Cheers Arthur. I thought Victoria would be set up like QLD (Brisbane) and NSW where the leagues below the top are regular promotion and relegation comps (for teams based in the big smoke) rather than zonal amateur leagues you are saying what happens in Victoria.

Why do they have to touch the old clubs at all. Levying junior clubs to pay for ambitious and poorly supported senior competitions is the bane of football in Australia (and NZ too!).

I think the idea of a summer regional based representative comp has some merit.... but the cost and the unnessesary ****ing over of the existing system just feel incompetent.


Edited by Andyroo: 10/12/2010 11:18:10 AM

Please refer to first post, objective is to remove the VPL as the first tier in Victoria. All Clubs to be made amatuer and to play in their repective zones.

Questions around funding these Zone Clubs, where they would play, volunteer support.

Already funding is being diverted to the VCL competition from the FFV, therefore the current VPL/State League Clubs and players are actually funding it.

The Senior Standing Committee has already put a recommendation to the FFV Board that the VPL be played in Summer.
While the Proposal for the VCL to be played in Summer has no support from the "grassroots" or FFV members. It is a top down proposal.


Sorry I made a couple of minor changes;



Edited by Arthur: 10/12/2010 01:04:01 PM

Ok. Your personal view is that the FFA 'Fucked up' the HAL, WC bid and somehow likely caused the hole in the ozone layer too, I would suspect, but thats your own opinion and you can hold that. Good for you.

As for realty checks, some in the current structure need one too. Its hard to do ANYTHING in this sport without causing a war. Any attempt to change is met with 'banding together', which is all very gratifying to some, but leaves the game in the same position as always, along with a very bad taste in many mouths.

The grassroots system needs some reform, its a matter of finding what it is. Sitting here blaming others, with no forward vision, will not help anyone.

Edited by heart_fan: 9/12/2010 08:31:40 PM

Why don't they just play the current VPL in summer then rather than start a 'new' zonal franchise comp that no one is remotely interested in? A lot easier and cheaper this way. Current VPL clubs are fuming and have banded together on this.
Why should they lose their current status as the top tier in the state that they've worked long and hard for?

Cannot trust the FFA/FFV on anything to do with football matters anymore. They've fucked up the HAL, their expansion teams have been total failures and the WC bid was a disaster. That's enough of a mess they've created.

These type of visions and reforms cost a lot of money and given the current football climate here a massive risk. Don't think the govt will be too interested in this reform given they've been dudded on the HAL and WC bid already.
FFA and FFV need a massive reality check.


Edited by smfc and proud: 9/12/2010 04:31:14 PM

Am I reading it wrong. It looks like this is setting up basically a victorian summer comp a bit similar to the NYL structure. It seems the players can keep playing for their "community" clubs no problem during the winter and there is no need to scrap the VPL. and they can just carry on regardless with the same level of players/football?




Edited by Andyroo: 9/12/2010 11:42:05 AM

My apologies you are correct. My statement should read as follows

I thought this was the FFV's proposal TO the NCR (which was sent to the current VPL clubs for discussion... well thats what they are calling it) NOT the findings or model that has been selected BY the NCR.

All State fed's will get a say not just the FFV, i honestly can't see NNSW going for this, the idea of the NCR is to create a uniform structure that is feasible for all state feds to implement, this is why i cant see the creation of these zone teams being embraced by enough of the state feds to get it across the line.

Edited by danp638: 7/12/2010 02:44:16 PM

We now have the first indication of what is proposed from the NCR and its just a rehash of the FFV's Zone League.

While supposedly a "Discussion Paper" its more like setting out an agenda, one with limited options.



http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=45516&p=9

1 Discussion Paper

2nd Tier Football
The Gap between A-League and Community Clubs

The Issue:

With the establishment of the successful A-League structure, the gap between the existing community club structure and the A-League/W-League has become too wide. Furthermore current community club structures are fee paying structures, with the clubs that are “perceived” to be at the top (highest level men’s leagues) able to charge the most, some in excess of $1,000 per season for talented junior players. The cost to play for talented players in this environment is a barrier to ensuring the best talented players are given the opportunity to excel.

With the strong interest in semi professional teams by a range of stakeholders, a restructure of the semi professional men’s competition, driven by FFA policy, and delivered by Member Federations can create a structure to fill this the gap between A-League and Community clubs, whilst providing the right coaching environment for the development of talented players that is delivered at no costs to the participants.

Objectives:to provide a second tiered competition platform in Australia that is consistent across member federations and can provide, if necessary, a future means for promotion and relegation to the A-League;

to provide an Australia wide consistent platform for talented young men (focus 18 to 23 yrs) to progress their careers towards a professional career in the sport to provide National Curriculum accredited clubs that increase access to football for aspiring talented participants (men, women and youth) in metropolitan and regional Australia, with a focus on the development of players, coaches, referees and volunteers to provide clearer pathways for players from junior/community club level to the Hyundai A-League/National Youth League for men, and to the W-League for women;

to remove the cost barrier and provide cost free development for Australia’s talented players from the age of 9;

to ensure FFA/Member Federation approved and accredited coaches have access to progress as a coach through talented player pathways up to senior men and women;

to provide family-friendly access to state football for a wider market of Australian football supporters and to encourage grassroots participation as a result of that engagement;

to create a vehicle upon which to take football into the media spotlight at a state level and that can attract new and long term corporate media partners to football at all levels across Australia;

to provide more and to improve existing regional/national standard facilities across Australia to the entire football community but particularly the talented players and all relevant stakeholders of the competition;

and to connect community men’s and women’s football clubs with the professional/semi professional systems in Australia by the introduction of knock out state cup system that leads to national Cup finals



2 Model for the future:

A-League model:

Use a License model similar to the A-League license and require Member Federation to replicate at their level. The non-negotiable terms of the license are:

Regionalise Clubs:

Member Federation to divide their state/territory into areas (zones) where each club is given an exclusive area to promote, develop and recruit players.

Clubs must select players from this exclusive area for junior age groups. This requirement would be less restricted at the senior level.

Governance structure:

Regional club governance structure must be community based – no single ownership models.
Directors can’t be involved with a community club.

Separation from community football:

Clubs cannot enter senior or junior teams in community winter football competitions.

New name and colours:

Clubs must have new identity that is not associated with existing club. If an existing club applies for, and is accepted, to receive a license, it must change name and colours and cease participating in winter community football competitions.

Men’s squad:

Must have certain squad requirements regarding youth development:

o Quotas on overage players (over 23)
o Minimum quotas for the level of local talent in squad, and
o No international visa players allowed (exception may be partnerships that FFA has with approved AFC national authorities)

Salary cap for men’s squad:

Use a points system, where discounts are made for local talented players recruited from the club’s exclusive recruitment area.
Link payment schedules to National Youth League payments for players under 21, maintain amateur status for U21 players.

Women’s squad:

Must include an amateur women’s team as part of the club structure with minimum quotas for local talent License fee:

Member Federation to set license fee, primarily for the promotion and marketing of the league to ensure it is presented at a higher level than current community winter leagues.

Clubs fees:

Clubs excluded from charging the talented junior participants a fee to be involved in program. Must offer programs free of charge Junior talented player:

Clubs must commit to talented player development. Must have junior team structure that are selected representative teams made up of talented players selected from the community (winter) clubs within the exclusive area. Age brackets to include:

o Skill Development Squad: 9-12 yrs boys and girls
o Boys: U13, U14, U15, U17
o Girls: U13, U15, U17


Season:

Senior men and women’s teams to mirror National Youth League season;

Alternatively;

Senior men and women’s teams only to play during winter months. This allows the best talent from the regional clubs to participate in NYL and W-League.

Season for talented junior players:

Representative teams selected from community junior clubs.

Summer: Play and train with regional club
Winter: Train as rep squad in winter, players play for their local community club (provides the connection to local community). This provides year round development.


3 National Curriculum accreditation:

Must be a National Curriculum accredited club. Maybe this can be exclusive to the regional clubs?

Coach appointment:

Regional Clubs to appoint and appropriately remunerate all coaches for all their teams. FFA to set minimum requirements, Member Federation Technical Directors to have power of veto over appointments for talented junior team coaches Coach reporting.
Coaches’ contracts to stipulate a formal reporting process to Member Federation Technical

Director and FFA Skill development coaches Facilities:

Clubs to provide a minimum standard stadia for men’s and women’s game, must include training/playing facilities for junior teams. Base the junior training/playing facility requirements on English FA Academy/Centre of Excellence requirements.

Community engagement:

Must provide plan and budget for community engagement with local clubs, councils and communities linked to delivery outcomes of National Development plan and MF development plan. – “Audited and monitored” by Member Federation game development unit on yearly bases.

Process for issuing licences:

Open tender must meet all set standards set in licence document. If existing club submits and is successful for license – must relinquish winter football position and have no ties to winter.
Must adopt new name and colours for new league. Panel of FFA/Member Federation to determine license

Connection with winter football:
All winter/community club competitions to be amateur FA CUP (Dockerty Cup in Victoria) – to be introduced across Australia with National final process to proceed after state finals are finalised.

I think if we had won the WC bid the ffa would have felt invincible and pushed through state reform, i understand the review is coming up but the failure of not landing the WC and in humiliating fashion might serve as a warning to the ffa that the state league should not be tampered with, they wouldnt wanna tinker with a whole lot now.

Wouldn't wait with too much interest RedEyeRob, if the results of the NCR aren't in line with Lowy's thinking, he'll do what he wants and blame old sokkah if it doesn't work out.

A step back, or a step down?

I wait with bated breath on the results of the NCR.

I think the ffa/ffv will take a step back after losing the WC bid to be honest.

Too early for that.

It will come, but the fact is that elections do not solve many issues, they create more, especially in football, especially if the structure/environment is not right at this time.

The structure needs to be agreed upon by stakeholders, then we can move on. Thats what the structure review will do.



Edited by Heart_fan: 30/11/2010 09:48:24 PM

That's why there should be elections....open elections.....including the states and the clubs......you know....majority rules

The question that needs to be asked is, what is the right mix of club/FFA control? Either party having sole power is a not a good thing, and nothing will change my opinion on that.

The issue with clubs having too much control revolve around self-interest, and lack of support of the broader sport which may occur. This has happened in the past, which is one of the main reasons that the changes were made in the structure in the past decade.

The FFA/State Federations having continued sole control raises issues around independance of the comps and the ability to operate away from the deals that the FFA are locked into. Those include sponsorship limitations, which are a major issue currently for HAL clubs.

Its about finding a balance that is sustainable that has the games best interests at heart, not a few people making power plays, whether it be the FFA, State Federations or the clubs.



Edited by Heart_fan: 30/11/2010 09:10:27 PM

Clubs, regardless what level they play in require the following.......... and unless it is implemented in Australia - the game will never reach its potential

Ambition - Just like a player has ambition to play at an elite level - the reason he/she trains so hard day in day out in the lower leagues for hours each week - under paid (if at all) and under recourced - they keep up the work because there might be an opportunity for them that one day they will be an elite player and all their hard work will pay off

Clubs are the same - volunteers put in the building blocks - many talented and professional people put in the effort - either via boards - committees - consultancy levels because they have the same dream as these players - to what day participate at an elite level

We are not all gifted footballers - many of us have a dream to play at an elite level whether it be on a park or of it via a club we love - that is why many put in countless hours - they do not get paid for it

This proposed structure By the FFV - places a cap on clubs along the lines of "you will never ever be nothing more than a community club" - this proposal closes that dream and with it the ambition - and with it the talented people that hold these clubs in place

You cannot replace this type of football culture with money - the startegy should be to get the best out of this culure - not replace it - because you cannot replicate this level of football knowledge

Let me respond for you Arthur:

The clubs want to appoint and pay their own person to sit at the FFSA office and run the competition based on the super league and premier league club requirements.

Most clubs have been attending meetings together following much disgruntlement. And then a couple of the clubs (appointed by this consortium) have met with the FFSA board to advise them of their intentions and preferences.

Doesn't this sound extremely familiar to what's happening in the A-League, the NSW Premier League and the Victoria Premier League of late???

It's funny that the ONE thing most clubs and franchises in this country want, is also the same thing that was recommended in the Crawford report, and is also the same thing the governing bodies won't give up: CONTROL of THE LEAGUES.

Yes, the pendulum has swayed too far.

Very interesting get RedEyeRob, I'm not sure how to respond except to say maybe the pendulum has swayed too far the other way?

As i said above, it has now become public:

Yeh you're right, the NSL did die a painful death but most of the clubs in it are still around with their assets, volunteers etc and will continue to do so unfortunately for you. The HAL lost more last year than what the NSL did in its entire existence. If that keeps up then it to will lose its relevance eventually. Market forces will dictate the path the HAL will go and at the moment its not really happening eh?. That's business unfortunately. How long can ANY business sustain multi million dollar losses in a competitive and crowded marketplace.

What do you expect clubs and its fans to do if they keep on being dudded, humiliatted, marginalsed etc. Just sit their and take it? What world do you live in? Disneyland?

People can support more than 1 team you know, particularly when they are in different leagues. Do we expect to grow the local game if we all just support one team in one comp only? Thats a very myopic vision you are trying to state.

The new league will have limited success though, as there will be those left out in the process, whether its because the current structure is kept or a new model is put into place. Whichever way the FFV turn it will be the loser in one way or the other, it will just be a matter of which way has more potential to grow the game in this state.

The fact remains the NSL died a painful death, which had no money and no relevance to TV broadcasters, sponsors or the broader public, which you need to have onside for growth to occur. Football is a business, which needs to grow to succeed. The HAL might not be a financial success yet, but has many more elements going for it than the NSL did, which is fundamental to comparing the position we are in today, compared to the days of Soccer Australia and the NSL.

Franchises might be a dirty word to you, but its the only relevant business set-up that could realistically work in starting up new sporting teams. It does lack history, but also comes with less baggage, which some teams unfortunately were carrying.

Truth be told, people will never be happy. Theres so many out there that want to see things fail just to strengthen their own positions, which unfortunately are those calling themselves football fans. Politics ruins the game of football worldwide and thats unlikely to change.

Why do you need a club to follow in the state league if you already support the Heart Franchise? Or are you one of those guys that need a team in every competition so it is relevant for you.

Then why do you care if you don't support.

Love my VPL and my A-league. Pleasure to watch players like Matthew Leckie take the next step.

Governing body in keeping league solvent shocker.

I have been on Mars for the last decade, in a cave, with my eyes shut and my fingers in my ears.

Where the fuck did you rip that out from, 'Auditing Weekly'????

Football clubs around the world belong to its members and fans. They couldn't care less what others think of them. Go ask any Barca, Inter, Liverpool, Bayern fan. As if they give a shit what Real, ManU, Juve think of them.

Sporting franchisers belong to fickle customers such as your mainstream self. Enjoy.

Yep the market will decide the relevance and existence of any enterprise, even the HAL. If not for continual FFA welfare and handouts the HAL would already be dead. Hopefully the $45 million they received from the govt for the WC bid went directly towards the actual bid.

where have you been hiding?:d

To me, that's not pluralism, it's economic rationalism. Pluralism is many different models operating in the same sphere with equal rights to existence and prosperity.

Marconi United HNK :shock: