dreadful they think the standard of football is in Asia  relative  to their beloved Europe. 

there is nothing wrong with eurosnobs having their pref D2.
Back off this us vs them rhetoric.
Lets face it the Asian leagues are not that enticing, Iv'e watched JL a bit, its com si com sa, most of their top players are playing in europe.
19 or so of their 26man squad play in other leagues similar with SK.
Show me where I can watch a African league through my smart tv so we can asses their league.
Saudi, yer nah not going there.

Seriously what are you on about - don't get me wrong I love for the Asian sides to improve and really contest WC's deeper but its not there yet and IF we/they ever do it will because most of the players are cutting the mustard in good euro leagues full stop period.

Ofcourse a WC is awesum to watch, NT's lift no matter they are top or bottom thats what wearing your countries shirt does to any sportman/woman.
Spanners in the works are the wonderful theatrics of tournament football.
Beloved Europe will always prevail because its 2nd nature/culture be it being knocked out or not qualify like Italy, till we can compete then I'll sing koombiyah.

I've noticed a little spice on the forum when it comes to domestic vs euro discussions..

I'm very new to the forum so I have no idea about the history, but I imagine it has something to do with the claims regarding 'Old Sokkah' V 'New Football' in the country and who had close ties to European influence / developed better players and so on. 

I tend to think that Nostalgia is a powerful emotion that can evoke warm, happy memories of the past. However, nostalgia is not an accurate representation of the past and often has blind spots that can distort our memories and make us view the past through rose-colored glasses. Nostalgia can make us remember only the good parts of the past and forget the bad, or it can make us idealize the past and see it as being better than it actually was. This can lead us to believe that the past was a simpler, happier time, when in reality it was probably just as complex and fraught with challenges as the present. Additionally, nostalgia can make us overlook the ways in which the past was flawed or unjust, and can prevent us from learning from the mistakes of the past. Overall, nostalgia is a valuable emotion, but it is important to recognize its blind spots and not let it distort our view of the past.

Apologies for that tangent, anyway carry on :)

I think it is a bit sad, that such a large  percentage  of  the Aussie  population who ostensibly  follow football, denigrate/ignore the sport in their own country. And dismiss any notable achievements.

For once it is nice to see Aus in particular, and Asia in  general, have the most success  out of all continental football federations (along with UEFA), in qualifying for the last 16 knock out rounds in Qatar.

  

Fair comment.

Your input is valued.

There has been a great deal of opinion  aired in the football media about the era before 2006 and since. A  vast volume of footballers, in that era prior to 2006, have been forthright in denigrating the newer methodology, because ostensibly, there were a lot more players playing in the UEFA  big five leagues prior to 2005.

However, since their generation, when Aus didn't qualify for WCs for 32 years, football practices on the training  ground have changed immeasurably in Aus. Many of those older guys, haven't pursued any coach education since, or have pursued it in England.  England has been  recognised as quite backwards in terms of coach education, by the Spanish, Dutch, Germans and French.

At the lower level, people  like me  at only grass roots, underage rep level, NTC, SAP, NPL level, have  undertaken coach education with the old system and the new system. The new methodology is so superior it isn't funny. Craig Foster, Ante Jukic and Alistair Edwards, at the top  echelons  of football,  are former Socceroos  who have trained in the  new and the old.  They are blown  out by the new Baan/Berger inspired National Curriculum. All the current A League coaches and Aussie coaches who have coached here and are now overseas, are trained in the new methodology. It is why they've had success, and their services are sought after overseas.

A recent review has stated that many of the youth players, pre 2005, were very much match ready,  from playing in the old youth league system in the NSL. However, for any underage success, the football boffins from  Football Aus Technical Department, stated that for the success in underage football, internationally,  didn't extrapolate to success at senior level.

Henceforth, the focus has been to try and develop players through clubs again, instead of the NTC.  Notwithstanding , some GG players like Mark Viduka, has stated  how much  he learnt from Ron Smith at the NTC from a full time program,  compared to what he was learning with Melb Knights in a part time program.

Some pretty opinionated players from the GG have waxed lyrical how  good their era was. Many fans have listened. It seems like the newer  generation of recently retired footballers in Aus, have  been circumspect in publicising  how good they've been -  in qualifying for 5 successive World Cups. 

So despite football metrics that display how much the A L has improved - far less play in  the  Contested Ball Phase of Play ( Transitions), and far more play in Possession  and Ball Possession Opposition phases of play, the AL has been talked down.

So many think it is no good, because  they've  been told that. Hence, they look to Europe for their football. Moreover, many fans think the Socceroos are no good, because they don't play for big European clubs. 
   

don't see as a tangent just your pov bud no prob to me that........
I'm a far more open minded supporter of the game some may/weill call me a eurosnob but I also support passionately local football.
I put my money where my mouth is on both fronts.
The eurosnob attack is more so towards the ones who don't follow any local football and only turn up in numbers for the OS exhibition games - so they get clipped by the younger (in some case's) AL supporter crowd.
The new sockha I suspect has a chip on the shoulder due to the divide caused back 17yrs ago hence them standing by their pov.
People have choice's simple as that.
Your nostalgia twang maybe in the line of the ol sockha supporter who actually nowadays dgaf tbh, some have just left supporting their ol nsl Club more than hanging around and slanging of the past compared to new.
I just like pull up stooopid pov's by some be it about ol sockha or eurosnobs, we all love the game respect works both ways.

Do you think that many European countries would be disappointed that they have struggled to perform outside Europe in World  Cups, given their world rankings prior?

We've now had 3 out of the last 4 World Cups held  outside Europe.

Which UEFA countries have performed equal to, or better than, their world rankings prior to these WCs,  outside Europe in the three World Cups - starting with South Africa 2010, Brazil 2014 and Qatar 2022?

Netherlands have reached the last 16 and better in each of those tournaments. Germany excelled in 2010 and 2014, but  bombed out  in Qatar.

 Have France, Portugal,Switzerland, Croatia, England ( I think they were knocked out in the group phase in 2010) made it out of every group stage?

By the Way Riquelme's laces, LFC is a passionate supporter of Aus football. He is no Eurosnob!

We did good. The next World Cup split over the three countries with Asia's increased spots will be quite interesting.   Will the extra teams dilute the achievements of this World Cup by our confederation by having lesser quality teams in the extra 4 places?

D2, without looking at placings v rankings, I know off the top of my head that the last 4 World Cups (06, 10, 14, 18) have been won by European countries, and 7 of the 8 finalists were European countries. It is still possible that the two finalists this year will come from Europe.

I wouldn't say that European countries as a group have struggled to perform outside Europe, especially considering that until 2010 a European team had never won outside Europe. There have been individual countries that have performed worse than expected, as always happens (Italy and Brazil 1966, England not qualifying in 74, 78 and 94, Spain pretty much always until 2010, etc). Of course the welcome rise in non-European/South American countries in the last 30 years has also been a factor in reducing the number of European/South American countries in the knockout stages as well.

The country that I suspect has probably really struggled to perform in the last few WC's, considering result against pre-tournament FIFA ranking, would be Brazil.

Edit: Just looked up Brazil's pre-tournament ranking for last 5 WC's
2006 - 1
2010 - 1
2014 - 3
2018 - 2
2022 - 1

Us vs them - is a result of the lop-sideness of Eurosnob snide comments as quite rightly pointed out by Decentric.

Appreciate your passion for football overall though ;)

Yep, it's a bit a bit like observing your daughter in her dress before her prom and saying, but miss world is prettier.

That comment isn't creepy at all. 

Doesn't a European not winning outside of Europe until 2010 show that European nations as a group have struggled?  This is EIGHTY years of failure, not one or two World Cups and that with enormous resources and players available.

What that shows and what this World Cup shows is just how mentally weak the Europeans are when they don't have the home court advantage, the home court crowd and the home court refereeing  All of them England, France, Italy Netherlands,Spain, Portugal- but not the Cro's- have at various times shat the bed when they didn't have those advantages.  Even the Germans, renowned for their mentality have crapped themselves.

If you read Decentric's post I was responding to, he was talking about the last 4 WC's, 3 of which have been held outside Europe. I was responding with this as the context, not all WC's since 1930.

But you're factually incorrect: TWO the last four world Cups were held in UEFA: Germany 2006 and Russia 2018.  That's  a massive home ground advantage to UEFA.  A Euro nation won both of those, surprise, surprise.

And even if you were factually correct I still don't agree bringing up the fact Europe hadn't won until 2010 supports what you're claiming. 

European teams are mentally weak when things are not tipped in their favour.

Yeah, whatever mate. Again, look at the post from Decentric, he is referring to the last 4 including this one.

But I'm not responding to what he posted.  I'm responding to this.



Two of those "last" four World Cups you mention were played in Europe. You've selected a period to make a point and it doesn't.

As much as I enjoy a good argument, I’ll take Mark Twain’s advice on arguing with idiots and leave this one. Google it if you aren’t familiar with it.