But as Muz says, it drives down the standard of living for the countries they go to. Itstead of lifting everyone up, it drags everyone down.

Having been to Germany recently they are already struggling with the influx of Turkish migrants in regional towns.

These towns need people who can function. They do not need unskilled people who cannot speak a language. I'm not against these people ftr. It's just an observation.

The UK thing is a little more complicated with the EU open border policy meaning there are 10's of thousands of legal Hungarians, Romanians and Poles all making their way to England.

It's OK though, it's happening to Australia too. Shitloads of engineering design and drafting work is now being outsourced to India, Sri Lanka, the Philippines.

Poor old steel detailers and workshop drafters are fucked. I'm not sure what the answer is there.

Most of the proposed Adani Carmichael Pt engineering design (90%) was done in India by Worley's offshoot company Aarvee Engineering.




Edited by munrubenmuz: 3/9/2015 12:30:26 PM

I contest a few of these points:

They can drive down unskilled wages in the short term. But overall the benefits to the economy far outweigh the negatives.

Better to get them in the economy earning legal wages rather than prevented from working legally. Because then they work off the books and the wages dramatically drop. If they are in the legal market, you can enforce minimum wage laws more effectively.

I would also wager that because most of the refugees are fleeing war zones a lot of them may be educated, and therefore capable of working in higher skill jobs if given the opportunity.

I think the low wage issue has as much (if not more) to do with their inability to work legally and lack of option, rather than just being willing to work for nothing.

In terms of Europe's reluctance to get involved in Syria/Libya, the US has been reluctant also. They are feeling the consequences of that - BUT there is no clear course of action. If there was military intervention, the refugee outflows may be worse!

Iraq should teach us that military intervention is not necessarily effective, and that there are so many unintended consequences.

The comment about thousands of Poles and Romanians piling into the UK has been debunked - that is tabloid fodder. There has been a net gain of people, but nothing like what is reported. The polish economy has been strong the last few years. I think there was actually a net outflow of poles from the UK after the GFC hit.

Forgot to mention the Turkish example in Germany. That has everything to do with the specifics of the guest program the germans put in place to fuel post-WW2 growth.

Wrong headed german policy created much of the issue, rather than it being due to too many unskilled foreigners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany#Integration_problems

Less than 2% of recently arrived Asylum seekers in Europe have attempted to reach England. The idea that the UK is a magnet for Asylum seekers is a myth conjured up by the tabloids.

Which is why I said this.

Japan has been sold for decades alarmist tripe that if they don't open the floodgates to immigration their country will collapse in a catastrophic heap, but they seem to be doing just fine.

Its interesting that people continually recommend propping up a seemingly impossible to sustain perpetual growth approach to the problem rather than trying to correct it or let it naturally correct itself.





An interesting video on world poverty and immigration.
[youtube]LPjzfGChGlE[/youtube]

I'm no expert in UK immigrants and the Chippy example is obviously anecdotal I did find the following articles that I found interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11454795/Campaign-to-lure-Poles-back-home-amid-fears-of-brain-drain-to-Britain.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9840059/Why-Poles-love-coming-to-Britain.html

There are around 679,000 Poles living in the UK – almost as many as the 750,000 who lives in Poland’s second city of Krakow.

and

The study by the Migration Observatory, based on analysis of Census data and the official Labour Force Survey, predicted that immigrants increased the population of England by 565,000 between 2011 and 2014.

Some 318,000 of that was from eastern European countries that have joined the EU since 2004, while almost another 50,000 were from the rest of the EU.

It means two thirds of the increase was by migrants that the Government cannot control due to EU freedom of movement rules.

Staggered to see Polish is the 2nd most spoken language in the UK ahead of Urdu and Punjabi. Had no idea. I guess because they're white they don't stand out like your Africans and Middle Eastern types.

well japans economy is up the creek and they have massive debt. but its fair to say they don't have any of problems that Europe U.S and Australia does with radical Islam

I continually find it amusing how people seem to blame host nations for social issues associated with migrants.

Blame the government for their lack of integration...... Typical BS... yawn

Because we don't already have issues with having a highly skilled/qualified workforce struggling to get work.....




Agreed but the jobs aren't there. They come in and under-cut those who do have jobs to get in and then take control of the market. Happens all the time, not just with migrant work.

Lets say we took 12,000 migrants tomorrow. Where would they get work? Why would companies choose them over Australians with a grasp of the language and culture and in most cases these days experience?



Iraq should teach us that military intervention is not necessarily effective, and that there are so many unintended consequences.
[/quote]

Case of damned if they/we do damned if they/we don't. Enter another muslim country and we're the f*cking white devil stealing resources again.

Do nothing and the arab world claims we don't give a rats.

Funny how the western world cops so much flak and yet these 'refugees' would rather travel thousands of kilometres more to get to the big bad western powers. Talk about irony.

[youtube]q99VsIec2gg[/youtube]

I may be naive on the issue but wouldn't the massive influx of migrants damage the economy? You need to process and house these people. You can't assume that all of them speak the language or have a skill. If they are entitled to permanent residency they'd be entitled to a hand out?

If its uncapped immigration who is to say 24 million people just decide to pile in, someone has to pay for these people. Wouldn't it raise taxes etc?

Its not a matter of "blaming" the host country. Its simple logic of "if you have policies A and B, then C is likely to result".

You seem to be trying to argue a moral case, I am not. There were good reasons for the policies being put in place at the time, it is in hindsight that one can see those policies were ineffective.

The whole argument of "taking jobs" is a nonsense if you understand anything about economics. Jobs are not zero sum. There is a tonne of literature out there saying that generally the net impact of immigration is that more jobs are created than people added.

And the argument of "how would we accommodate 24 million people tomorrow?" is wrong headed too, because that isn't happening. Even in Europe - they had under 300,000 people come in last year - a lot of people but for an area with a population of 500 million, not impossible to manage.

Regarding Poles in the UK, 679,000 out of 55 million is about 1.2% of the population.

I would also worry about the security risks, how do these people get vetted?

Not to sound like Tony Abbott etc haha.

-PB

A lot of these people are fleeing brutal dictators and climate change.
I cant help but thing there's an undercurrent of racism toward the migrants.
Unfortunately Europe doesnt have an Obama type leader fighting for their human rights.

Merkal seems to be fighting for them pretty hard lol.

-PB

Well yeah that's it. I've got nothing against immigrants as my family migrated (from England :lol:) buy my wife's grandad immigrated here.

There's a difference between fantasy and reality though.

There are safe Middle eastern countries in Oman, Jordan, UAE etc, I wonder why people aren't fleeing there? Or even why they aren't expected to welcome immigrants.

20 forum pages later and 4 bans the thread gets back to Australian Politics.

The likes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar are being pathetic on the issue but that doesn't mean that the west should drop down to their level. The reality of the situation is that a lot of lives are at stake and this issue needs to be addressed by Europe now, not when the Arabs decide to pull their head of their arse.

That's fair enough but the pressure should also be on Middle eastern neighbours to help out. You get the feeling the guilt trip wouldn't work on them though :lol:

the middle east doesnt have the infrastructure to accommodate these immigrants - and the searing desert heat isnt conducive to camping rough as many of them do on arrival.

First displace them with damaging environmental policies on climate change then refuse them entry to safe countries. These ring wingers have it all worked out.

Edit:'wrong thread we're going off topic.

Edited by iridium1010: 4/9/2015 06:02:34 PM

Abbott’s government now two years old but is still struggling to deliver on the promise of 2013

This story was published: 7 hours ago September 04, 2015 12:22PM

ANALYSIS

SUNDAY will mark two years since the election which made Tony Abbott Prime Minister, and six months and 26 days since he announced “Good government starts today” in a bid to keep the job.

Rarely has the distance between triumph and troubled times been so short, unless you are Kevin Rudd, the man Mr Abbott replaced with a pledge of stable administration.

Many voters, and even some of Mr Abbott’s colleagues, do not believe the promise of September 7, 2013, or the one of February 9, 2015, have been fulfilled.

It was no surprise when in 2013 the Coalition put Labor out of its six years of leadership leapfrog misery and took government with a huge majority in the House of Representatives.

Voters were not so much looking forward to a glowing Abbott future as the back of Rudd/Gillard turmoil — some of it cultivated by Mr Abbott but the bulk of ir self-inflicted.

But it did come as a shock when Mr Abbott had to defend himself against his own MPs and on February 9 this year narrowly saw off a motion for a leadership spill.

The offer of finally implementing “good government”, as if it was a casual afterthought, was given in a fearful rush by a man who described what had happened as a political “near death experience”.

The national economy is growing at just two per cent a year; in the June quarter the difference between what we earned from exports and spent on imports worsened by 41 per cent; unemployment is 6.3 per cent, a 13-year high.

The threat of political mortality lingers. A striking proof of this is the belief by some Government members is that as unhappy as the Abbott prime ministership has been, voters will refuse to elect Labor’s Bill Shorten.

Immigration Minister Peter Dutton and others have thundered against leaking colleagues for damaging the Government, ignoring there is more than enough on the public record to cause harm.

Tony Abbott has not been warmly accepted by a significant part of the electorate over the past two years but leaders don’t have to be loveable. They just have to be competent, skimpy on public arrogance, and capable of communicating.

Mr Abbott has had trouble on all three counts:

ECONOMY

The 2014 Budget was a significant and early test of the Abbott Government’s competence and it did not pass. The Coalition still gets higher rating from voters for economic management but no thanks to its first economic statement. It was introduced with trumpets blaring a Budget emergency and with penalties for households in higher health and transport expenses.

The Budget emergency didn’t last long. In fact it worsened, but the Government stopped referring to it because consumers and business had been terrified into retreat just at a time when the fall-off in jobs and revenue from the resources sector required greater economic confidence. Critics of the Government consider that reduced confidence was an element in the economy’s dangerously slow growth as reported this week.

CAPTAIN’S PICKS

Suddenly knighthoods were back and there was just one man pushing for their return, Tony Abbott. It was a substantial change to national culture done without a skerrick of public consultation. Mr Abbott wasn’t happy back in March 2014 with the widespread criticism of his unilateral move, but he wasn’t finished yet. In January 2015 he topped his announcement of 10 months previous by sending an Australian gong to Prince Philip. The furious response by Australians helped fuel the leadership showdown of February.

But it’s not just cultural issues Mr Abbott has acted without a filter. He also hit cabinet with proposals to take citizenship from terrorists. The proposal was flawed, scantily explained and — as ministers made clear — unacceptable. And it was further evidence that when Mr Abbott takes his own advice he is likely to get into trouble.

CROSS BENCH

Mr Abbott’s connection with the electorate when he was Opposition Leader didn’t survive the election. And he also wasn’t able to talk to those he relied on to dominate Parliament.

In July, 2014, the new Senate was installed with eight members on the crossbench facing the Coalition, Labor and the Greens. Prime Minister Abbott knew they could undo Government legislation but made little effort to get their votes. He snubbed them, as if dealing with independents and others was beneath him.

Social Services Minister Scott Morrison has a delicate legislative dance to perform in the Senate and he is inviting as many cross benchers as possible to partner him. He is consulting and explaining personally, and getting support. In short, he is doing a Reverse Abbott and it is working. The Senate is not a happy mix for the Government, but it’s chief purpose appears to be as an excuse for the Government failing its own agenda.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/abbotts-government-now-two-years-old-but-is-still-struggling-to-deliver-on-the-promise-of-2013/story-fn5tas5k-1227512568182

So build new housing and infrastructure like they've always done



lmao it finally happened, blaming the situation in the middle east on climate change :lol:

Edited by trueanglo: 5/9/2015 02:05:40 AM

Iraq and Syria are making a good go of it currently, its not looking all that promising

Lets supplant and eliminate those pesky European people while we're at it.