What we call the Golden Generation may not be perceived as such in 20 years time.

Why would a FFA pathway be designed to exclude players of real talent?

In Tassie we now have two players with Melbourne Heart youth team. I think there would be a consensus they were the best two players in the NTC.

There is another Tassie player who is a train on with the Canberra W League team. I think she would also be considered the best local NTC player. There may be some other good Tassie players with similar talent, but who lack the motivation to become a pro player.

In the case of this state, FFA appears to have got it right.

Mariners found Rogic because there was a few months between him winning the Nike competition and going over to the UK so I believe it was Ron Smith who contacted Arnie and got him the chance to train with them to maintain fitness before he left.

Rogic wasn't overlooked for NSWPL, he played in the ACTPL, and I would say he didn't bypass the system altogether because he did go through state teams and NTC, he just missed the final cut when it came to the AIS squad (though he did have a short term training stint with them just not as a full scholarship holder). I saw Rogic at Coffs and NTC and while he was obviously a good player, he was very ponderous and slow at times so I can understand why he wasn't selected for AIS, he wasn't even a standout in his junior state team at that time. Players like Amini, Babalj, Gameiro and Antonis were also at those tournaments and at that point in time were far superior.

This is where the FFA system lets us down compared to the past because a late developer like Rogic who wasn't a standout at 14 or 15 is going to be missed. In the past Joeys selections began at 16 and AIS at 17 so that extra year or 2 can make a big difference. Remember Bresciano didn't make a Victorian team until he was 16 and then went straight to AIS and then on to be one of our best ever. The current system would completely miss him because if you haven't made your state team by 14 its almost impossible to make a Joeys or AIS.

Decentric,

Tom Rogic won the nike second chance competition. CCM "then" took him in and developed him further.

If it wasn't for nike and ccm Tom Rogic would be just another unknown who would of got nowhere in our system.

CCM can also be credited with giving Kwabena Appiah Kubi his chance. Kwabena was languishing in nowhereland down in the second tier NSW state league. CCM gave him his chance and developed him through their NYL system and he is now signed with wanderers first team on a pro contract. Prior to CCM giving Kabsy his chance there was no reps or pathway for him. Alusine Fofonah is another player who the system was not interested in. No reps were interested in Alusine either so he went and trialled for Manchester City and was signed. Australia's first ever at 14 yrs old on 150k for 2 years (So i've been told).

These are just a few of many.

The pathway is designed to exclude players of this calibre with real talent. The pathway has a filtering system eliminating the best thus leaving the average to walk down the pathway with no real opposition. This is why we end up with highly trained average players and not highly trained talented players.

Our golden generation was not born of the current system. They were products prior to the current system. When they finally retire the senior side will fall back into the void of not qualifying for world cups, olympics and Asia will simply leave us to end up a backwater 3rd rate asian football country.

How many failures did it take for us to get "1" side to a youth WC qualification. In the past we would qualify with numurous youth WC campaigns. Today we struggle to get one.

Anyways I'm over the sport. Time to fire up the boat and go fishing.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:48:52 PM

Amazing!!!!!

Wow, Rogic is such a good player, he is almost peerless in ability. To think he wasn't selected for NSWPL is a massive problem. To think there could be other players of this ability, who are unknown, is frightening!

Australian Coerver use him as their pin up graduate. I can't believe Jason Lanscar, Aussie head of Ceorver, wasn't waxing lyrical about him the media before we saw him for CCM. JL is also friendly with Han Berger.

How did CCM acquire him?

Who from CCM saw him?

Mabbout was identified by another coach in the Victory system, not Ange. We are isolated in Tassie, but we now have a close relationship with Victory and their coaching staff, fostered by state FFA. Many other coaches and TDs in Tassie seem to have little interest in the HAL, so I can usually fire a lot of questions at them at conferences/clinics.

Tassie stakeholders seem most interested in the UEFA CL the EPL and Serie A.



Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:49:36 PM

Tom Rogic.

Interesting.:-k

One thing I don't like about the NTC system, is that elite players start to perceive themselves as elite.

Hence, elitist attitudes can manifest.

The young Victory player who scored twice against Roar is an an interesting case. There may have been perceptions he was 'hidden' or advised not to pursue the FFA pathway.

Sometimes coaches can be so selfish, they will stand in player's way to play at a higher level, if that player can be used in a coach winning a title at a lower level.

Interesting point about the player overlooked for state league playing HAL! Are you at liberty to disclose the name of the player?

It also gets back to the point I make about opinions varying so much from coach to coach based on differing knowledge bases and different criteria determining who or what constitutes a good player. This can be exemplified in coaches evaluation of a forward struggling to score goals in a winning team. The opinions often vary.

So what you are saying is that cronyism and nepotism are still rife, Aussiesrus?

I wonder if it is also a problem that there are so many players who are so close in ability? Then 'connections' tip the balance in favour of the 'connected'?

Apart from Kewell and Viduka, who I don't think are the best Aussie players, apart from when Kewell played between 1997 and 2003, it seems every Euroroo I've read about, had all sorts of trials and tribulations finding a contract in Europe. Often it took a 10th coach to see value in a player, after being dismissed by the previous 9.

Craig Johnston, Mark Schwarzer and Robbie Slater all struggled to gain pro contracts. Sometimes a stroke of luck occurred too.

Central Coast Mariners FC 7 v Sydney FC 2
It was a record-breaking night at Bluetongue Stadium in Gosford as the Central Coast Mariners demolished a hapless Sydney FC outfit 7-2

Who coaches the mariners? Who coached SFC? We know Crook was the coach. Crook was also the AIS head coach and he didn't even last 7 games in the role. Simple, he comes from a losing culture and this spread through SFC in the short time he held reigns. If he cannot handle the pressure of losing a few games as an a-league coach what makes him think the kids at the AIS should be put in the position of being thumped by scores of up to 11-2 week in week out and this will make them better players? Did it make Crook a better coach? Shit no he quit. His own system applies proved a failure.

Maradona won the world cup first as an under 20. He then went on to the win the senior world cup. This is because winning cultures breed winning players. Kids that get put into a losing culture do not go on to win anything. They become mentally programmed to lose. This was most evident in Crook's final game as SFC coach going down 3-2 to victory after holding a 2-0 lead.

AIS kids are handed a free ticket to wear the green and gold. Some of them do not even have clubs and I know one who played 20 mins total football in the NSWPL season at U/20 level and was handed a green and gold jersey, He was not deemed good enough to play 1st grade in NSWPL yet according to the system he is good enough to play for Australia.

I know of kids that were deemed not good enough for local reps here but have been signed by EPL clubs like Man city and Stoke. Nike second chance player who was also not deemed good enough to play state level is now a-league.

@Thupercoach

The pathway has become so narrow there no longer is room for talent. Only the politically well connected kids are allowed to walk that pathway. Fix this and you will fix a lot of problems with the sport.

Need I say more?

@Decentric

Absolutely.

Tom Rogic.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:31:55 PM

Some good points raised in this post.

In the defence of Aussiesrus, he has experienced the frustrations of past selection policies both as a player and a parent. He has played at a very high level after initially being overlooked as part of an old, and possibly flawed, selection process.

We disagree on the merit of future developments in FFA, but that could be based on experiences in different states, with differing, unique scenarios and populations.

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:02:31 PM

I know of your concerns in NSW, Aussiesrus.

Scenarios can vary from state to state.

There are also stakeholders within FFA who know that players' ability at 12 does not equate to what they are like as adult players.

In Tasmania we only have a population of 500 000. Therefore it is a lot easier to be selected in the 20 player or so NTC programs for both genders than NSW or Victoria, or even Queensland, with populations of many millions. When in Tassie NTC programs, it is harder to get under the radar of HAL clubs though.

I am aware how difficult it is in NSW to access NTC/elite programs. FFA realises that the more quality coaching being offered, and, the more well-trained coaches in the country to spot 'talent,' the better. That is why the current NTC system, under the jurisdiction of FFA, will eventually be supplanted by the HAL and APL. Hopefully, there will be much better communication between APL and HAL clubs, with there being direct links between the two tiers.

ATM, ironically, FFA doesn't like young Aussie players leaving the country to pursue football careers in youth academies.

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 11:50:57 AM

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:03:02 PM

That's all well and good and I'm glad to see passionate people around such as yourself, but you don't deserve the attention of anybody if you think those without the research or experience as yourself should just "shut up and learn." Everyone's entitled to their opinion, unless they're pigheaded. Those people should really not be in our game at all. I'd like to hope that you're not one of them.


Personally, Draupnir raises a valid point. There are many situations in which it will be difficult/near-impossible to select a player regardless of their level of talent. This is one of the problems I would love, albeit a difficult task, to see fade over the next few generations, with more knowledge and better quality of coaching spread further across the country. When that quality reaches regional areas as well, we'll see a more rounded development structure where we won't have to rely entirely on "elite pathways," though I assume they'll still be there.

By that time, though, I'd hope the pathways are a bit more fleshed out, something like that of the JFA. (Yes, Japan still has these pathways; they're not necessarily the root of all evil some are making them out to be.)

That is the message that has come across from FFA at the state conference.

Youth pathways isn't an area I am familiar with a great deal. My older boy (17) wasn;t good enough for reps, and my 11 y/o I am still keeping at the club for at least the next 12 months even though he is showing promise. I need to see consistency from him before I feel he may be ready for reps.

In other words, I don;t really know the system when it comes to the young kids. A number of you on here have absolutely trashed it and for the above reason I won;t disagree with you.

@ those of you who criticised it, what needs to change? And how should this change be implemented? Serious question - no point bitching unless you have a solution. And how difficult would that change be to implement?

I am encouraged by Qld where it appears things are more transparent and as a result they have produced a disproportionate number of talented kids the last 5 years.

The system is biased right up until the national U20's team. For example most of the young socceroo's squad had been through the AIS, if you look through the recent call ups, they will pick players who have been at the AIS and are now playing predominately NSWPL U20's, rather than guys who are playing VPL or national youth league.

Out of the 17 guys in the squad who have been based in Australia for the last 2 or 3 years only 3 of them have not gone through the AIS.

Hi Krones and All

I have moved around the country quiet a bit and most likely would have more exposure to selections than most. The moves where work related not for my daughters soccer.
Pathways need to be there, plain and simple its the selction process which I have made many comments about.
In all my times, the Mackay RDO is the only person I have ever come across who picks directly from the best talent pool. Even being as honest as he is, this still doesnt work if the kids he picks parents dont have the money. This bloke is well hated by alot of people because of his honest approach, I loved talking with him because he told it as it was and explained the reasons needed if you where lacking in certain areas.
My current location in Newcastle is a joke. I got free tickets to all the W League games and great to see 6 goals per game, unfortunately for Newcastle the other teams are scoring them, they wont win a game all year.Why? Biased selections, poor coaching

With respect, this is bullshit the only players tat are seen are those that are in the JPL's and they are in my experience the children of the most political parents ie committee members.
ie last year a roar coach came to townsville all the committee members kids got the chance to train with him when another kid of a younger age turned up they walked onto the field and attempted to stop him training luckily the roar coach told them where to go.
Also a player who was chosen by Nike Chance has never been given the opportunity to play at state level How do you explain that.
What about a very talented player who is dropped from the system because his parents object to paying $2500 for coaching and not receiving any goal keeper coaching.

100%
This s why you must leave Australia if you are talented.but if you make it you must also expose all the corruption in the system and name the people responsible.

I know talented player who is leaving Australia soon if he gets into a club overseas and does well he will never play for an Australian team again.


Edited by krones3: 14/11/2012 07:36:02 AM

how many AIS graduates go on to play a-league or socceroo level, compared to CCM? that's the real test, the finishing position in the NYL and a "losing culture" is a null point if the AIS has more.

Arthur, the FFA are well aware of the narrow scope and limitations of the AIS and state teams. It is merely a stopgap measure till clubs have suitable development systems in place (which is the intention of the APL).




Edited by dimi: 14/11/2012 02:37:08 AM

Take it easy. I barely even live here.

Full of win.

Then shut up and learn. I have first hand experience. Politics and $$$ is everything here. Talent comes a distant last.

The sport here is buried in political bullshit and hype and more bullshit. Until this changes the sport will be in no one cares land as far as mainstream australia is concerned.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:19:27 AM

Arthur,

1. At U/12's the coaches have no idea what will be talent at U/18's, Their choices have nothing to do with talent.
2. The sides don't change much up to U/18's simply for political reasons, chairman, president, coach, power brokers, ex-socceroos kids.

Mate wake up and smell the roses. As much as I love yours and Decentrics passion the reality is far removed from the truth. Please do not bury this topic in systematic babble.

I can't comment on the political side of any of this stuff as I have absolutely no involvement and have never had any involvement in a behind the scenes form in the game in Australia. The only thing I can comment on is the results (or lack of) of the pathways. All my experience is in the UK and Scandinavia.

First and foremost; Yes, the pathways are producing players. There are some issues though.

a) I don't believe it has been long enough to judge the pathways system on the current crop of young players. The gap between the NSL and A-League and subsequent shake up put things off for a long time. Just looking at where ALL of the youngsters come from proves this - None are from A-League clubs originally, which leads to point b.

b) The pathways are enforced by 99% amateurs, not professionals, no matter how many "badges" they may hold. Let's keep in mind that no club has a real academy - Without creating a real academy, the only thing they can do now is to scout lower league players (doesn't that say something in itself, lower league?). Leads onto point c.

c) The pathways system will never completely succeed until every professional club has a fully functional academy and youth pathway system. It may seem kind of obvious, but when there is a team (coaches/management) whose sole job it is, is to increase on-field, off-field and financial success for the club in the long term, they will be more committed and will be held to stricter guidelines, expectations and the like. Every young player coming through now is essentially trained in "Sunday league school" up until the age of 16 where they may get a NYL contract - Which brings in the whole idea of politics as well.

From my experience overseas and from what I've seen and heard in Australia, there is a pretty decent difference between how and why players get selected. Youth football in Australia is more reminiscent of in the USA than in Europe - ie; middle class, white families with "soccer moms", and the selection policy and contractual policy of professional clubs (Youth sides) probably points to this.

In the UK and Sweden, none of this even comes into play. If a player is good enough, he's good enough - His parents don't pay for him to trial, why would they? Why would parents pay to get their child into a position where the club will pay him? That's ridiculous. Does anyone think that Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Messi ever paid a club just to be looked at? What about the entire Senagalese team? No? Oh, but in Australia, clubs have trial days where hundreds upon hundreds get looked at for 4 hours, while paying ludicrous amounts of money?

Another problem is distance. With professional clubs separated by so much distance, there comes great risk with who a club offers a contract to. In Europe, there are hundreds if not thousands of professional clubs within only 200km of each other. We have 10. One in another country and another 2000km away from the nearest club.

So, let's say you're in a position to hand NYL contracts out. Let's say you can offer 20 contracts, a brand new side. There are 30 kids vying to get them. All the kids are between 15 and 17, and just for arguments sake, let's say you're based with Perth Glory.

22 kids are from Perth.
17 of these are from stable families whose parents support their kids as much as they can and have been around the local Perth footballing scene their whole lives.
5 of these are from immigrant families with a single parent who works long hours and can't get her child to training and matches every week.

4 kids are from regional Western Australia and have driven and flown in to take parts in trials. Their parents can't make it because they are back home working and looking after the house/family/etc.

4 kids have come interstate from over 2000km away with their families, all to try and earn that first NYL contract. Their parents can't relocate.

So. Who would you guys be more likely to select for a contract? Maybe it's just me, but logistically, the answer is already obvious.

I think this coach has got it wrong regarding Victoria, the kids a beating a path to the pathways.
In fact parents are investing large sums at Private Academies to help get them into the FFV Pathways.
The FFV pathways are seen as the best way to make it.

Playing in an FFV pathway such as VCL (junior zone) is seen as having value and worth. This junior is now assessed in club land as having more value than a player who has not.

Some unscrupulous coaches use the VCL program to recruit players or attract players to their academy programs.
While some of the coaching is just terrible and you wonder why they are even doing it.

The more elite levels of the player development programs like NTC, Skillaroos programs I have been against because they take the kids from the general playing pool and they have the kids playing against older opponents.

Edited by Arthur: 15/11/2012 08:54:41 AM

Ok here is some facts I will pass on.

CCM NYL side select their players based on higher age/years of experience. They do this for the purpose of winning the league.

SFC choose their NYL players based on younger players for the purpose of development. They don't care about winning the NYL.

AIS select really young players who get their arses handed to them on platter. The theory is they will learn and be better players in the future.

WSW have no friggen idea what they are about yet.

In a nutshell watch the NYL league. CCM will finish higher than SFC and AIS. SFC will finish higher than AIS. AIS will get their arses handed to them on platter and this is where our national youth teams are born from. A losing culture.

Don't believe me? watch the NYL tables and results this year. Like every other year.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:39:57 AM

Here's the thing D, I heard all about the relative age effect in Brisbane in 2010, I went through the Birth dates of A-League players last year 60% were born from Jan to June of that group 60% were born Jan to Mar.

Edwards and the FFA keep talking about it but it doesn't appear to be happening on the ground.

While on the ground to many clubs coaches administrators parents state coaches NTC etc are focused on themselves like navel gazers as if making the state u14's or the Zone select is the destination. The coaches seem to encourage it as their reputations depend on it.

This is only part of the journey, the destination should be what Nabbout is close to achieving.

Edited by Arthur: 14/11/2012 12:30:53 AM

Decentric,

I love your passion but seriously have you even bothered to read or understand my posts? Put what I say in your book of facts. Then go from there as the first rule of thumb. The facts I have posted will negate everything else you believe in. Mate i've been in the inner/outer circle for years. Trust me your views are irrelevant to the facts regardless of state/territory.

I mean this with respect. What month a player is born has fuck all to do with selections/pathway/system.

That is what Alistair Edwards suggests FFA intends to happen in the future.

With the Relative Age Effect, many more mature players- January, February, March birthdays- end up being selected in elite programs. The point is that many of these players may be more mature, but may not necessarily be better footballers than less mature kids in their age /year cohort.