I think we have two great opportunities on the horizon for the State League clubs to engage with the FFA and the A-League for the benefit of Australian football at all levels.

The FFA Cup and a second tier are both fantastic opportunites...how would you like to see them structured?

I would like to see the FFA Cup open to every club in Australia.

how should the second tier comp be structured? Should it comprise State League teams, new regional franchises or a combination of both?

I personally would like to see a combination of both with a weighting towards teams on markets without a A-League representation...towns like Darwin, Wollongong, Canberra and Tasmania for example.

Edited by joffa: 14/1/2011 10:02:42 AM

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I AGREE WITH JOFFA!

FFA CUP - now everyone can enter for a fee and the fee is prorated to the size of the club
Second Division - promo and relegation after first season, combination of old clubs and new regionals, and money talks nothing else. You got the money you come in and no one can say anything

Lets do it joffa, pass a motion at work and get ben to do it we know u can

Friendlies between state-league sides and ASB Premiership outfits would be good.

Should NZ have teams in a second tier comp?

Should NZ teams participate in a FFA comp?

I think Wellington Phoenix should participate but as for the rest...

OK I have alot of respect for Joffa but why bring this topic(s) up again.

given this is under grass roots try and give the discussion a more of a grass roots slant of the subject.

*Wouldn't grass root clubs want to play against new opponents outside of their local association/zone but not interstate, so how do you keep the draw resonable but also have interesting & unusual matchups?
At what levels should a FFA plate or FFA Vase be? or should there only be state based cups?
*If the lower level team should be given home ground advantage, how should it be determined which is the lower team.
* How do you address the gap between local and state league clubs and create promotion relegation systems between each for the various state Federation setups?
* How should the womans and youth competiton setups be oranised?

The thing about a cup comp is that despite probably lower attendances, especially for games played midweek, they have the potential to be quite lucrative due to the lower stadia costs for state league and lower tiered teams. In the current fiscal environment in the A-League a 3 or 4 game cup run could have quite a positive effect on a clubs bottom line...this will result in a lot more money flowing through all tiers of football in Australia.

I want this to happen, I want the FFA Cup first open to all clubs across Australia as I think it will help set us up towards a second tier which should be brought in about 10 years time. The FFA Cup will give clubs that were in the NSL a chance to re enter the national conscious in a positive manner and help to chip away at the unnecessary fear that still pervades the Australian football and wider community. I am not so convinced by the new regional franchises other than in places that have no other means of entering the national competition (for example Tasmania).

I think the FFA Cup will more than anything highlight the inherent strength that resides within football, it is in all markets/communities, and is at its very core is democratic as on any given day David can beat Goliath...the positive aspects will be immense....and the costs should be manageable.

IMO:
Wouldn't grass root clubs want to play against new opponents outside of their local association/zone but not interstate, so how do you keep the draw resonable but also have interesting & unusual matchups?
Luck of the draw. Teams would be grouped in conferences depending on region and team numbers, not state lines. Example: Caboolture to Byron, Byron to Coffs, Coffs to Forster, Forster to Newy, Newy to Wollongong, Wollongong to Eden, etc. I could draw a map, but CBF.
* At what levels should a FFA plate or FFA Vase be? or should there only be state based cups?
Let's not complicate things.
*If the lower level team should be given home ground advantage, how should it be determined which is the lower team.
Seeding based on the previous season, though this in itself brings problems. Example: if SMFC drew Sutherland in the Fourth Round, home ground advantage would be random, as both teams finished 6th in their respective leagues. If, however, SMFC drew Canberra FC (who won the ACTPL last year, I think), then CFC would have home advantage, due to the quality difference between Canberra and the VPL. There'd have to be a system by which State PLs were organised into teirs depending on quality.
* How do you address the gap between local and state league clubs and create promotion relegation systems between each for the various state Federation setups?
That's a long way off.
* How should the womans and youth competiton setups be oranised?
They can't be, yet. The W-League draws too strongly from the local Institutes and PLs to function in a FFA Cup.[/quote]

Not a bad scenario Joffa.
FFA Cup(100%knockout) is an absolute must. Maybe start off with 32 clubs, see how it goes then expand it if it's warranted. What I don't want to see and would be laughable to the extreme is for the FFA to 'tell us' that grass roots clubs will be 'represented' in the FFA Cup by new zonal franchisers that has been cryptically mentioned. An FFA Cup should be about 'uniting' the various elements of the game not further alienation. I simply can't see any issue or problem by MV v SMFC or Roar v Knights or Glory v Olympic cup ties. I think it's time the FFA grew up here in regards to treating old school clubs with a bit of dignity.
As for 2nd tier, forget it. The football economy just can't afford it and unless the richer state league clubs are meaningfully involved in any 2nd tier, forget it even more. It's all about the dollars, there aren't any, especially in regional areas. The failure rate in those areas has been high over the years in the various codes. I'd rather my club play in a properly functioning VPL where I am able to watch them week in week out throught a season and hopefully the odd Cup game against one of the franchisers.

However we are talking about the FFA here. The organisation that has overseen expansion failures, the WC bid debacle and massive HAL franchise losses. The success of the Socceroos and 'my shit don't smell' Lowy have kept their footballing incompetence from being totally exposed. They'll probably fuck up any Cup comp and/or 2nd tier judging by their record. Got no faith in 'shopping centre executives' that are making football related decisions nowdays.

Basically the game must learn to live within it's means and constraints. Ideas, restructures plans etc are great but they cost time and money. FFA Cup definately yes, 2nd tier - no for the time being at least.

The FFA Cup is well within reach, and you're right Joffa, I think it will help bridge the gap too. TBH I would give my left nut to see a team like SydUtd knock out Newc Jets then take on SydFC in the later rounds of competition. I don't even like SydUtd but how good would that be?? After last year's surveys I'm really hoping to see some developments from FFA soon.

As for the 2nd tier...... I'm sorry but I can't see it happening until the state federations are disbanded, travel costs come down, and sponsorship goes up. So perhaps 15 years away?? Unless the state leagues continue as per usual with the top 2 from each going into a playoff for the promotion spot...? I dunno...

But yeah, FFA Cup FTW.

the FFA is a must. but the 2nd teir, forget it for now.
as for the ffa cup i think it should work like this:
starts off just teams in each state. for eg nsw: the premier league teams can be drawn against div 2 sides. so any team can enter. once there are around 6 teams or so left (remember this is for each state so total of 48 (i dont know about NT football) ) then introduce the A League teams. now to help keep the costs minimal for the state league teams the first two rounds are played at the lesser teams (so the team in the lower division) home. now say if blacktown city vs some team in perth. obviously one team is going to need financial assistance so this is where the FFA needs to step in. anything they make out of this FFA Cup NEEDS to be put back into it.
play it as one leg ties.
so all up there should be around 48 state league teams who have a chance to be drawn against a league teams. the state league teams will be given assistance to travel. a one leg tie from start to finish.

This is what I would like to see happen, well something similar to this anyway. These teams could be used to provide future A-League expansion being replaced by other teams...depending on the finanacial modelling promotion/relegation wouldn't totally be out of the equation in this scenario in the longer term.

Second tier

Darwin
Canberra
Sunshine Coast
Auckland/Christchurch
Tasmania
Geelong
Wollongong
Canberra

Plus

2 x Victorian State league teams

2 x NSW State League teams

I like your confidence, but I really hope you're thinking 25-50 years into the future...

Edited by dale1878: 15/1/2011 06:24:17 PM

Joffa will say anything so that historic clubs are left out, for him to allow 4 clubs in his model is massive

How can you say that NSWPL clubs are historic? What about clubs like Adamstown Rosebuds (1889), Balgownie Rangers (1883), West Wallsend (1891)? The oldest NSWPL club is Sutherland, but I bet Olympic fans don't consider them "historic".

Right now I don't care. Just want a Western Sydney A-League club.

There's a large amount of fans who aren't part of the Sydney FC fanbase, but aren't part of the fanbase for the ethnic clubs.

There's also people who would prefer WS to move forward starting with a team that represents the whole of WS, not just a certain ethnicity.

An FFA Cup won't help that.

An FFA cup open to all clubs would require it to be state based first and foremost. There was already in the past a system like this called the continental cup in NSW which was knockout based. The continental cup had tiered stages.

For example, A-League would be the highest.

State wide
In NSW our divisions/comps are structured like this,

Levels,

1. NSW Premier League
2. Super League
3. 1st Division State League
4. 2nd Division State League
5. Local association Premier League

First phase,
The first phase would comprise of teams from levels 4 and 5 in knockout phase.

Second phase
The second phase would be winners phase 1 V teams from level 3.

Third phase
The third phase would be winners phase 2 V teams from level 2.

Fourth phase
The fourth phase would be winners phase 3 V teams from level 1.

Fifth Phase
The fifth phase would be winners phase 4 V teams from level A-League

The sixth phase now moves to 2 winners in each state. 8 states leaves 16 teams left to play off in a knockout.

Well thats the general guist of my idea of an FFA cup which is open to all sides. Each state would hold their own phases then move to Australia wide knockout when each state has 2 teams left which = 16 team Australia wide knockout. When it reaches Australia wide to reduce travel cost first round would comprise of sat TAS V VIC, SA V WA, QLD V NT, NSW V ACT etc.

As for a second tier A-League competition it simply boils down to whatever clubs have the dollars. Regional would not work as opening up second tier to regions that do not have the cash to be competitive is a waste of time and they simply would not be competitive.

Given the vast size and costs of travel to ship teams around Australia in a second tier would not be viable to many clubs at all.

Entry to Second tier A-League should be based on strength and dollars of clubs in each state that can afford it.

well said mate i rate this guy

high praise indeed

I am a strong believer in Competitive Federalism and freedom of movement for clubs at State level.

Clubs like the Goulburn Strikers have shown to have benifited playing in other state FA's comps, so why can't the Canberra FC and Belconnen play in the NSWPL!
Sure it will turn NSWPL into a defacto 2nd div which would be a good thing (if FNSW could poach Sth Melb,MK,Bstrickers,ACity even better). This will no doubt piss off other state but who gives a shit about that that (maybe they would actually start having to compete with each other for once, so that the clubs and fans alike can start getting a better deal from their FA's.)If they don't like compete FFS!!

This is how the system is supposed to work and it has kept Australia prosperous for the last 200+ years.

maybe we should make it into an issue on 442, we want a canberra side in the NSWPL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFA cup is a must - A-league teams come in at 32 teams level, straight knockout. the other 21 teams need to qualify in their region so currently would need 21 non-HAL teams as an example something like - NSW - 6,VIC - 5, QLD - 4,WA - 2, SA - 2,TAS - 1, ACT-1.

LIke to see an A2 League with equal numbers to HAL so about 12 teams(West Sydney to come in sooner or later) Made up of regional sides and state league teams if possible stick to the east coast for travel reasons, no promotion/relegation for 10 years or so.

teams
Canberra
South Coast
Tassie
Geelong or a regional VIC team
Sunshine Coast
4 NSWPL
3 VPL

That would come at the expense of another team though, so I am sure that will put some off-side :) If SOFC was the loser from such a decision, there would be uproar from you.

Canberra deserves a team in the HAL, or the NSWPL as a worst case scenario, but the powers that be obviously do not agree.

NSW would need to include both FNSW and Northern NSW Federation teams, so it will be interesting to see the breakdown in how that is organised.

The 2nd tier of the HAL is unlikely for a long time to come, especially now the WC bid was lost. Its time to make sure the fundamentals of the existing HAL are strengethened, then we can look elsewhere. It could take a decade to get that right.

Unfortunately, it would be state federations and the FFA that would stop this. I would think that clubs from other state federations (Eg Canberra) would not be permitted to compete in NSW. However in saying this, wasn't a Tassie team playing in VPL at one stage. Can anying one confrim this?


But for football to develope further in the smaller state federations thier top leagues should feed into the larger states eg TAS -> VIC, ACT -> FNSW

All for an open cup. And one day a 2nd tier that can support itself.

Hopefully promo & relegation can happen before 2025.

it all hinges on the TV deal.

Joffa but what if i had for you 8 clubs that could support themselves in a pro comp with half the salary cap of the a-league, what would you say to that?

Name the clubs

Edited by joffa: 24/1/2011 08:08:33 PM

THESE Clubs could run a budget at $2m per annum is that enough your majesty?

Name the clubs

ok so we got 8 clubs, that could run $2m budgets, they would need to be able to get 4-6k crowds and would have to have own stadiums or good long term deals, must be bale to get $500k a year in sponsorship.

What type of media coverage would there be final questions before i name

name the clubs

Clubs that meet the criteria are:

South Melbourne FC
Marconi Stallions FC
Sydney United FC
Melbourne Knights FC
Wollongong Wolves FC
Sydney Olympic FC
Brisbane Strikers

Now there all the clubs rip roar and ready to go but for the 8th you could test a:

Canberra, Gippsland, Geelong, Second Adeliade team, etc

You said you had 8 clubs, and yet you have only named 7, could you please name the eighth club.



Edited by joffa: 24/1/2011 08:57:26 PM

BWE

Bonnyrigg White Eagles.

So you're saying that these 8 teams could survive in a pro comp on half the salary cap of the A-League...

South Melbourne FC
Marconi Stallions FC
Sydney United FC
Melbourne Knights FC
Wollongong Wolves FC
Sydney Olympic FC
Brisbane Strikers
Bonnyrigg White Eagles.

My question to you is...what would be the point?

Edited by joffa: 24/1/2011 10:08:13 PM

100%

we are you joffa?

you cant have EVERY club in australia involved the cup would take 10 years to get to the final.....premier league and super league is enough...............

I'm not so sure about that, although I do take your point, still I would like to see it open to all....at least as many as practical.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question.

i gave you 8 clubs whats your question???

should we not start by making the a-league have teams from u12s and up. Also introducing a reserve league wouldn't be bad so the youth league players can say just be u20s or 18s. Then the players coming back from injury or not picked in the squad that are not under that age play in the reserves.The FFA cup is a very good idea and i would like to see teams from all across Australia. The there is the question of an FFA Youth Cup.

The FA Cup Has every Club in England

yeah but you can drive from one end of england to the other in a matter of hours, try that in australia

From todays Advertiser:

Not a bad effort from the FFA, but it would be nice if HAL clubs were not exempt from paying training development fees and also it would be nice if the fee within Australia was higher.

The Draw would of course be regionalised for early rounds. But how many soccer clubs are there in Australia anyway? Dose any one have figures for this?

Around 400, IIRC.

So in comparision. 2009-10 FA Cup had 762 entrants Base on the populations of England and Australia, this would equate to around 330 for an Australia cup. Thus a FFA Could be done in 9 or 10 Rounds.

Joffa you ran away???

No way only 400. There's close to 200 clubs in the FFV alone, and that doesn't include amateur teams, Geelong, Gippsland, Goulburn Valley, Ballarat and the half dozen clubs from the Sunraysia league and everyone else I've forgotten.

There's 108 top-flight clubs, if you count the HAL.

Tier one: HAL (10)
T2: NSWPL (12), VPL (12)
T3: QSL (11), WAPL (12), SAPL (10)
T4: NNSWPL (8), ACTPL (10), Tas (north + south - 19), NT (north + central - 14)

RIGHT! So here's my magical FFA Cup plan!
Each state league plays off amongst themselves in unseeded, knock-out tournaments.

The following amount of places shall be given to each state league:

NSWPL - 6
VPL - 6

QSL - 2
WAPL - 2
SAPL - 2
NNSWPL - 2
TAS (combined) - 2

ACTPL - 1
NT (combined) - 1

This makes a 24-team pool, representative (in my opinion) of the strength of each respective league.

These 24 teams then play against each other, again in unseeded one-leg knockout matches, with the games to be played at the smaller of the two stadia, regardless of the teams' relative strengths or histories.

Over two rounds, this 24-team pool is reduced to 6 teams.

At this point, the 10 Australian A-League teams enter the competition, raising the number of teams to 16, and producing an even number of teams going towards the final. From this, there are four further matches in order to win the FFA Cup.

From this formula, there are two major issue raised: one, being the length of the tournament for clubs in the state leagues outside the NSWPL and VPL; and two, the timing of each round, as well as the semi finals and final.

In developing this tournament model, I was fully aware of the disparity between the Cup runs of teams from ACT and the NT compared to the NSWPL and VPL. As the two major state leagues in Australia, NSW and Victoria are clearly the second tier of football. They have produced the majority of NSL winners, and are home to the largest and wealthiest clubs. Because of this, they deserve to be rewarded with more preliminary places in the FFA Cup, from which teams in these competitions can further engage with the FFA and modern mainstream football community.

In regards to the amount of games played by each team to reach the final, it will obviously be harder for smaller clubs in outer leagues to make the final rounds of the competition: teams such as those in Canberra or Darwin would be playing in 11 games if they were to reach the final. My reasoning for this nuance is that for a club to pay for travel all over the country seven times for upwards of 20 people would be a huge toll on the club and the FFA's finances. If only one club from Canberra and the NT have to venture on this odyssey, it limits the spending of less well-off clubs such as those mentioned.

Similarly, as FNSW is well-known for it's financial standing, funding ventures of this magnitude for the six teams that qualify to the second preliminary section would not be an issue. As well as drawing funding from their governing body, the six clubs would be somewhat self-sufficient and could pay the majority of their own transport and accomodation costs.

Relating to the second point of contention - the timing of the tournament - I foresee the sectional knockout rounds being played from April to August, and the second preliminary fixtures being played from August into October. This would allow a flow-on effect, with interest piquing as the A-League season commences.

The next four rounds would be played as such:
Round of 16 - 2nd week of November
Round of 8 - last weekend of November
Semi final - first weekend of January
Final - weekend BEFORE Australia Day

Playing the final on Australia Day so early would be foolish, as Australians are wrapped up in their pseudo-love of cricket on our National Day. In time, moving the fixture to Australia Day would be feasible, but would only be advised after several successful seasons of this competition.

:lol: :-({|= :lol: ](*,)

not a man to answer

I write a 600-word blueprint for this competition, and you go chasing Joff?

You, sir, are an idiot.

what are you talking about

and were is this joffa dog?

Do you actually read these forums? As in, do you observe the squiggles on your screen, and realise that, by putting all the squiggles together in a certain order, they form the base of non-verbal human communication?

Go back to page 3, to the bottom of the posts, and read my essay.
Think about it.
Tell me what you think, not that I care.

And stop chasing Joffa: he won't take your bait. It makes you look like the dog, and Joffa is the master.

he asked a questions i answered it now the litte f%g is running away

I am waiting for you to answer my question?

what is your question???????????????????????????????????????????????????

There you go, I'll hold your hand and show you the question. Do you need me to answer it for you, bubba? Do you need a bib for all the shit you talk? Oh dear, little Ultra is struggling.

You are one messed up person. What the point of you living?

Are you serious? are you that messed up?

do you even care about football?

you are the reason the a-league is dying

Firstly, I'm not going to bite.
Secondly, I'm not messed up, and you obviously aren't fluent in sarcasm, nor patronising.
Thirdly, If I didn't care, why would I be on this forum? A FOOTBALL forum? Theorising and figuring out potential solutions to our sport's current worries.

So lets put aside your refusal or inability to answer my question for just a second...could you explain how this club in its current format could do as you claim.I believe you mentioned a budget of $2 million per annum.



Edited by joffa: 29/1/2011 03:02:20 PM

In the Wolves' defence, they were the closest out of the three bids for HAL 2011-12 to reaching franchise status. They have a kit manufacturer, feeder team, stadium, council and business support, and a sponsorship from DHL in waiting. They should be the 13th HAL team, IMHO.

Budget for second tier feasibility for the 8 clubs named above

Income

Season Pass Sales
500 season passes @ $250 = $125,000

Ticket Sales
average crowds of 3,500
Adult
$15 per ticket @2250 = $33,750
Concession/Pensioner
$8 per ticket @500 = $4,000
Children
$0 per ticket @ 750 = $0.00

Total Ticket Revenue
$37,750 @ 7 home games = $264,250

Merchandise = $10,000

Canteen Revenue
7 Home Games @ $30,000 per home game = $210,000

Corporate Box Sales
15 sales @ $7,500 = $112,500

Sponsorship

Main Sponsor = $250,000
Remaining Sponsors
All small and large companies underneath main sponsor = $400,000

NB - every year in the NSL Olympic raised from 800k to 1m in sponsorship.

Income from all Juniors, canteens, and all the rest
When you have over 2,000 kids under you club = $275,000

Annual Ball
800 people @ $150 ph = $120,000 minus expenses = $75,000

Extra Income would be derived from, extra games as having all the same cost but only playing 7 homes games is crazy but thats the format so be it, but with cup games and friendlies extra ticket sales, plus player transfers and community events.

I have not included one cent from the FFA as they currently put $1.2m into a-league clubs i did not even allow for half of that, i have no taken into account a media deal for radio, television and so on.

So total income on fair figures when say fair either the clubs have a proved track record in getting these crowds or a proven track record in acquiring this type of sponsorship of getting that many people to a function they hold.

TOTAL INCOME - $1,721,750.00
(please note only 7 home games )

Thank you very much

If you want to get into expenses let me know sweetie

yeah I agree , Wollongong definitely deserve to be in either the A-League or a B-League but he tried to say they could move in right now with a $2 million operating budget...it isn't quite that simple.

So you're talking extra sponsors, extra attendances, extra income....you said they could do it right now....your talking budgets and projeted income....that is not what you claimed in your earlier post.

it would be a new comp so ofcorse it would be a new budget but everything would be the same

sponsors are there crowds are there what are you getting at your wrong champ admit it

these clubs are ready to stand up and run with it so whats your point?

but does the ffa want to grow football in this country or kill it?

Olympic and these other clubs have the facilities, the fans and the sponsors they just dont have the comp

Does anybody seriously believe that Alex produced the financial feasability post, he's bordering on retarded at best. I hardly imagine he'd be able to muster a post without spelling errors and with correct mathematics in his figures.

So really what you are saying is any existing club is rip roar and ready to go?

I'm sure if I asked Benjamin or one of the other South Melbourne guys they could demonstrate right now how they would or wouldn't be "rip roar ready to go" anyone can talk projected income....interesting how you make no mention of projected expenses.

I call bullshit. So you're saying in 1977 your club raised that figure and in 2004 your club raised that figure yet in 1979 you were relegated.


now I don't have an opinion on your club one way or the other but $800,000 was worth a lot more money in 1977 than it was in 2004.

deflection the tool used by people who cannot admit the truth

you are truely a moron

:roll: Like you don't use the tool that is deflection either.

i give him respect answer honestly and because the findings of ultragirl's report he doesnt like he talks shit

no wonder why the ffa is going no were with people like him involved

Ultragirl, if you wish to have a debate I am all for it but so far in this thread you have called me a dog, a moron and a litte f%g now you may indeed consider this acceptable behaviour but I do not. ayou are welcome to disagree with me at will, but the next insult to anyone may very well have dire consequences.

Do you understand?

your lack of respect and deflection made me say those things, were I am from we say it as it is.

Now what part of the FFA are you working in and when will the model be implented as it will work

i never said I didn't think these figures weren't viable or practical...in fact I have been outspoken in my desire for a B-league for quite some time...but these figures do not support the point you made earlier.

please ban him/her Joffa

Tell me about expenses then.

i asked the same question about expenses, I didn't bother pointing out that he is still short of his $2 million figure.

Not bad at all...it looks like Australia day will be the day of the final though.