Indeed and they still manage to pick the wrong players. Players out of form or players coming back from injury always throw a spanner in the works.
If you are paying the manager to manage, then let him get on with it. I think there was more of an perception issue with Pim because we all knew before the WC that he was leaving straight after.

Fine, your choice but I don't think you've proved anything. You chose to have a go at me, not the other way around.

As a first generation "wog" growing up in a small country town I've had first hand experience at copping bigoted shit. I also work for an organisation that helps the most marginalised people in our society and would never use such terms as "un-Australian" in that context. However, football is about national identity and much of the debate over this world cup campaign is how the way the Socceroos played against Germany was "un-Australian" and the way they played in the following two games was exactly how Australians saw themselves. In this context it is completely valid to use such terms.

I've given my definition of "un-Australian" for you and you've ignored it, just tried to compare me to Pauline Hanson.

I can clearly see that football has yet to connect with the mainstream Australian culture and it will have to if it is going to grow out of this niche market that it is in.

Edited by Ecce: 26/6/2010 09:38:50 AM

I tend to agree.

If a panel of any sort had the expertise to advise, override or direct a highly competent, internationally recognised coach, the panel members would be highly competent, internationally recognised coaches, not ex players on a panel. Such a system would render any coach obsolete, his expertise, knowledge and experience of little consequence and provide very fertile grounds for bickering and politics.

Full article

http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=35378

Don't accuse me of being politically correct, Sir.

My dislike for for the term and any other used to devalue another's worth as an Australian, Sir, is because i work with kids that cop bigoted shit every day of their f****** lives and seeing the resulting damage and long term problems originating from it.

As someone commented previously, un-Australian is a term used by those wishing to hide their insecurities. That's all I'm saying on the matter.

Cricket has a selection panel so the idea isn't exactly uncommon and can be an effective way of selecting teams/squads.

I think the idea does have some merit and probably does warrant further discussion although I am not particularly a fan.

I bet if you asked Pim whether he was being honest or rude and combative, he would have told you he was just being honest. My experience of my Dutch relatives and friends make me confident of this.

I presume your dislike of un-Australian is just political correctness because I think it's valid in this context. He's not a minority, the guy is paid $2m to lead our national football team on the greatest sporting stage in the world, he should learn how to relate to the mainstream Australian culture.

I'm not implying anything of the sort. If pim, for example, said something that was taken as rude or combative, that is in fact, rude and combative, not un-Australian. If I'm rude, insulting and combative to you, i'm not un-Australian, I'm being an arse.

You see, it's quite simple really, Australians can be rude and combative, or even an arsehole, quite well indeed and still be very much Australian while practising the supposed telling it like it is, straight talking - don't bullshit a bullshitter Australian way that's often boasted as part of our culture.

I actually abhor the use of the term un-Australian, as it's more often than not used as a cheap shot by those in our community, personally reluctant to grant equal status to those different. Hanson was a stereotypical abuser of the term.

THIS.

Germany had Klose, Podolsky, Gomez, Cacau, and the top striker in the Bundesliga, as their strike force. We had Kennedy, Cahill, Kewell, Ruka, and could have had MacDonald. Slight difference in personel there!! He mentioned Ruka beacsue that highlighted the gulf between the two sides: Ruka was dropped by the reserves team of his club, whereas Loew had gomez, Cacau and others on the bench.

If you were the coach would you prefer to be Loew or Verbeek?

We were always going to lose to Germany and 2-0 would have been attainable with 11 men. We still needed to beat Ghana.

And Fozinho has rocks in his head if he thinks that any coach with a grain of self-respect is going to let Charlie Yankos and Paul Wade vet his team selection and tactics for its "Australianess". And I thought thats what Graham Arnold was there for anyway!!

And for people saying how shit Ghana were, they had more chances against Germany than either us or Serbia.

The group ended more or less to form.

Why do you keep saying "exclusive"? Just because something is culturally Australian doesn't mean that other cultures can't have similar behaviours.

to do or say something in an "un-Australian" way means that it is not something an Australian would do or say because they have an inherent understanding of how it would be perceived by their fellow Australians. It is cultural ignorance or naivety.

If you are implying that there is no such thing as Australian culture you are very wrong.

Standing up for your mates isn't exclusive to Australians. What is a 'true Australian'?

I've also seen you make a comment previously that something Pim did was 'un-Australian'. What does that term mean and what is it that is exclusive to Australians that could make someone 'un-Australian'.

I'd back a passionate Aussie Foster over a "truthful" Verbeek any day.

Football in Australia has to find its Australian identity if it has any hope of mainstream success. It has to resonate in the hearts of all Australians and not be some boutique Euro import.

In this country you stand up for your mates! Craig Foster knows this. Every true Australian knows this.

It is clear that the players had to perform without the belief of the coach. It will be good to see the back of you Verbeek. I don't think anyone will be welcoming you back any time soon.

Found it:
http://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/article1390246.ece/Voor_Verbeek_dreigt_roemloos_afscheid

I couldn't find a good way to translate this though. I also think he has been taken out of context somewhat. He seems to be talking about (from what I can tell) about the quality of players Germany could call on compared to Australia.

There is no mention of 'whether he should have been in charge of Germany rather than Australia' in there so that has been made up. Nor is there 'bagging Australian football' other than he doesn't have a team full of Germans. No surprises there. It would seem Fozz has tried to beat it up. There is no 'story being kept quiet' because Verbeek hasn't said anything other than what we already know about the game and the socceroos.

Here is Google translate (I have copied only part of the article):

Unhappy
In the first half showed even the usually reliable goalkeeper Schwarzer his team in the lurch by following a misunderstanding with captain Neill under the ball to run. Verbeek: "The second goal for Germany was very unhappy. Normally it does not Schwarzer, he just dominated in the penalty area. "

At the world championships in 2006, the Blackburn Rovers goalkeeper after a blunder even replaced by the then coach Guus Hiddink, though his replacement Kalac little better. But Verbeek has no alternatives. The champion of Oceania is a small player in the World Cup.

Verbeek: "Most Asian opponents are afraid of us and walk backwards. But Germany is a different story. We had to lose with greater numbers. That team had a great World Cup qualifying play. I consider Germany as one of the contenders for the title. "

You did the selections of Germany and Australia but in parallel to establish the class difference to interpret. In the heart of the Australian Defence ordered the 34-year-old Craig Moore why he is the only World Cup participant has no club. Verbeek: "That guy played last season simply in the Australian league and not at Real Madrid. And then he was not even the worst. "

Casually exchange
With some jealousy Verbeek had his German colleague Joachim Löw carelessly see change. "Look who he can bring all his team without there by being weaker. And look at my bench. Rukavytsya was not good enough for FC Twente 2 and I must do it by default to incursions into the Australian team. That is the reality. "

To make matters worse cashed the only striker to score Australia who knows one red card. Formal Cahill rightly punished for his tackle from behind on the legs of Schweinsteiger. But Han Berger, Technical Director of the Australian Football Federation, said at his first World Cup final but having seen grosser violations.



Edited by padfoot: 25/6/2010 01:09:37 PM

OMG Pim said that we played badly against Germany, he said that Australia is currently struggling for depth, that we have players not playing in the top clubs in the world, that we have players without any clubs at all! How could he! For shame...

In other news: Dog bites man!

i agree. pim told it as it was - moore had an absolute shocker that game, and our bench has players who are struggling to get game time in their league. shock horror! he also put his own hand up to blame for that result.

i'm sure more will come out in the wash post-WC, but fozzie has lost the plot on this point.



one thing relating to his rant last night, i do agree that there should be more football people in our admin and delegation that is at the WC, as long as they are capable administrators/ambassadors as well as being recognised former players.

+1 to both comments.

This. After Foster's blow up I thought it'd be way worse.

So Veebeek tells the truth that we have very little depth and Fozz and his cohorts get up in arms but when Hiddink said exactly the same thing in 2006 no one raised an eyebrow.

Not as bad as i was expecting, but still shocking to talk about your squad like that especially when its a squad you picked.

Glad Pim is leaving as he doesnt understand the australian mentality at all, and has stagnated the game here with his mega boring defense only football. I really feel for the youth of Morocco with this ass-fuck guiding them.

Sounds to me like a coach strutting the world stage with a very inflated ego.

If that is what he said, it's a shambles.

This guy has zero credibility as far as i'm concerned.

We only got through Asia because of the players will to win, despite being handicapped by ultra-defensive tactics and going against every principle of our national team.

Then in the biggest game of his life against Germany, he goes against his own principles and uses a formation never tried before confusing the crap out of the players.

At half time of that game it as reported he looked like a rabbit in the headlights and didn't know what to do.

Make no mistake, the only reason we salvaged pride in this WC was because the players took responsibility and played for Australia.

I can't believe he had the gaul to criticise our players to another country, in the middle of the WC.

If i was the Moroccan FA, i would be looking for a lawyer to get the contract ripped up. I feel sorry for the future of that country with that muppet involved.

I think there should be checks and balances - if someone's running the team into the ground like Pim was there should be some way to kick him into line or out the door.

thats a bit of a poor comment to make considering he left Scott McDonald out of his squad. Ok, he's not Klose or Torres but certainly well enough credentialed...

Maybe you should read the sentence first I wasn't quoting anyone. The comment was made shortly after I started the tread, thus just confirmed by Bash.

When I am next reporting to my editor I will remember to make sure it's a "seperate unbiased source" until then I think i'll be ok.

It was at an open press conference. It was asked by a Dutch paper but plenty of Australian media was there - and it was reported. Great scoop Fozz!!

usually when you quote someone to confirm something they are from a separate unbiased source.

Exaggerating isnt a lie, they will be exaggerating they always do, they are unprofessional, arrogant, small minded and run agendas whenever it suits them.

I don't think Foz really meant it in that way. Like some kind of fellowship of the Socceroos panel following the squad everywhere?? All he meant was that it was un-Australian and negative and that if we had people like Yankos and other former Socceroo guys around the team it wouldn't have happened. If we had gone out with the same mind set and tactics against Ghana as we did against Germany i would have expected some kind of internal revolt!!

Instead we had ppl like Ben buckley, and Frank Lowy, no offence guys... who are admins and spokespeople for the game and have never worn the shirt..

I wasn't saying it was true, merely that Bash had confirmed he heard the same too :-k