The whole MVFC fans fighting each other was brought about by Sydney fans who are incapable of distinguishing who the police are and who the supporters are, when videos of this incident went up many of the Sydney uploaders named it or described it as MVFC fans fighting, but it wasnt.

The two large crowds you list are really counter productive to your argument. Its non logical. If you HAD large crowds, which have lessened to the point where you are RELYING on your current supporter base to keep a decent average, it becomes more important to engage those loyal fans to ensure a good relationship. You state yourself that the % of NT fans compared to total crowd is getting bigger as times goes by, but this leads you to think the club should not listen to those fans? Or do you think its more important to try and engage with fans who have attended "2" matches, instead of those who have attended seasons, then perhaps you sit on the side of "consumer over supporter" side of the spectrum.

You make an assumption that the lowering crowds are based of the NT violence and "Ultra" behavior, yet this is not based off any fact. If you claim you haven't, as i believe you just did, what relevance does crowds lowering from a season 2 high to current levels have to do with a thread about the NT issue? Why do you believe they ruined the opportunity? or who were you stating the spoiled victory's hold on the melbourne sporting market?

I'm not a member of the NT and i would prefer to sit at the other end anytime, but anyone who attends a victory match can see the stupidity of security. Until the A-league stops treating fans like potential criminals, they have a huge problem. At the end of the day, i have never felt unsafe at a football match, but i have been in areas surrounded by mass security that would make you think someone was about to be killed. My aim goal, is the best thing for the club, which is safety and fair security for all fans in the stadium.

No. MVFC supporters do not fight each other. God knows why this is brought up.

This particular incident was sparked by MVFC supporters reacting to unfair, heavy handed treatment by security & police. Again. Reactions to reactions to reactions are vicious circles that we need to get out of.

It's NT spokesmen who make the claim that they are ultra important to the future of MV.

I'm merely stating that in season 2, MV were able to fill Etihad for a regular season game, and clearly, were able to do it without the assistance of NT.

From that perspective, MV management would view it as counter-productive to pander to such a group.

mate that you've resorted to using a one off poor crowd figures instead of the season averages shows the lack of confidence you have in your ratio theory.

As i have said three or four times now, that theory is unrelated to both our target groups and the apparent problems in the NT and SE. Hence there’s no need to further discuss it.

I'm suprised this thread is still going. Felixx_17 I missed your post. Apologies for the delay in posting a response.

This episode was 12 months ago yesterday and speaks to the problem. Pictures/video speak more than words, and all the bolded points are evident bar the "abusing your club" - not really relevant as it was in Sydney. IIRC this episode was sparked by a fight between MVFC supporters.

[youtube]MX2kH3ANzgY[/youtube]

Clearly MV management disagree (in terms of the importance of the NT), and I am merely backing up their stance.

The NT are seeking special privileges, and MV management is correct to not come to the party on such negotiations.

Plenty in the supporter base would happily see the NT disappear off the face of this Earth.

I hear Heart are looking for members.

Edited by Mister Football: 15/2/2011 04:26:11 PM

And the weather conditions in Melbourne during the drought were different to those in the recent flood weather. To make a credible point you need to stick with the averages in respective seasons and over those the composition of Victory support comprised a smaller percentage of active supporters in seasons 3, 4 and 5 compared to season 2 and only achieved relative parity this year. I also severely doubt that a) a quarter of those 8000 fans were NT and b) you were even at the game or watched it to be able to make even a vaguely educated guess at it.

Again, why the fuck are you making stuff up?

I think the real importance of the NT is as a litmus test for how current policies are likely to impact the broader victory fanbase. A good example is how the HEM suffocated the terraces to an extent by limiting freedom of movement which was then replicated more broadly when the similar set seating for all members was implemented this season.

Source?

I don't think it's unfair to expect to be treated as a human being no matter what kind of supporter you are.

MV's lowest ever attendance was recorded this year - the lowest ever - at a brand spanking new stadium!

That was around 8,000.

NT would be at least one quarter of that - do you reckon NT would be one quarter of a 50,000 strong crowd?

Of course not.

Which gets me back to the my main point, that the NT isn't the most important element of the MV supporter base, which is what they are making out.

It still is minuscule both areas have shrunk but that doesn't your initial point any less right.

Edited by kapow!: 15/2/2011 03:31:43 PM

Look i noticed that but even if that bit is wrong which it clearly it is, i don’t think it's terribly important in relation to his main point which is policy shouldn't be aimed at the minority but the majority or the target groups. The club doesn’t exist with only active supporters.

Doesn't matter how big you reckon they were - as a percentage of crowds of 40,000 to 50,000, they were miniscule.

That's the point.

Yes, at the end of all that, I didn't make the point that you ascribed to me, I simply gave some verifiable figures, that don't gel with the NT claim that they are the most important group of supporters to MV.

I'm pretty confident that both the MV management and the FFA would think otherwise - and thus the current impasse.

I took this comment to mean exactly that:



You then followed it up with:




and only then did you move onto the point in your previous post:



I don't think any reasonable supporter can disagree with your last post, all crowd policy should be aimed at target groups not specialised groups and the a-league needs to try to re-engage the melbourne sporting public, not shrink back, it's difficult to do however. Perhaps those 40-50,000 crowds were just outliers and the true support level is lower.

My point only was that if there is an abuse of power lets get it sorted, that is different issue to FFA/a-league policy and target groups. Unfortunately the occasional single-minded active fan and the craig foster types with ulterior motives mix the issues up.

No idea what you're talking about mate, you're just making assumptions about facts that are readily accessible to any Victory fan who has followed the team for a few years.

In season 2 the NT was, at a conservative estimate, 2-3 times the size it is today with more coming to big events like those two matches. This was with an average gate of ~27k over the regular season. NT has roughly halved, overall attendance has roughly halved... if anything, from the colloquial knowledge picked up from attending basically every Victory home game since season 2, i'd suggest that the NT diminished much more rapidly than the rest of the Victory fanbase and is probably on par (percentage-wise) with where it was in season 2, if not slightly less.

Seriously, if you don't have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about and have to make up 'facts' why bother entering into the conversation?

P.S. I really don't give a fuck about the debate going on in here, i just hate brazenly idiotic attempts to present wild assumptions as facts.

I don't have to support that point because I never made it.

I said that in season two, MV hosted two games at Etihad that attracted crowds of 50,000 and 40,000 respectively, and at that time, the NT suppoerter groups would have been miniscule in number.

So when they make out that they are important to the future succes of the club - I doubt it.

The NT now represents a very large percentage of what is a dwindling attendance.

People are free to work out the ratios and form their own conclusions.

I'll only say that MV is right in not giving any priority to a group who publicly claim to draw inspiration from European and Sth American ultras.

It's not too much to ask for less swearing and those video's do not support your case at all.

by the police that there would be zero tolerance on any swearing That whats pisses me off though, policeman saying no swearing, seriously What The F***. zero tolerence on swearing what bullshit.

We were strictly told prior to that game by the police that there would be zero tolerance on any swearing. Obviously we didn't take any notice, but not one of us was evicted. You do get the feeling though that they evict one person to try and make an example out of them, but when others keep doing it, they decide that its not going to make any difference and let it go.

True, but these are just the videos captured not everything is video recorded. As a teen when i go to games with my friends we 'swear' loudly and give stick to everyone in a joking, funny way and the police dont bother us. Obviously we dont rip flares and start riots but i do think the police/secruity do target the NT. ex. We i was at the adelaide game(the 4-1 game)one of the guys standing around in the northen terrece started a F*** off united chant just after flores scored the first and two secruity guards went over to him and talked for about 30 seconds and then after excessive arguments escorted him out of the ground, which then 'ironically' started a we are not criminals chant. Then going on, a few minutes later after Allsop missed another chance and a guy in his early 20's(sitting a few rows behind me; [me] was sitting behind the NT) started swearing his head off at allsop and the secruity guard next to him just looked on as if nothing had happend. So really, where is the line between 'friendly banter ie. swearing and starting chants ie. being ejected for that, and ripping flares and starting punch ons...................................

Are you serious? These videos seem to show policemen acting quite unagressively trying to get one guy to leave, despite morons chanting 'all cops are bastards' and 'all cops are f@$kwits'. We then see the odd illegal flare go off, but still not a sign of aggression from the police. We then see and hear some drunken yob swearing at a security guard.

I'm less convinced than before if this is the best evidence of police brutality you have? What happened to the kids having their flags stolen, 12 year old girls being threatened, people being bashed?

Sorry dude, but not really. I watched each video in its entirety and all I saw was one guy being put in a choke hold / headlock by a police person and another guy with a cop under each arm being dragged down the stairs (with his feet dragging along). The headlock wasn't a good look, that's for sure. But its a far cry from the images I expected to see after reading some of the allegations made by NT fans.

What I DID see was bottles/projectiles being thrown at police, flares being ripped at the most inappropriate times and verbal abuse of police officers / security. I'm not having a go here - just stating what I saw on the vid. And those actions are pretty hard to defend.

If there is brutality and intimidation from the police like has been alleged... well, that is serious shit. Like, jobs/careers on the line kind of serious.

There is a real 'Us v. Them' mentality amongst the NT/MV crew at present, and (from my distant perspective) it smells bad. You guys have gotta understand it's very hard for a neutral to accept that a VicPol officer would commit an unprovoked, violent act in public view. I just can't believe they'd be so dumb.

Here's how Joe Public (and the FFA) could possibly see it:
Large group of young men who engage in anti-social behaviour like swearing, throwing missiles and lighting flares are claiming that they are being unfairly treated and assaulted/intimidated without provocation by Police/Security.

This doesn't mean the NT shouldn't get a voice - everyone deserves a fair go. But they seem to be making it hard for themselves. I'd love to see some allowances made by both sides so that a happy medium can be found. Then MV fans can lead the way again.

I have no idea why you respond to this mong. Relevance is not his strong suit and his posts lack internal logic.](*,)

Wrong,
[youtube]wImmPzbu_xY[/youtube]
[youtube]jq0uqcO9p0g[/youtube]
[youtube]IogykB9TkGA[/youtube]
There you go, convinced yet?

According to 442 posters on here they do, although it can be dangerous to use that as reliable source of information.



They are separate issues. The only types who think the active fans are our target audience are probably a small percentage of the active fans themselves and the craig foster types who really just has an agenda to get his mate kimon as ‘a football person’ into the management. The majority of fans and the FFA all realise that families are the target audience and hence policy is designed towards encouraging their attendance.

The issue here is mistreatment of supporters by security and if there are consistent claims that this is occurring then it at the very least deserves looking into.

I will add that you haven't supported your inital point which was that the NT had turned away the 40-50,000 crowds.

No doubt.

How would you feel if you were thrown onto the ground with your face mashed into the bitumen for the actions of someone else, though?

I've already said that the South End do not appear to attract the same issues and problems as the NT, so I am not saying there is no place for active support.

I urge people to read the PFA report back in 2002 for establishing a professional soccer comp (their words).

http://www.pfa.net.au/fileadmin/user_upload/_temp_/APL_For_the_Fans.pdf

Somewhere in there you will note the three primary markets:

1. young males aged 18 to 29

2. families with children playing soccer

3. those born overseas (predominantly males aged over 45)

I'm not sure what kind of mix the PFA was planning on, but it's clear to me that if you want crowds of 30k+, then you have to attract fans from across the three groups, and you definitely can't have a situation where one sub-group is trying to dictate to the club about how they should be running things in a very confronting manner.

Look i understand your point about the game being aimed at the mainstream, something i've pointed out on here a lot with regards to issues such as the FFA cup, but there is no link to the NT. It’s more likely that the poor performance of season 3 was a lost opportunity for the club to capitalise on the success of season 2. Certainly they should be looking at season 2 and asking what's different to now.




I asked the question about the south end, apparently there is an issue there as well. There will always be idiots who are active supporters with the selfish attitudes that you're suggesting, just as there is bound to be security guards who enjoy having a power play over the supporters. I just hope that if there is an issue that the club gets it sorted ASAP. I don't think anyone would disagree that ALL policy should be aimed at the mainstream. If a couple of idiot active supporters think otherwise, it would be wrong to think they represent all the active supporters.

The longer the discussions go, the weirder the claims become.

At the South End, full of active supporters, absolutely no one has a story to tell involving police brutality.

In the meantime, on another forum, someone from the NT claims that people get chucked out for merely doing the North End/South End chant.

I was incredulous about this claim, I pressed further, he swore black and blue that it was th truth and had happened more than once.

Now, come on all Victory fans - who here honestly believes that someone is going to get chucked out for getting involved in an innocuous chant like North End/South End?

I don't believe if for a minute.

And these blokes are holding the club to ransom, want to negotiate with management as equals, putting forward ridiculous claims like that.