As opposed to the sage like wisdom, perfect objectivity and flawless intellectual insight of you lefties ? Sounds about right, always claiming the moral and intellectual high ground but screwing things up.

Happy for you to argue any of my points as posted above.

See if you can argue more than one point at a time though. RC's MO seems to be cherry-pick the smallest anomaly and run with that completely missing the forest for the trees.

In case you need help how's this one for starters.

Explain to me how the direct action plan is a good idea without resorting to the Labour party's position. (I.E. Don't say the Libs is bad but at least it's not as bad as Labour's.) Actually tell me why it's a good idea.

Away you go.





Edited by munrubenmuz: 13/5/2014 02:40:58 PM

:lol: rusty, I'm a Centrist. It's the reason I'm a swinging voter. ATM there isn't any centralist party to vote for in Australia, merely incompetence.

I never claimed to have a background in economics etc. My professional background is insurance, incomplete educational background is science. I don't post much in this thread because there is so little actual argument posted, mostly it is invective.

I should summon Hoff in here.

-PB

Pls do.

Same. The only real central party is the Democrats and they're all but dead.

-PB

We're all centrists too. :lol: I'm a swinging voter, I voted Labor in 2007 because I believed in Rudd's vision and hype, regrettably. Both Labor and Liberal are by and large centrist parties, with a left and right slant. Any more centrist than that would lead to indecision and splitting hairs while we all squabble trying to figure out the perfect balance between pragmatism and social harmony. The best decision is one that's made, even if it ain't perfect.

I don't think the current government has done anything to warrant being called incompetent, they haven't even been able to pass anything through the senate yet. At least wait until their policies have been tried and tested in the real world before writing them off as failures. That's what a person claiming to be centrist would do.

Not that having a degree in economics helps.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/modern-economists-are-clever-with-numbers-but-way-out-of-tune-20140418-36w84.html

80% of economists (2/3's of them PHD's) couldn't get one of the most fundamental concepts of economics correct when asked at a seminar.

Not that I am claiming any sort of mastery of economics. I just thought it was interesting that even economists struggle at times.

Not really, Labour in its current form is center-right heading more right and the Liberals are far right already.

Only Central party left is the Democrats who are dead, Greens to the far left.

PUP/Katter are still fairly central but moreso right depending on specific policy.

-PB

In terms of social policy, both have gone far more conservative than they ever were and is the most concerning thing for me. I can't pretend like my vote matters though so my vote swinging is pointless, Christopher Pyne could take a dump (literally rather than the metaphoric one he's doing now) on the doorstep of every family in my electorate and he'd still get voted in :lol:

Edited by mcjules: 13/5/2014 04:21:40 PM

Edited by mcjules: 13/5/2014 04:21:57 PM

you mean when that opinion disagrees with yours

Neg, both parties are centre-right. Liberal's left minded members are at best centrist, and whilst Labor has some true left-minded members they are in the vast minority and the party body has lurched to the right of centre in recent times.

There exists a gaping void between the centre and the left that no party occupies at present. The Greens are slowly trying to move there (or to a position near enough to snag the voters who prefer that alignment), with varying degrees of benefit/success, but are hamstrung by being a young party hamstrung by perceptions resulting from their fringe origins.

Major reason I voted Lib in the senate re run over here. I would actually like to see what a party can do then just see everything blocked. At least we will see either success or failure which would most likely cause a govt change at the next election.

Pretty much this. Both the Labor and Liberal parties are filled to the brim with conservative Christian white private school boys. They all come from the same demographic. The Liberal party is of course on the whole more religiously conservative, but the Labor party are still full of them, like Rudd

What we lack is a true secular centrist party. The closest to this are the Greens, who probably still sit a little too far to the left for most people's liking

Unlike the reasoned and well-thought out arguments the Leftists provide...

The whole idea sucked from the outset. No one was ever going to wear the cost of the tax it was always going to filter down. They should have just taxed us if they needed the money.

Imagine if a business found a way to pay less of the tax by reducing emissions, for example by using more energy efficient equipment. They would then be able to undercut their competitors on cost and gain more business :o

Crazy theory ;)

That is a very black and white view of the situation. I am all for reducing remissions but in real life it is not as simple as that.

It may be but what is patently ridiculous is to say to a big polluter "job's right, we're planting trees to offset your emissions and, nudge, nudge, wink wink, here's the best bit, Johnny Taxpayer is paying for it."

"Pass me that Cuban Mattias."

"Jawohl Herr Hockey."

Young Australians to face six-month wait for unemployment benefits


Budget says those under 30 will have to work 25 hours a week to receive Newstart or Youth Allowance

Bridie Jabour   


theguardian.com, Tuesday 13 May 2014 19.31 AEST   


People under 30 will receive Newstart and Youth Allowance for only six months of the year which they will spend undertaking 25 hours a week on Work for the Dole programs.


The Abbott government’s first budget revealed job seekers applying for Newstart or Youth Allowance, who have not been previously employed, will face a six-month waiting period of no income support before they are eligible for payments by undertaking 25 hours a week in the Work for the Dole program.

Once they have spent six months on the program, they will lose income support for another six months unless they undertake training or study.

People under 25 will not be eligible for the dole and instead will have to apply for Youth Allowance which is about $100 less a fortnight. Newstart and Youth Allowance will also be frozen for the next three years. The six monthly payment system will take effect from July next year.

The current Newstart rate is $510.1 a fortnight which will equate to about $10.20 an hour for their work in the Work for the Dole program. The maximum Youth Allowance payment is $414.40 a fortnight which equates to $8.29 an hour in the program.

In the six months applicants for Newstart and Youth Allowance do not receive income support, they will be required to undertake government-funded job seeking programs.

Newstart applicants will receive one month of income support for every year they worked before applying for the dole and exceptions to the six months of no income support include parents, young people unable to work more than 30 hours a week, part-time apprentices and Disability Employment Service clients.

People who refuse jobs will also be penalised with their income payments withdrawn.

“The government’s welfare changes pare back the widening gap between community expectations and what it can – or should – realistically do. Individual responsibility should be a driving force for building a stronger and more prosperous Australia,” the Social Services Budget guide said.

People are currently eligible for Newstart from 22 years old and that will be increased to 25.

From July 2014 job seekers who have been unemployed for more than a year will have to undertake 15 hours on the Work for the Dole program. This will increase to 25 hours a week from July 2015.

All job seekers who refuse work “without any good reason” according to the budget papers will lose their payment for eight weeks with only one chance to waive the penalty by doing additional activities or proving financial hardship.

The one strike and your out for eight weeks approach will save the government $20.9m over four years.

The phased approach to the Work for the Dole programs will cost $14.9m over two years.

Newstart and Youth Allowance could face further changes with the government signalling in the papers there will be further “structural reform” to the welfare system after reviews which are currently underway are completed.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/13/young-australians-to-face-six-month-wait-for-unemployment-benefits

Of course it's not that simple but so is the idea that it was going to have no benefit and the cost was going to just filter down to us and cost us money.

The carbon tax was only partially implemented, there's a lot of people passing judgement on something that was purely at a transition stage.

Tone droppin dem budget bombs.

Straya going down the toilet.

-PB

I think the problem with the left is socialism is more or less dead and not seen as a viable economic alternative, and Labor has shifted centre in terms of economic policy, supporting a free market (albeit with stronger government control) but differentiating themselves in terms of social policy, wanting to appear progressive on issues like gay marriage, refugees, etc. I think the new left/right paradigm is based on those social issues rather than dead economic systems and we should update our thinking to reflect modern times rather than the cold war era.

The problem with the greens is they are ideologically communist and you can always sense their disdain and disgust for the bourgeois and capitalist system, so as long as they are supporting destructive, outdated dead economic systems that have failed the reality test they will never shed the 'loony fringe' tag.

Defence spending up by 9.6 billion..

Ooi, and not to promote socialism, but do you believe capitalism is actually a "successful" system? To be extremely simplistic I'd suggest that rather than being a good system it just does well what socialism does poorly and vice-versa. A system that, perhaps, persists due to human nature more than academic merit.

Unfortunately (perhaps due to capitalism :P) the value of philosophy has deteriorated to the point where we are beyond viably conceiving a more reasonable societal system.

Also, my take on the budget is that they have maintained the status quo for the everyman, allowing them to discreetly take those living on the poverty line out back to be shot whilst the nation breathes a sigh of relief and goes "could have been worse for me, I guess." Meanwhile, they surreptitiously fist-bump big business behind their back.

Fantastic news about the new money into medical research

What an awful budget.

Target students, young, elderly and sick to get the budget on track.

$50k for having a baby? What a fucking joke.

Business tax rate cut?

There really IS no viable party to vote for in this country.

I hope everyone under the age of 30 is lubing up, because that budget fucked us hard. Middle-agers are relatively unscathed, while Boomers get given more free shit.

And to top it off, it's a $20 fine if you abstain.