This young man was never involved in any of the pathways in Victoria and yet on debut shows a great level of skill and desire.
Leckie also was not identified in the pathways.
Tom Rogic is he another junior never selected in the pathways.

The obvious answer is that the pathways are producing some players and they are missing some players.
Does that mean the selection criteria are wrong or not effective enough?
Does it mean that juniors who dominate their Age groups then struggle to do the same are at senior level suffer from a mental performance issues or have stagnated in their technical decision making development?

I hope that the FFA does some research in this area, seeing where kids have played their junior football and how measure the success or otherwise of the pathways to identify talent.

My view is simply more investment should go to grassroots from 6 to 16yo to develop the general pool and the pathways should start at 16yo. Unfortunately the demands of the U13 and U16 National Squads have created a situation where the National Federation and State Affiliates see the need to develop pathways to feed into these teams. Maybe this is not to the correct way as selection becomes an end in itself rather than being part ofthe journey, like a Leckie, ogic or Nabbout.



Edited by Arthur: 13/11/2012 11:25:07 AM

Edited by Arthur: 13/11/2012 11:25:32 AM

I feel with the current system 95% of the effort is being focused on 1 % of the players when possibly 5 % are good enough to make it as a footballer. We should be spreading the net further and the best will eventually rise to the top. Just like what the big European clubs do, sign many teenagers with the hope that 1 or 2 will make it. Also every a league club needs to have from under 6 through to A League playing in the local competition. The best youngsters will come to you because it is a direct path into the A League team thus allowing to scout more effectively in their city.

Edited by Roar #1: 13/11/2012 12:49:12 PM

My feelings on this are well known. The pathways are for those pre ordained to be a part of them not necessarily the players with the most potential. The pathways do not have to be successful either, the reason being that their continued existence is enough to keep them receiving their funding.

The pathway selection is not based on skill or potential but on genetics the owns passed down through the correct parents with the correct connections.

And i am sure that in every corner of Australia there is a player that on the 8th day god did say that he must be selected for every elite team, no matter how bad he trials or plays.Because when he was 13 he was a champion.
This will never change.:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Your all pretty much on the money.

After the chairman, president, coaches, mates of coaches, fat sponsors, clubs management, ethnicity kids get selected first their might be a spot or two left for some talent. Maybe if they are lucky. So real talent doesn't get a look in while resources and opportunities are pissed up. This is why we end up with very average players being highly trained to finish up with highly trained average players. If you look at the majority of NYL players they are all related to someone in position somewhere and a lot of them are brothers or cousins.

The system is corrupt and the sport is a complete joke. Every Australian knows this no matter how much money they piss up on hype and bullshit promoting the game. Channels 7, 9, 10 etc won't touch the sport because they know all these truths.

I've had a first hand look into football from a top clubs inside workings and how players are selected and promoted to a-league and national teams. Talent has nothing to do with it. It's not what skills a players has or how good or bad they are. It's who they know and what involvement their parents have in the sport.

As for the money side FFA milk the shit out of the state associations like FNSW who milk the shit out of the many association clubs that charge local park players their rego fees for a service they get nothing back for. For every local park senior player FNSW milks around $100 per year from each. The average NSW local park senior player pays around $350 per year for a season of football which equates to around 18 ish games a year.

Football is a complete joke in this country and every australian knows it. I walked away from high level football some 30 years ago in disgust at what the game was. It's 30 years later and I am still disgusted that today nothing has changed except the faces that run the massive rort.

Football in this country is accountable to nobody. It is a law unto itself and runs itself how it pleases at the expense of the mums and dads who know no better. It is nothing more than it's own taxman with the money it collects being spent on one big party for the benefit of those who run the sport. Ah lifes good in the know.

The A-league is a joke. After 8 years they are still struggling to maintain a 10 team comp. Australia simply doesn't buy into the rort of the sport nor does it believe the bullshit. League, AFL, cricket, union, golf, netball, formula 1, MotoGP and even horse racing will always take precendence over football in this country.

Until things change only those stupid enough to pay for foxtel or the ethnic for ethnics channel SBS will ever have an interest in the sport.

Anyway it's summer. I have better things to do with my money like go to the beach or take my boat fishing n camping and enjoy the great outdoors.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 13/11/2012 07:59:25 PM

Today i had a person suggest (that a man i believe to be above all this) may himself be corrupt.
I could not believe my ears this cumming from a person who deals in gossip,and politics at every level and associates and cohorts freely with the worst pple in the sport. the loud mouthed fat committee and sponsors who kids get in every time.


Question?
When you hear pple bagging out pple you know and you know they are wrong. After telling the person to their face that the are wrong.
Do you tell the person they have slandered or not?

Edited by krones3: 13/11/2012 09:06:28 PM

krones3,

It is only slanderous if it is not factual or cannot be proven.

An opinion is not slanderous either. Opinions are challenged and changed by the provision of alter facts.

Spin doctoring is also an art of bending the facts. Political pundits know all too well this art.

You are best off providing the alter facts.

Aussierus many true points I have experienced myself for a long time in our beloved game.
As a potential prospective jnr myself I felt the barriers some 35yrs ago myself but the opposite that my parents deciding to claim their piece of land on the upper north shore we were the "wogs" in the heart land of anglos running the KDSA back in the 70's.
My teens I was in a club team winning 5yrs on the trot, 2yrs undefeated and Champions of Champions once with up to 9players chosen for Kuring-gai not once was I asked to try out for my father wasn't in the inner circle. Yet coachs from afar approached the ol man who we played in Tournaments/Finals....you could see it all but those times the ol man was focusing on earning a crust for the family and had no time to take his kid miles away for rep training then games in another district....
Alas I carried on loving the game and played AA1's to 35/1's now age creeping up 45's with mates in div2 having just won the comp but importantly the game has been indoctornated in my 2 boys coming and watching their ol bloke in turn they doing the same playing.

Now I'm going through the process of trials for my No2 12yr old the last 2yrs - its a bitch once again seeing the same old same old but worse for the modern day parent is happy to spend $$$$ far more than in the past, good on them I don't begrudge that BUT I see their Jnr is not that worthy on the pitch but the club or admin/selector is happy to take the cash no ?!
Last year he was good enough to make Div1 and the club (a current PL club) had enough players to enter 2 squads for yes it looks far better for the club doesn't it BUT being newbies to the club he was drafted into the 2nd team which tbh should have been entered in Div2 for only 3odd players were true Div1 material.
Therefore the boys got flogged every game - many times the other Div1 team played after us, I got to know a few of the Dads and they kept bitching saying my boy should be in the top squad watching him in the games but the coach had his agenda his kid and 2 others should have been dropped yaddayaddayadda you get the drift and that they can't stand the coach and club management. I'm sure this plays out everywhere as we all know. Naturally not being in the inner circle many of these average Div1 boys were drafted in the Development squads I was none the wiser nor was I asked if my boy would try out end of 2011/12.
I have 2 trials coming up for 2013 IF nothing happens and that I truely feel the kid doesn't deserve a place I'll just encourage him to be a good club man and enjoy his football as his ol bloke did for its not worth the hard ship.

So the question do academys/pathways work ? having tried the last couple of years and even though I haven't got a coaching ticket just as aussierus I see is "average players being highly trained to finish up with highly trained average players"
cuts it tuff, sure I have seen some amzingly gifted kids the last couple of years but most are not team players, they love having the latest and greatest gear on, fancy ronaldo haircuts step overs etc but the game is also putting their fellow players down and the coachs do nothing much about imo.
Its become more shallow than it was in my days go figure and were meant to be going forward afterall its the modern world ](*,)
Sorry to rant on just my observations.

By the way I am rapt for the Victory kid that Ange gave him a go - go figure how many academys/pathways coachs didn't give him the chance !

Edited by M.L.: 13/11/2012 10:28:30 PM

Edited by M.L.: 13/11/2012 10:35:54 PM

M.L.

Much of what you describe is common. I can relate to it all. Have seen it all. And the whole thing leaves me disgusted. I think a big problem is that clubs are fighting for survival and their survival is cash based. Who is going to tell the 50k or 100k sponsor his kid isn't good enough? Who is going tell the chairman, coach or president etc etc their kid isn't good enough? Cash from FFA should be filtered down not milked up.

My lad has been at an academy for 2 years (Australasian Soccer Academy) Trained and played with A-League, J-League, Olyroos, NYL players, EPL juniors, gave up a years playing to train with a top flight NSWPL club, won countless division 1 titles in row. Yet now at 18 almost 19 he cannot even obtain a place in a premier 2 U/20's side despite going to around 10 trials in the last 3-4 weeks. He worked his arse off for the last 3 years day and nights and when it came time for his reward had it ripped from him. He is at the point where he just shrugs his shoulders and says it's not my problem it's theirs. Top kid.

I have given so much of myself through coaching over the years and have seen many brilliant outstanding kids who would absolutely run rings around todays youth and the sad thing is I look them up today to see they have given up the sport because the system has let them down. Such a waste of brilliant talent. Todays youth are not even a shred of the talent that i've seen and had the pleasure of coaching in the past.

It's a sad fact there is the inner circle and there is the outer circle. Talent has nothing to do with any of it.

You are now where I was about 6-7 years ago. I wish I could say things have changed but they have not. Still I wish you the best of luck for your lad. My lad will now retire from football at the age of 18 and carry into his generation with his kids the same resentment of the sport for his next generation.

It is my personal experience watching my lad trial for the last 3 years that these open trials are a complete waste of your time. They already know prior who they will pick and why. I had hoped 30 years on from my days the sport had changed. It hasn't. Just new faces reproducing the same rubbish but nowdays the only thing that has changed is the way they market the bullshit. Spin doctoring for the gullible.

Here is a weird irony that I will share. The higher the level my lad trialed the closer he came to being signed, meaning he would reach the last 20-25 out of over 150 players. The lower the level he trialed with only IE: 25 players he was cut instantly. What does this tell you? I conclude if you are from outside the circle lad your must be good enough to carry the political duds and make them look good at higher levels. At lower levels they simply have no idea in any case which is why they are lower level. Lower levels are like a rotor lactor of idiots.

Don't ever let any dickhead tell you, you are just a parent who's kid failed. It is not the kid who fails or you as a parent. It is the system and the bunch of dickheads making it a one sided no win situation.

We all love the sport of football in it's purist form. Nothing better. It's the dickheads screwing it up for everyone else that seem to take pleasure in doing so simply because they can.

Kharma has a funny way of giving back to them what they deserve ;)

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:28:40 AM

Yep clubs are fighting for their survival - the recent changes as we know re the PL structure for next season has made things even harder at jnr level.
Up until this week many State League 1/2 clubs haven't even had any U12-15 trials I'm sure you know of this : "in discussion with other State League 1 & 2 Clubs about setting up a Development League for the U12-U15 Academy teams".
Its all pear shaped even more so.

You make perfect sense to me - water under the bridge I'm sure but I'm sorry for your boy - having the passion driven out of him is criminal !

What you say below is true to word watching myself from the sidelines :

It is my personal experience watching my lad trial for the last 3 years that these open trials are a complete waste of your time. They already know prior who they will pick and why. I had hoped 30 years on from my days the sport had changed. It hasn't. Just new faces reproducing the same rubbish but nowdays the only thing that has changed is the way they market the bullshit. Spin doctoring for the gullible.

I was OS on business early last week so my wife stepped in for me taking him to X trial I had him entered.
2hrs on he was culled with some others - he was ripped apart she said for all he was told "your out" nothing more nothing less, sure I don't expect cotton wool treatment but at 12 as you can imagine he was devastated and in tears like mad saying I never want to play football again, sure typical reactions of a kid with stars in his eyes but you would think in this do gooder world we are expected to live in selectors would have some words of encouragement or some skill by now how to break the bad news.
Thanks for your best wishs but I have no hope in the system just doing what my trouper desires and will put a stop to it after this coming season if nothing happens for I hate being around the BS people and my kid being exposed to BS !

The only future for a player with skill is overseas.All i can say is concentrate on football and make the break as soon as possible.

M.L.

What you describe is the power trip and the joy of the so called elite who probably has a daytime job as a toilet cleaner and the I.Q. of a potatoe telling your 12 year old he isn't good enough.

I look at it this way. It's not us who are not good enough. It's them not deserving enough and the system not in place good enough for us ;)

They can go live in wanker world as far as i'm concerned. I can finally walk away from the sport and do something I enjoy for a change. Enough bullshit for me. The sport here will fall on it's sword and be rehashed over over and again like a mcdonalds big mac. I simply don't care anymore for it.

It's a circus full of clowns with actors, performers, spin doctors and politicians fighting for your $$$.

Give them only what they deserve ;)

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:14:58 AM

I was talking to a coach involved with an A League club during the last week. There is a variation in states in accessing players according to him.


According to this coach, Queensland has a transparent structure where it is easy to access talent. Most of it goes through their state NTC. Relatively speaking, the clubs support the system.

The inverse operates in Victoria. There it seems some of the greatest opponents of the A league exist - known as 'Bitters' on the interweb. The perspective from this coach, is that many more clubs attempt to discourage young players from going through the FFA system. Hence, there are many good players that are more difficult to scout in Victoria.

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:00:32 AM

See my previous post.

Scenarios may vary from state to state.

D, it is not just the pathways that are the issue - it is also the clubs that are meant to feed the pathway.

Another point Alistair Edwards made at our state FFA conference, was that it is FFA's unequivocal intention, to have A League clubs and Australian Premier League clubs take over elite pathway in coaching youth.

That it is FFA's intention to replicate what happens in most other countries - FFA will move away from coaching elite youth.

That is what Alistair Edwards suggests FFA intends to happen in the future.

With the Relative Age Effect, many more mature players- January, February, March birthdays- end up being selected in elite programs. The point is that many of these players may be more mature, but may not necessarily be better footballers than less mature kids in their age /year cohort.

Decentric,

I love your passion but seriously have you even bothered to read or understand my posts? Put what I say in your book of facts. Then go from there as the first rule of thumb. The facts I have posted will negate everything else you believe in. Mate i've been in the inner/outer circle for years. Trust me your views are irrelevant to the facts regardless of state/territory.

I mean this with respect. What month a player is born has fuck all to do with selections/pathway/system.

Here's the thing D, I heard all about the relative age effect in Brisbane in 2010, I went through the Birth dates of A-League players last year 60% were born from Jan to June of that group 60% were born Jan to Mar.

Edwards and the FFA keep talking about it but it doesn't appear to be happening on the ground.

While on the ground to many clubs coaches administrators parents state coaches NTC etc are focused on themselves like navel gazers as if making the state u14's or the Zone select is the destination. The coaches seem to encourage it as their reputations depend on it.

This is only part of the journey, the destination should be what Nabbout is close to achieving.

Edited by Arthur: 14/11/2012 12:30:53 AM

Ok here is some facts I will pass on.

CCM NYL side select their players based on higher age/years of experience. They do this for the purpose of winning the league.

SFC choose their NYL players based on younger players for the purpose of development. They don't care about winning the NYL.

AIS select really young players who get their arses handed to them on platter. The theory is they will learn and be better players in the future.

WSW have no friggen idea what they are about yet.

In a nutshell watch the NYL league. CCM will finish higher than SFC and AIS. SFC will finish higher than AIS. AIS will get their arses handed to them on platter and this is where our national youth teams are born from. A losing culture.

Don't believe me? watch the NYL tables and results this year. Like every other year.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:39:57 AM

I think this coach has got it wrong regarding Victoria, the kids a beating a path to the pathways.
In fact parents are investing large sums at Private Academies to help get them into the FFV Pathways.
The FFV pathways are seen as the best way to make it.

Playing in an FFV pathway such as VCL (junior zone) is seen as having value and worth. This junior is now assessed in club land as having more value than a player who has not.

Some unscrupulous coaches use the VCL program to recruit players or attract players to their academy programs.
While some of the coaching is just terrible and you wonder why they are even doing it.

The more elite levels of the player development programs like NTC, Skillaroos programs I have been against because they take the kids from the general playing pool and they have the kids playing against older opponents.

Edited by Arthur: 15/11/2012 08:54:41 AM

I can't comment on the political side of any of this stuff as I have absolutely no involvement and have never had any involvement in a behind the scenes form in the game in Australia. The only thing I can comment on is the results (or lack of) of the pathways. All my experience is in the UK and Scandinavia.

First and foremost; Yes, the pathways are producing players. There are some issues though.

a) I don't believe it has been long enough to judge the pathways system on the current crop of young players. The gap between the NSL and A-League and subsequent shake up put things off for a long time. Just looking at where ALL of the youngsters come from proves this - None are from A-League clubs originally, which leads to point b.

b) The pathways are enforced by 99% amateurs, not professionals, no matter how many "badges" they may hold. Let's keep in mind that no club has a real academy - Without creating a real academy, the only thing they can do now is to scout lower league players (doesn't that say something in itself, lower league?). Leads onto point c.

c) The pathways system will never completely succeed until every professional club has a fully functional academy and youth pathway system. It may seem kind of obvious, but when there is a team (coaches/management) whose sole job it is, is to increase on-field, off-field and financial success for the club in the long term, they will be more committed and will be held to stricter guidelines, expectations and the like. Every young player coming through now is essentially trained in "Sunday league school" up until the age of 16 where they may get a NYL contract - Which brings in the whole idea of politics as well.

From my experience overseas and from what I've seen and heard in Australia, there is a pretty decent difference between how and why players get selected. Youth football in Australia is more reminiscent of in the USA than in Europe - ie; middle class, white families with "soccer moms", and the selection policy and contractual policy of professional clubs (Youth sides) probably points to this.

In the UK and Sweden, none of this even comes into play. If a player is good enough, he's good enough - His parents don't pay for him to trial, why would they? Why would parents pay to get their child into a position where the club will pay him? That's ridiculous. Does anyone think that Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Messi ever paid a club just to be looked at? What about the entire Senagalese team? No? Oh, but in Australia, clubs have trial days where hundreds upon hundreds get looked at for 4 hours, while paying ludicrous amounts of money?

Another problem is distance. With professional clubs separated by so much distance, there comes great risk with who a club offers a contract to. In Europe, there are hundreds if not thousands of professional clubs within only 200km of each other. We have 10. One in another country and another 2000km away from the nearest club.

So, let's say you're in a position to hand NYL contracts out. Let's say you can offer 20 contracts, a brand new side. There are 30 kids vying to get them. All the kids are between 15 and 17, and just for arguments sake, let's say you're based with Perth Glory.

22 kids are from Perth.
17 of these are from stable families whose parents support their kids as much as they can and have been around the local Perth footballing scene their whole lives.
5 of these are from immigrant families with a single parent who works long hours and can't get her child to training and matches every week.

4 kids are from regional Western Australia and have driven and flown in to take parts in trials. Their parents can't make it because they are back home working and looking after the house/family/etc.

4 kids have come interstate from over 2000km away with their families, all to try and earn that first NYL contract. Their parents can't relocate.

So. Who would you guys be more likely to select for a contract? Maybe it's just me, but logistically, the answer is already obvious.

Arthur,

1. At U/12's the coaches have no idea what will be talent at U/18's, Their choices have nothing to do with talent.
2. The sides don't change much up to U/18's simply for political reasons, chairman, president, coach, power brokers, ex-socceroos kids.

Mate wake up and smell the roses. As much as I love yours and Decentrics passion the reality is far removed from the truth. Please do not bury this topic in systematic babble.

Then shut up and learn. I have first hand experience. Politics and $$$ is everything here. Talent comes a distant last.

The sport here is buried in political bullshit and hype and more bullshit. Until this changes the sport will be in no one cares land as far as mainstream australia is concerned.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:19:27 AM

Full of win.

Take it easy. I barely even live here.

how many AIS graduates go on to play a-league or socceroo level, compared to CCM? that's the real test, the finishing position in the NYL and a "losing culture" is a null point if the AIS has more.

Arthur, the FFA are well aware of the narrow scope and limitations of the AIS and state teams. It is merely a stopgap measure till clubs have suitable development systems in place (which is the intention of the APL).




Edited by dimi: 14/11/2012 02:37:08 AM

With respect, this is bullshit the only players tat are seen are those that are in the JPL's and they are in my experience the children of the most political parents ie committee members.
ie last year a roar coach came to townsville all the committee members kids got the chance to train with him when another kid of a younger age turned up they walked onto the field and attempted to stop him training luckily the roar coach told them where to go.
Also a player who was chosen by Nike Chance has never been given the opportunity to play at state level How do you explain that.
What about a very talented player who is dropped from the system because his parents object to paying $2500 for coaching and not receiving any goal keeper coaching.

100%
This s why you must leave Australia if you are talented.but if you make it you must also expose all the corruption in the system and name the people responsible.

I know talented player who is leaving Australia soon if he gets into a club overseas and does well he will never play for an Australian team again.


Edited by krones3: 14/11/2012 07:36:02 AM

Hi Krones and All

I have moved around the country quiet a bit and most likely would have more exposure to selections than most. The moves where work related not for my daughters soccer.
Pathways need to be there, plain and simple its the selction process which I have made many comments about.
In all my times, the Mackay RDO is the only person I have ever come across who picks directly from the best talent pool. Even being as honest as he is, this still doesnt work if the kids he picks parents dont have the money. This bloke is well hated by alot of people because of his honest approach, I loved talking with him because he told it as it was and explained the reasons needed if you where lacking in certain areas.
My current location in Newcastle is a joke. I got free tickets to all the W League games and great to see 6 goals per game, unfortunately for Newcastle the other teams are scoring them, they wont win a game all year.Why? Biased selections, poor coaching

The system is biased right up until the national U20's team. For example most of the young socceroo's squad had been through the AIS, if you look through the recent call ups, they will pick players who have been at the AIS and are now playing predominately NSWPL U20's, rather than guys who are playing VPL or national youth league.

Out of the 17 guys in the squad who have been based in Australia for the last 2 or 3 years only 3 of them have not gone through the AIS.

Youth pathways isn't an area I am familiar with a great deal. My older boy (17) wasn;t good enough for reps, and my 11 y/o I am still keeping at the club for at least the next 12 months even though he is showing promise. I need to see consistency from him before I feel he may be ready for reps.

In other words, I don;t really know the system when it comes to the young kids. A number of you on here have absolutely trashed it and for the above reason I won;t disagree with you.

@ those of you who criticised it, what needs to change? And how should this change be implemented? Serious question - no point bitching unless you have a solution. And how difficult would that change be to implement?

I am encouraged by Qld where it appears things are more transparent and as a result they have produced a disproportionate number of talented kids the last 5 years.

That is the message that has come across from FFA at the state conference.

That's all well and good and I'm glad to see passionate people around such as yourself, but you don't deserve the attention of anybody if you think those without the research or experience as yourself should just "shut up and learn." Everyone's entitled to their opinion, unless they're pigheaded. Those people should really not be in our game at all. I'd like to hope that you're not one of them.


Personally, Draupnir raises a valid point. There are many situations in which it will be difficult/near-impossible to select a player regardless of their level of talent. This is one of the problems I would love, albeit a difficult task, to see fade over the next few generations, with more knowledge and better quality of coaching spread further across the country. When that quality reaches regional areas as well, we'll see a more rounded development structure where we won't have to rely entirely on "elite pathways," though I assume they'll still be there.

By that time, though, I'd hope the pathways are a bit more fleshed out, something like that of the JFA. (Yes, Japan still has these pathways; they're not necessarily the root of all evil some are making them out to be.)

In Tasmania we only have a population of 500 000. Therefore it is a lot easier to be selected in the 20 player or so NTC programs for both genders than NSW or Victoria, or even Queensland, with populations of many millions. When in Tassie NTC programs, it is harder to get under the radar of HAL clubs though.

I am aware how difficult it is in NSW to access NTC/elite programs. FFA realises that the more quality coaching being offered, and, the more well-trained coaches in the country to spot 'talent,' the better. That is why the current NTC system, under the jurisdiction of FFA, will eventually be supplanted by the HAL and APL. Hopefully, there will be much better communication between APL and HAL clubs, with there being direct links between the two tiers.

ATM, ironically, FFA doesn't like young Aussie players leaving the country to pursue football careers in youth academies.

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 11:50:57 AM

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:03:02 PM

I know of your concerns in NSW, Aussiesrus.

Scenarios can vary from state to state.

There are also stakeholders within FFA who know that players' ability at 12 does not equate to what they are like as adult players.

In the defence of Aussiesrus, he has experienced the frustrations of past selection policies both as a player and a parent. He has played at a very high level after initially being overlooked as part of an old, and possibly flawed, selection process.

We disagree on the merit of future developments in FFA, but that could be based on experiences in different states, with differing, unique scenarios and populations.

Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:02:31 PM

Some good points raised in this post.

Central Coast Mariners FC 7 v Sydney FC 2
It was a record-breaking night at Bluetongue Stadium in Gosford as the Central Coast Mariners demolished a hapless Sydney FC outfit 7-2

Who coaches the mariners? Who coached SFC? We know Crook was the coach. Crook was also the AIS head coach and he didn't even last 7 games in the role. Simple, he comes from a losing culture and this spread through SFC in the short time he held reigns. If he cannot handle the pressure of losing a few games as an a-league coach what makes him think the kids at the AIS should be put in the position of being thumped by scores of up to 11-2 week in week out and this will make them better players? Did it make Crook a better coach? Shit no he quit. His own system applies proved a failure.

Maradona won the world cup first as an under 20. He then went on to the win the senior world cup. This is because winning cultures breed winning players. Kids that get put into a losing culture do not go on to win anything. They become mentally programmed to lose. This was most evident in Crook's final game as SFC coach going down 3-2 to victory after holding a 2-0 lead.

AIS kids are handed a free ticket to wear the green and gold. Some of them do not even have clubs and I know one who played 20 mins total football in the NSWPL season at U/20 level and was handed a green and gold jersey, He was not deemed good enough to play 1st grade in NSWPL yet according to the system he is good enough to play for Australia.

I know of kids that were deemed not good enough for local reps here but have been signed by EPL clubs like Man city and Stoke. Nike second chance player who was also not deemed good enough to play state level is now a-league.

@Thupercoach

The pathway has become so narrow there no longer is room for talent. Only the politically well connected kids are allowed to walk that pathway. Fix this and you will fix a lot of problems with the sport.

Need I say more?

@Decentric

Absolutely.

Tom Rogic.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 12:31:55 PM

So what you are saying is that cronyism and nepotism are still rife, Aussiesrus?

I wonder if it is also a problem that there are so many players who are so close in ability? Then 'connections' tip the balance in favour of the 'connected'?

Apart from Kewell and Viduka, who I don't think are the best Aussie players, apart from when Kewell played between 1997 and 2003, it seems every Euroroo I've read about, had all sorts of trials and tribulations finding a contract in Europe. Often it took a 10th coach to see value in a player, after being dismissed by the previous 9.

Craig Johnston, Mark Schwarzer and Robbie Slater all struggled to gain pro contracts. Sometimes a stroke of luck occurred too.

Interesting point about the player overlooked for state league playing HAL! Are you at liberty to disclose the name of the player?

It also gets back to the point I make about opinions varying so much from coach to coach based on differing knowledge bases and different criteria determining who or what constitutes a good player. This can be exemplified in coaches evaluation of a forward struggling to score goals in a winning team. The opinions often vary.

Interesting.:-k

One thing I don't like about the NTC system, is that elite players start to perceive themselves as elite.

Hence, elitist attitudes can manifest.

The young Victory player who scored twice against Roar is an an interesting case. There may have been perceptions he was 'hidden' or advised not to pursue the FFA pathway.

Sometimes coaches can be so selfish, they will stand in player's way to play at a higher level, if that player can be used in a coach winning a title at a lower level.

Tom Rogic.

Amazing!!!!!

Wow, Rogic is such a good player, he is almost peerless in ability. To think he wasn't selected for NSWPL is a massive problem. To think there could be other players of this ability, who are unknown, is frightening!

Australian Coerver use him as their pin up graduate. I can't believe Jason Lanscar, Aussie head of Ceorver, wasn't waxing lyrical about him the media before we saw him for CCM. JL is also friendly with Han Berger.

How did CCM acquire him?

Who from CCM saw him?

Mabbout was identified by another coach in the Victory system, not Ange. We are isolated in Tassie, but we now have a close relationship with Victory and their coaching staff, fostered by state FFA. Many other coaches and TDs in Tassie seem to have little interest in the HAL, so I can usually fire a lot of questions at them at conferences/clinics.

Tassie stakeholders seem most interested in the UEFA CL the EPL and Serie A.



Edited by Decentric: 14/11/2012 12:49:36 PM

Decentric,

Tom Rogic won the nike second chance competition. CCM "then" took him in and developed him further.

If it wasn't for nike and ccm Tom Rogic would be just another unknown who would of got nowhere in our system.

CCM can also be credited with giving Kwabena Appiah Kubi his chance. Kwabena was languishing in nowhereland down in the second tier NSW state league. CCM gave him his chance and developed him through their NYL system and he is now signed with wanderers first team on a pro contract. Prior to CCM giving Kabsy his chance there was no reps or pathway for him. Alusine Fofonah is another player who the system was not interested in. No reps were interested in Alusine either so he went and trialled for Manchester City and was signed. Australia's first ever at 14 yrs old on 150k for 2 years (So i've been told).

These are just a few of many.

The pathway is designed to exclude players of this calibre with real talent. The pathway has a filtering system eliminating the best thus leaving the average to walk down the pathway with no real opposition. This is why we end up with highly trained average players and not highly trained talented players.

Our golden generation was not born of the current system. They were products prior to the current system. When they finally retire the senior side will fall back into the void of not qualifying for world cups, olympics and Asia will simply leave us to end up a backwater 3rd rate asian football country.

How many failures did it take for us to get "1" side to a youth WC qualification. In the past we would qualify with numurous youth WC campaigns. Today we struggle to get one.

Anyways I'm over the sport. Time to fire up the boat and go fishing.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 14/11/2012 01:48:52 PM

Mariners found Rogic because there was a few months between him winning the Nike competition and going over to the UK so I believe it was Ron Smith who contacted Arnie and got him the chance to train with them to maintain fitness before he left.

Rogic wasn't overlooked for NSWPL, he played in the ACTPL, and I would say he didn't bypass the system altogether because he did go through state teams and NTC, he just missed the final cut when it came to the AIS squad (though he did have a short term training stint with them just not as a full scholarship holder). I saw Rogic at Coffs and NTC and while he was obviously a good player, he was very ponderous and slow at times so I can understand why he wasn't selected for AIS, he wasn't even a standout in his junior state team at that time. Players like Amini, Babalj, Gameiro and Antonis were also at those tournaments and at that point in time were far superior.

This is where the FFA system lets us down compared to the past because a late developer like Rogic who wasn't a standout at 14 or 15 is going to be missed. In the past Joeys selections began at 16 and AIS at 17 so that extra year or 2 can make a big difference. Remember Bresciano didn't make a Victorian team until he was 16 and then went straight to AIS and then on to be one of our best ever. The current system would completely miss him because if you haven't made your state team by 14 its almost impossible to make a Joeys or AIS.

What we call the Golden Generation may not be perceived as such in 20 years time.

Why would a FFA pathway be designed to exclude players of real talent?

In Tassie we now have two players with Melbourne Heart youth team. I think there would be a consensus they were the best two players in the NTC.

There is another Tassie player who is a train on with the Canberra W League team. I think she would also be considered the best local NTC player. There may be some other good Tassie players with similar talent, but who lack the motivation to become a pro player.

In the case of this state, FFA appears to have got it right.

A big problem.

As HAL and APL clubs take over coaching youth, there will be less chance for the late developers to miss out.

I think it's a pretty narrow view to talk about 'the pathway' when all of the discussion above shows that there are in fact many different pathways that a player can take to become a pro. And over and over again it has been said that the FFA also thinks the current options are too narrow and that the HAL and APL clubs are where the development (academies) should be.

And in the best programmes in the world there will always be early and late developers who confound the system and this, to some, becomes the 'proof' that the system isn't working.

Your confusing official FFA pathways as opposed to unofficial backdoors. Nike second chance is not an official pathway, It was a back door. Neither is the backdoor for late bloomers which CCM recognises should be left open. CCM deserve a lot of credit for cutting through the crap and ignoring the system where applicable whereas many other clubs will accept nothing except the system.

Clearer for you now?

I have two boys that are involved in the FFA pathway system and one that last year played for State, yet subsequently was deemed too small for NTC (due to the fact that 14 year olds were expected to play against under 23’s and he was a smaller October born player).

So from my limited experience with the pathway agenda I believe the comments made on here are nearly all valid to some degree.

The issues have been many such as flaws in the trialling process (not broad enough), talent identification (good players often discarded at first trial by inexperienced coaches), ignorance of Relative Age Effect (general problem), inadequate coaching (not a big enough pool to choose from), politics in selection (coach’s sons, players from ‘big’ clubs etc.) and a robotic playing style.

Over the last 3/4 years I have seen an improvement in the efforts made to improve coaches and coaching techniques, with more and more club coaches and recently retired players undertaking the AFC C licence.

NTC now play against U/18’s which reduces RAE issue.

SAP trials are more extensive. Also this year I have seen kids being allowed to express themselves more.

More and more junior clubs are seeing the benefits of SSG’S and realise they can still get the coveted results by playing the game by following the National Curriculum, which provides better quality players for SAP, State teams, NTC and ultimately AIS.

The bigger stronger kids with less ability are not getting chosen on size alone at the younger ages. This also needs to be monitored to ensure bigger kids with potential are not prejudiced.

As frustrating (and expensive) as it is, I have no doubt that the FFA pathway is moving the game forward. The standards and opportunities across the board are rising rapidly and less and less players with potential to play at the highest levels will be missed. We just need more good coaches and greater investment from HAL clubs in junior development.

Hahaha thanks for explaining that to me.

I'm confusing nothing. Do you really think that there is enough room in the current FFA pathways to include all of the talented players ? Of course not. I don't think anyone would say that there is. This is why there are several different and varied ways to become a pro. Do you think that the Nike chance people think they are a 'back door'? It's just a different way. The nike academy in the UK is solely for the purpose of developing and showcasing talented players to clubs. I'm sure neither they nor the clubs that take the players from em see it as an unofficial backdoor. just a different route. The FFA recognise that everyone (HAL clubs etc) should have academies/development programmes. CCM are doing a great job and it would be fantastic if all the clubs could do similar. Doesn't mean the alternatives are rubbish though.

Let's keep in mind that Reading also tried to sign Rogic before any Australian side (during and after the Nike second chance). Bit sad that he had to a) enter into a competition and b) go overseas to get noticed first.

I'm pretty sure the reason CCM even noticed Rogic was because they had heard about "a kid that Reading tried to sign; the only reason they didn't is because of work permit issues". So he came back and was snapped up.

You may ask - How can a side with the money to sign Del Piero not even know about this kid, before a team playing out of Gosford finds him first?

Edited by Draupnir: 14/11/2012 09:13:51 PM

[quote=Let's keep in mind that Reading also tried to sign Rogic before any Australian side (during and after the Nike second chance). Bit sad that he had to a) enter into a competition and b) go overseas to get noticed first.

I'm pretty sure the reason CCM even noticed Rogic was because they had heard about "a kid that Reading tried to sign; the only reason they didn't is because of work permit issues". So he came back and was snapped up.

Edited by Draupnir: 14/11/2012 09:13:51 PM[/quote]


Now that Rogic has an international cap and a few more coming up in the east asian games,he should try again for a work permit.

This should always be PLAN A with the FFA path as PLAN B.

Selecting U/12's as potential Professional Players is not an Australian problem or unique to Australia. It is a problem all over the world. The AC Milan Junior program in Italy selects 500 U/12 players every year with lots of resources and expert coaching. How many of the current Senior Squad of AC Milan started at U/12? I'll guess none. Empoli produces more players with less resources. Why?

In recent times only Barcelona's success at developing players and in the past Ajax at high quality has peeked the interest of clubs. Even then Barcelona's and the Worlds greatest player seeds were initially developed in Argentina.[/color]

I think what you and others see as political machinations has more to do with a lack of a FOOTBALL CULTURE.
In Australia our football culture is based on what we see from overseas. And what we mostly look at is the EPL. So in junior player development terms and club operational terms and playing style terms we are using the EPL model. Added to that the Sporting Cultural background of AFL and RL.

Our junior teams are based on winning, because thats the Australian way. Our junior coaches are judged on winning by themselves and externally.
To win junior matches you pick the early physical developers with good motor skills and speed. You keep them tactically structured and you hit long balls over the top or through the channels for the big fast boys to run onto and score.
You teach them to charge at the player with the ball because he/she doesn't have or yet have the technical ability to make the necessary lateral and first touches to avoid your player.
These players then get selected into the pathways and end up playing for Australia but they can't pass a ball or have a first touch but they can run like a gazzalle.

Until we as a Football Community embrace skill versus speed, street smarts over athleticism , dribbling six players versus kicking it long we will always be behind.

Edited by Arthur: 15/11/2012 09:39:54 AM

What needs to change is the FFA's and the State Federations belief that only they have the necessary resources to develop the elite player and the clubs do not.
If what is needed to develop the elite player is highly qualified coaches and state of the art facilities the there wouldn't have been any players come through from Africa or South America.
As I wrote above we need a FOOTBALL CULTURE that understands that the boy you see at 10 years of age is no where near what he will be when 21. So why are we making him play like a 21 year old in the EPL?
That's like taking the attitude that to become a Doctor we can take that 10yo and put him straight into University! Of course that is set for failure to become a Doctor you have to go through the necessary childhood learning process.

Same to in Football.

If you look at all the great footballers the common theme was street football. All the greats learnt the game on the street. With no adult interference.
I don't think we can replicate this in today's society but more investment in Futsal or outdoor 5x5 courts might help. These outdoor 5x5 courts are all over Germany, France, Spain and Holland.

The Pathways encourage to much wastage on many levels. The MVFC supporters must be happy that Nabbout never gave up.

That's very true Dimi, I did work out that by taking the Birtdays of Australian A-League players and there state of birth last year to work out Relative Age Effect and it does happen here.
I also worked out that only 2-4 players from Victoria will make the roster in the A-League from any one birth year, same as Qld and NNSW. NSW born players produce 6-8 players a year, WA SA TAS ACT altogether might produce 1 player every year.

More research in these areas would be good.

What I do know about Barcelona Youth Academy is that the juniors are expected to be humble and polite. This could not be more emphasised by the my Club members who visited there earlier this year.

As far as I know Nabbout was not on the radar of any pathway, he comes from Melbournes west which is very competitive. Entry into the pathway starts only by being selected for the VCL (Zone Comp) if you don't get selected you cannot be selected for State teams or NTC pathways. So as a 15, 16 17yo he would be competing for 16 spots in his zone team the West.
I think who has been telling you that he was told not to compete at zone is mistaken to put it kindly.

To give you a clearer picture of the Victorian System.

We have 8 metro and 4 country zones.
A junior competition is run every summer between the zones.
Focusing on boys we have U13, U14, U15 and U17 age groups.
This year each squad has 16 and 2 emergencies.
Any player already in NTC squads or skillaroos gets automatic positions in those zone squads based on the kids post code.
To be selected or identified in train on NTC or state squad programs you must play in the VCL this applies to skillaroos as well.
You are tied to a zone based on the club you play for.

Here in lies the problem, the Western Zone could put out 4 or 5 squads in each age group all better than the country zones and better than the players selected in at least three metro zones if not more.

This also applies to the North East Zone. So from these two zones alone you have as a minimum 60 odd kids per age group not competing in the VCL who are better players than those selected in other zones.
All these players are excluded from the pathways.

It is from this background that Nabbout was not identified.

It is this system that the FFV is trying to impose on the APL Clubs and what the fight is central to in Victoria.

Only 2 Clubs from Western Zone will selected into the APL they could have six or eight clubs. WIth this is the loss of corresponding juniors as this is capped like VCL.

D this is the reality is what I am railing against. A huge wastage of talent all due to the fact that the SYSTEM (Read Pathway) takes precedant over the interest of the player.

Some great insight and real scenarios what is happening and not.
Not being anywhere as informed as many of you here just an avid ol football player/follower/parent with 2 boys 1 especially showing some signs I'm just staggered at how many barriers there is to get through for any quality youth player to get noticed/selected and nurtured.
The system is far too complex/favourered not what you know who you know etc,add that just as our road rules/registrations etc should be the same across all states for a start.
The corrupt and biased heirachys at certain clubs across the country should be investigated by the FFA and outed, then again isn't the FFA in question at times ?!

The ongoing hurdle, the divide created since the commencent of the HAL from the ol NSL is still a large anvil on our game to go forward and for our Jnrs no ?

Talking to my contacts in UK I was asked did I know someone called Peter Jess, I'm sure Arthur knows him. he is going to set up an Academy in the UK which will be a platform for placing young Australian with talent into overseas clubs.( Be careful check everything before you jump).

Also from a close friend within the FFA all A-league clubs have been asked to take one or more A.I.S player when the time comes. At the recent Joeys campaign two well know agents one who is a contact of mine, has been closely monitoring this team.

I will only say that they where not impressed, do not be fooled by certain comments being made by some within FFA gloating about certain players.

Australia does have talent no doubt but you need to leave and go to where the teachers have no self interest!!. You see overseas they will tell you YES/NO after giving you a fare go.

Readings policy's is to not sign Australians unless in the National Team . I will confirm this tomorrow .

Tom Rogic indeed had talks with Reading sometime ago hope all goes well for him.

This is spot on. Also, previously Rogic's potential would have been identified by the AIS coaches and he would have been offered a non-residential spot which was put in place for local players.

This is a real problem the current APl trials in queensland, football queensland have nominated players and said they have to be picked and don't even trial.other kids that were picked in state squads have been picked into the teams even if they trialled terrible or not even in the top 16 players.other players who I watched the other night who were head and shoulders above many of the players i.e. in the top 4 or 5 were cut because they didn't have any one pushing for them.Other players who's parents are directors at the clubs or on committee's the kids are picked.This and identify kids at 10 years old and then leaving them in the pathway system even when at 12 or 13 they are no longer one of the better players.The other problem is certain coaches who have kids on the side have contacts in football queensland so these kids also get picked.If your child has talent get a good coach and play somewhere he enjoys playing and when he gets old enough send him overseas and a least they will look at him and give you a true report on where he is at or if they think he will/can make it.

I was praying for better this time.

In regards to players being chosen after they have stopped being a stand out player.
I think it is like the king with no clothes. No one wants to admit that they where wrong or that they just don't like the way they play now. So they keep selecting them so no one thinks they are stupid for leaving them out.

http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm

An interesdting comment by Ange Postecoglou on this mornings SEN Radio.

"AFL knows who the top 18 youth players are, unfortunately in our code we wouldn't know who ours are if they were sitting next to us having a coffee."

Also have a listen to Ange on Friday about what he sees in Andrew Naboutt;

http://www.sen.com.au/audioplayer/Audio/Melbourne-Victory-coach-Ange-Postecoglou/6558

Arthur until the corruption stops at all levels and we become more transparent you and I know it will not happen. I also think and many would not agree ,now possibly could be the time for our AFL friends to come into our game. The level of communication with Euro clubs very prominent, this week I attended a meeting in a club and caught up with a high profile AFL employee.

Also who would you trust to complete this list To be completely honest the majority do not trust the FFA. Let alone state federations. Not knowing Ange he comes across as a person who say's it as is .I feel he is a new age Manager clear mind no favourites its about the good of the team and club????.

Remind me, how many promising young AFL players are spread across the globe? :lol:

If Ange wants to know who are the top youth players he needs to get out and watch them play occasionally.

Edited by judy free: 19/11/2012 11:28:50 AM

I am comming to the firm belief that State teams and the selection process around them should be abolished. They are a waste of resources in a geographically large country.

As to other programs like NTC.

We would be better off making sure more of our youth had access to better coaching.

Great thread fellas =d> so pleased that people with current actual experience are posting, it has been a great read!

I can't say I see that as a good idea.

To abolish NTCs/state teams could possibly stunt the development of a broader pathway.
If the NTCs/state teams are nurtured and run by coaches with a genuine emphasis on development (which, I'll agree, doesn't seem to necessarily be the case with some/most, but these things can't/won't change overnight), these could branch into bigger things; think regional development centres. Given time to get the coaches required in a more widespread area, something like that can become a possibility and, as such, a bigger catchment for the talent pool, allowing for more players to be seen by all. (This includes being picked up quicker by A-League clubs on top of the regular state/AIS pathways.)
If we got rid of these entirely, there's less chance of these sorts of systems - or any at all - finding and developing any possible talent outside of the metro regions.

I would replace NTC programs with more SAP programs, so more kids go through rather than the narrow groups currently going through.
And I would expect they play for their clubs on the weekend and not in the isolated enviroment that is currently the case.

I may be an outsider (even if an interested one) but have to whole heartily agree with the widening of the pathways rather than the narrowing of them. To steal a pet saying from Chips, the cream rises to the top - the only problem is we tend to throw 90% of the milk away before it has time to do so.

Rather OT, but here's an 8y-o kid from the FootballStar Academy(can't vouch for what right/wrong they're doing) who was featured in a Herald Sun article today:

http://www.footballstaracademy.com.au/player_profiles.asp?id=1442

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/children-dream-of-being-sporting-superstars-rather-than-doctors-and-lawyers-when-they-grow-up/story-e6frf7kx-1226519903271

The whole pathway system is a flake.

The AIS choose players from the second tier of aus football. Meaning each states tier 1 state league clubs.

Each states tier 1 IE: NSWPL or VICPL or QLDPL clubs are heavily reliant on cash and resources provided to keep them viably operating. This causes conflicts in their selection processes which is then later pushed at AIS & NSWIS selectors. Therefore what is being offered to the AIS and NSWIS as options for selection is conflicted with respect to genuine talent. This is also why today many are complaining there is nothing in the way of talent coming through the system.

So basically the cream are not reaching the top as there is a cream filter in place in the tier 1 of each states top league. This does not allow the cream to reach AIS or NSWIS and instead fill these spots with players who are a conflict of best talent.

Anything below tier 1 in each state amounts to poorly run clubs with poor coaches. Tier 1 are at least semi pro in the way they run their clubs. Tier 2 are complete amatuers and contributing nothing.

Cream would rise to the top if their was not the massive processing removing the cream and leaving just watered down milk.

The whole system is terrible. The system being so bad and corrupt is also the reason for all these private academies leeching of people who the system failed.

Sorry to say this but football here has not changed in over 30 years from what i've seen. It doesn't appear to matter who replaces who, what clubs replace what clubs or which systems replace what systems.

The open trial processes are a pisstake to make people think there is open fair transparency and the best players will be selected. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In a nutshell the whole system is flawed/corrupted/conflicted from top to bottom.

The whole pathway system is a flake.

The AIS choose players from the second tier of aus football. Meaning each states tier 1 state league clubs.

Each states tier 1 IE: NSWPL or VICPL or QLDPL clubs are heavily reliant on cash and resources provided to keep them viably operating. This causes conflicts in their selection processes which is then later pushed at AIS & NSWIS selectors. Therefore what is being offered to the AIS and NSWIS as options for selection is conflicted with respect to genuine talent. This is also why today many are complaining there is nothing in the way of talent coming through the system.

So basically the cream are not reaching the top as there is a cream filter in place in the tier 1 of each states top league. This does not allow the cream to reach AIS or NSWIS and instead fill these spots with players who are a conflict of best talent.

Anything below tier 1 in each state amounts to poorly run clubs with poor coaches. Tier 1 are at least semi pro in the way they run their clubs. Tier 2 are complete amatuers and contributing nothing.

Cream would rise to the top if their was not the massive processing removing the cream and leaving just watered down milk.

The whole system is terrible. The system being so bad and corrupt is also the reason for all these private academies leeching of people who the system failed.

Sorry to say this but football here has not changed in over 30 years from what i've seen. It doesn't appear to matter who replaces who, what clubs replace what clubs or which systems replace what systems.

The open trial processes are a pisstake to make people think there is open fair transparency and the best players will be selected. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I agree

+1 Aussiesrus....
It pains me to agree on this, like you having seen this in my youth some 30yrs ago as well I see this again and worse imo. Started 2 seasons ago with my 2nd son.
I was just at a Trial last night for he, watching from the sideline another Father I know had mentioned of a Trial attended some 2wks ago I couldn't be there, he pointed out this solid moving forward cutting through the defense had shown great glimpe's at this prior Trial and was staggered he wasn't included/picked, out 1st culling.
Having watched him most of the night - he sure scored some goals but held the ball too long at times, this probably worked against him but could be coached out him at only 12 turning 13 next year.
I asked were the other forward options much better ? only a few but not worthy of being out so soon.

Another hurdle - my boy having played for a current PL club last 2seasons, new youth coach comes in for 2013 and the Trials were hardly open to anyone, I'm advised he brought over some 7-9 players from the area he came from and before we parents knew it Teams had been picked closed shop full stop a month or so back.
That meant none of last seasons Div1 boys had a chance at all...yer loving youth football not !

Edited by M.L.: 21/11/2012 06:28:13 PM

Totally sucks but
Don't despair I know of a few players that over the years have been mistakenly overlooked they went back to club had great seasons and came back a few years later better than ever.

Edited by krones3: 21/11/2012 07:33:05 PM

Edited by krones3: 21/11/2012 07:33:34 PM

You see, cream ALWAYS rises to the top.

But in truth 90% of these "mistakenly ovelooked" comments are made by clueless dads who refuse to accept thier kid's own genuine lack of talent. Even if rejected by multiple coaches and selectors over many years.

Can't comment on it as I have no kids, never around the situation with trials etc.

No need to be harsh though - We're all going on about the lack of pathways for kids and the troubles with getting kids selected. It seems everyone has lost notice of the fact that talent identification is a skill unto itself, why do you think scouts for big clubs get paid big bucks?

Judy,

That's the way. Give it to these clueless dads. None of them have ever played football and are all blind at the trials.

Never mind the informed highly skilled football selectors that unthankfully give up their time from their busy daytime jobs as potatoe farmers or toilet cleaners at woolies or the morbidly obese couch potatoe coaches that struggle to put down their 5 pizza's and 3 garlic bread dinners. The ethnic coaches that can't say no to his relatives but knows "no" in english. The coach who respects the sponsors kids. The coach who knows who pays his coaching wages. The coaches pub drinking buddies. The coach who forks out 50k to have the job because his coaching skills amount to zip.

These are the people who give up their time to make these informed football selections that are developing the youth and shaping the future of top tier football in this country. Let's all crack a tinnie and celebrate their contributions for without them we couldn't have failed so miserably!!

Han Berger is right in one respect. The people and coaches making these decisions are generally poorly skilled or convaluted in the art of talent identification. Han won't make that mistake when his redraft is put together. Should extend his tenure by a few mill.

I've seen trials where in half a game the unsigned triallists flogged the signed side by 8-0. And yep they completely culled the 8-0 in half a game winning side. I've seen too many outstanding players culled and duds shaking hands at the end of the trials for my liking over the years. If that doesn't tell a person there is something seriously wrong nothing does.

Having said that though there are some (very few) TD's and coaches I agree with and highly respect their decisions. These are very few and far between. We need more like them and less like the above.

In a nutshell there are too many side issues and most political affecting the selection process. I do not know how these issues can resolved but until it does the cream will have such limitations in their opportunities that most just simply give up. This is also reflected in NSWPL spectator numbers. 2-3 hundred people attend these matches and are mostly relatives of players because the general public know of the issues and refuse to pay to watch the duds play. The general public would rather save the entry fee and go watch the local park football and spend their hard earned on a snag roll and coffee. Even the local park clubs get bigger attendances than NSWPL first grade matches.

Not all dads have never played football or are blind at trials and enjoy highly skilled jobs as tomato farmers, cleaners and coach potatoe's.

Some dads actually know what they are talking about and the general public can't ALL be wrong ;)

Edited by Aussiesrus: 22/11/2012 06:41:01 AM

Here it comes :-({|=

Edited by Aussiesrus: 22/11/2012 07:17:08 AM

Not harsh, just don't see the value in perpetuating a suburban myth.

Behind nearly every "overlooked talent" is a father who's had his dreams burnt.

Not doing their kids any life favours by playing the eternal blame game.

But nonetheless they are fathere of kids who are CONSTANTLY being overlooked by numerous coaches, year after year after year. Penny drop, much? Fathers are generally rotten judges of their kid's true ability.

As for political selections? That's life. Happens in all sports and business. That said, my experiences have repeatedly shown that any political selections have entirely been with the 15th or 16th squad member i.e. fringe players. The first 10 or 12 are the easy selections. The selection of the remaining 3, 4 or 5 is where the coach has to work to earn his beer money.

As I've always consistantly said, if you don't like the selection process at club A then go elsewhere. But at some stage you need to face up to life's realities.

Behind every "overlooked talent" is a father who has watched his kids talent and dreams burnt. When I say talent. I mean the truly talented. Not the ones who fail year after year after year. Kapish?

Your close but no cigar.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 22/11/2012 07:26:15 AM

Club B, C, D..........

The cubans are on me.

Damn gimme one of those cubans and i'll crack open a nicely aged tawny and pass you a glass.

Club A might well have no room due to an overload of talent. Club B, C and D might not be so fortunate. Same results at the end of the day. Too many duds shaking hands and too much truly talented walking the plank. This is the wrong part.

The first 10-12 are usually developed by the club inwhich their selection is convaluted by earlier processes. When you speak of the 3,4,5 plus last 2 players the higher you go the more the decision is made for the coaches. These figures appear high in the political effects which you must admit is a huge reduction of spaces for talent.

Anyway when I talk of talent. I mean the truly talented from a neutral perspective looking at ALL the players at the trials. Not the ones who fail year after year after year. For these parents the penny does drop eventually and they send their kids to train snails at snail races or they take up tic tac toe which suits their abilities better.

I think your basing your views on selection processes you have experienced at one possibly two clubs ONLY. You need to get around and see what is happening at most other clubs trials to get a better idea of what most people are complaining about.

I think you will change your views once you see the bigger picture.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 22/11/2012 08:05:58 AM

Been reading with a bit of interest for a couple of reasons.

1) Football-wise, is it better to cull the whole system and start from scratch? It's been suggested that we need to get rid of the state teams and open up "elite coaching" to a greater number of kids. Would that widen or shrink the pool of talent? And are we likely to produce more Rogic's and Antonises or fewer as a result?

I understand about parent politics and it's a blight on ALL sports in this country. How do you suggest we get rid of/minimise it?

2) I may be about to dive into the rep thing in about 12 months. My 11 y/o has good talent though isn't consistent enough - almost unplayable one week and "back to the pack" the next. Which is why I am keeping him out of reps for another 12 months until he finds that measure of consistency. If he doesn't I won't bother with reps - I am not married to the idea and my ego isn't tied into his football, though I've had a lot to do with developing him as a player of course. I don't care if he becomes a great footballer or not, just want to see his abilities developed and him play to his potential, and for him to enjoy the game.

As someone who's never had anything to do with the youth rep scene, what should my expectations be? (not of him but of the process)

As a father you have two options:

a) drop kid off at trials and return later for pickup

b) join the sideline stalkers and watch, note and rate the quality of your kid's every move and convince yourself he's a shoo-in

And a tip; I always negatively scored any kid who pitched up with his dad in matching tracksuits.

I know the process ATB, intimately.

At the end of the day 95% of the whinging and whining comes from parents of fringe players.

And another free tip; if a kid isn't among the top 3 or 4 players in top tier youth league then parents would be infinitely better off channeling their enthusiasm into their kid's education. Unfortunately that rarely happens.

Couple of "cliche" comments JF...I hope not directed over my way though I expect your reply to say in general.
It sure does have some merit from observations be it in any sport but its not my dream FYI.
I'm just giving my kid the opportunity at His want and its up to him to make it or break it as I advise him, walk off knowing you have put in 110% thats all you can do.

I call BS that in selections the first 10-12 are the obvious stand outs - 1-3 are questionable imo here and there no doubt about it....
Ofcourse the fringe parents would whinge, thats in every sport we can all agree here, matching trackys etc LOL yes they should all STFU !
Your arrogance JF is understandable probably having been vented by the many whinging parent over the years I would feel the same but there IS us honest and good ones who know our kids limitations, I can't stand getting involved I keep away most times the opposite sideline people watching, it sure is humourous and sad at times.

Yes, agree, my arrogance is obvious.

No other way around it if people want to hear the cold, hard and sobering reality (sans a 5,000 word essay).

The real sad part about all this? When these crazed parents (90% are at least borderline yet not conscious of it) kids hit mid 20's or early 30's they'll look back at their youth (when they were highly influenced by parents) and wonder WTF was that all about and for what reason?

Sockah is a sport. To be enjoyed. Parents need to remind themselves that it is their kid's independent leisure time, not theirs. It's not a pathway to riches, fame or indeed a way of life. Any bragging rights that parents feel they've earnt via their kids (apparent) success is short-lived.





Edited by judy free: 22/11/2012 11:34:59 AM

I think I've written this before, but here goes again;

In elite junior/youth sport there are three categories of parents.

1) crazed whining sideline stalkers who hate the coach and speak negatively about everybody

2) fanatics who outwardly love the coach and shout loudly about the fact at any opportunity

3) laid back realists who watch and enjoy from afar

Categories 1 and 2 trade places regularly over the course of a season. Category 3 is a smallish group who, if in the system long enough, can become contaminated.

In short, elite junior/youth sport is a veritabe shitfight. Always will be, regardless of which sport or the location. Put it down to human nature. At the end of the day if you can't stand the heat then get outa the kitchen. And, may I suggest that every so often look at yourself in the mirror and make an honest assessment of your own role as a supposed supporting parent.