What happens if 50 clubs withold their registration fees....Is the FFV insolvent?


What happens if 50 clubs withold their registration fees....Is the FFV...

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Troy5
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This was released yesterday



To All Clubs & Co-Signatories – Release to FFV, FFA and Media

Invitations have been sent out for Monday's, 26th Aug, NPLV workshop.

There we will consult, discuss and agree on a framework for the 'New NPLV' that works for both community and NPL clubs in Victoria.

At this meeting we will also provide an update of the day's proceedings in court.

We will have as guest the Chairman of the PFA (Professional Footballers Australia), who will outline issues we need to consider in the new model.


This is a historic meeting of the clubs and we would like to commend all of you for taking the difficult but principled decision to stand together and achieve a successful NPLV model.

Have attached some recent articles and releases for all to read over the weekend.




The Age
Michael Lynch, Sat 17 Aug

Clubs take FFV to court
http://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/c ... 2s2bz.html


The ill feeling between Football Federation Victoria and most of the leading clubs in the state shows little sign of abating, with the clubs having instituted legal proceedings against the FFV on Friday.
The dispute over the creation of the National Premier League Victoria drags on.
The clubs want the FFV to abandon the current, disputed model that, they argue, does not serve the sport's future development, and instead embrace one which allows them to remain community focused while fielding sides in the top flight.

Sandringham Soccer Club
http://www.sandringhamsoccerclub.org.au/home.aspx

To all Members
After undertaking exhaustive due diligence in relation to the National Premier Leagues Victoria (NPLV) – I would like to advise that Sandringham Soccer Club did not submit an expression of interest (EOI) due to the following reasons:

Financial model being unviable and the additional financial risk being borne by the club and its officeholders
Shifting of responsibilities by the FFV on to the clubs in underpinning the operation of the competition
Deviation of the FFV model from that prescribed by the FFA National Competition Review (NCR) recommendations
Poor implementation and consultation process of the FFV
No consideration of the impact on the Women’s game, in light of yet to be released NCR for women and girls
Lack of any forward marketing plan for the NPLV to attract sponsorship and funding to the clubs
Level of participation (40 weeks) and cost to juniors of $1,700 per annum (minimum) is excessive and unmanageable for a large numbers of a families.
The NPLV does not fit with our mission, which is…To strive to create a pathway that improves the skills and team play of all members via structured programs. These programs are designed to teach the technical and tactical aspects of soccer in a community-based environment, which promotes fun, friendship and respect through team sport participation.

From the outset the club has supported the National Competition Review as prescribed by the FFA and any improvements for the betterment of the game and continues to do so but we do not believe the FFV’s approach in this instance is the correct way to proceed.
If you would like any further clarification of our position please do not hesitate to ring me direct on ....... or John Hurley on ......
Yours sincerely
Simon Polinelli – President

The Zonal Problem
http://melbournesoccer.blogspot.com.au/
No, not a tactical discussion but a look at one of the major stumbling blocks in the creation of the NPLV.

In the great plan of the FFV for the future of Victorian football, there would be an elite NPLV club in each of the zones it has divided the state into. Each zone then has it's community leagues, with the clubs in it developing players for the elite club.

Nice in theory, but putting it into practice was always going to prove problematic.

Take the Frankston area for example. Frankston Pines, Langwarrin, Peninsula Strikers, Seaford United, Skye United, Baxter and Mornington. Large area, with long established clubs, mostly with British heritage which does not come with the baggage of other ethnic groups.

Have these clubs banded together to make a consortium for an NPLV license? Is there a club that stands out as being the most elite amongst them? No.

Why not? Does the FFV understand why not?

Most club volunteers do what they do because of a long term attachment to their club. They may have played there, coached there, or started attending games because their friends or children did. These bonds being established is the lifeblood of the game.

With people already loyal to their club, most would be uninterested in switching to a new entity simply because it was to be labelled "elite". Under the promotion/relegation set up which has always existed in the Victorian game, their clubs have always had the chance to aspire to be amongst the elite. These clubs have had their highs and lows, and established genuine rivalries. To anoint one as elite and expect the others to fall in line and be subservient to the chosen club would be the utmost folly.

So by the Bay, the glamour of the NPLV has not seen a clamour from volunteers/administrators willing to get on board by starting up an elite venture. With no standout elite club that the others would accept getting a license without resentment, the area could go unrepresented.

Now the issue become more difficult when you look at other zones. Ones which have clubs from diverse ethnic backgrounds, some of which may recently have been at war with each other. Zones which have two or three clubs already playing at the highest level. If the FFV expects people to put aside such grudges, they need to get some experts on human nature on their already ample payroll.

Moving from a promotion/relegation system to a closed shop top tier was never going to be easy, and given the backlash even if it comes to fruition it may not prove workable. With clubs already feeling the FFV does not support them, becoming officially designated second class citizens is not likely to see many working too hard to support the elite club of their zone.

It makes you wonder how well those that mapped out the NPLV masterplan knew the landscape.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/coc ... -NPL/73054

Extracts from FFA website, Mick Cockerill's article 19th August 2013

Looking across the list of qualifiers got me thinking. The era of ethnic-backed clubs is not over. Not by a long shot. In fact it's conceivable four of the five inaugural NPL finallists - Sydney United (Croatia), Canberra FC (Croatia), Olympic FC (Greece) and whoever qualifies from South Australia (four of the top five clubs have strong Italian heritage) - will be drawn from ethnic communities.

Those communities are still providing the passion, enthusiasm, finance, support, determination and vision to set the benchmarks for others to follow. Look further afield at the non-aligned NPL states - Western Australia, Victoria and Northern NSW - and it's the same story. The ethnic-backed clubs continue to clean up.

The point here is to make sure nature takes its course. As the NPL revolution gathers momentum, my sense is some state federations are being tempted to airbrush history, and force ethnic clubs out of the equation. They're trying to over-engineer an outcome. Wrong.

By far the best solution for the rebirth of second-tier football is to bring the best of the ethnic clubs along for the ride. Those clubs which are willing to be inclusive, not exclusive. Around the country, I see plenty of them. And those clubs which don't broaden their base? They'll join the long, long, list of ethnic-backed clubs in the mausoleum. That's a dead certainty. The reminders are everywhere. Ringwood Wilhelmina, Yugal Prague, anyone?

I've got no doubt the NPL has the ability to unlock the huge potential of state-based competitions - competitions which will not only underpin the Hyundai A-League, but possibly spawn a national second division. But to get the right outcome requires a delicate process. It needs to be handled with care. First base is to respect those who have made a significant contribution

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 50 Co-signatory clubs combined constitute over 100,000 football club members / supporters / youth teams / juniors / sub juniors / parents / coaches / administrators.
We call upon the FFV to respect the concerns of its clubs and act as its mandate requires it to do; in the best interests of the game.

Our united position on the NPLV
1. We are all committed to a successful NPLV model rollout in 2014 which works for both community and NPL clubs
2. The NPLV should be financially viable for all clubs, modelling by clubs reflects otherwise.
3. That the NPLV be introduced after proper consultation with the clubs and after taking genuine account of their concerns.
4. To date the FFV has not properly consulted the clubs but rather has merely informed us of how its proposed model will operate. Even the peak Council body that represents all councils, Parks Leisure Australia, in a letter attached to all clubs (29th July) made reference and supported all of these similar concerns about the FFV's approach and failure to properly consult.
5. We are united and determined to work for the good of the game in Victoria. It is unprecedented in Australia that 50 clubs/association have come together in a united way.
6. No one can reasonably argue that the NPLV could proceed viably, let alone succeed, without the participation of the top 30-50 clubs in Victoria at all levels: Men, Women, Junior Boys and Girls.
7. The 50 clubs are all run by volunteers who have no personal financial interest in any of these issues and are working for a viable NPLV model. The contribution and legacy of all these clubs, large, small and everything in between, should be recognised, respected and preserved. That will not happen under the proposed model.

It's disappointing that we need take to task the organisation that we fund.
We will succeed and do so in readiness for a new NPLV model in 2014.

On behalf of the 50 Co-signatory Clubs


Edited by troy5: 25/8/2013 08:35:45 AM
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Mahony,
yep, WA & NTH NSW have the same roughly football participants as Victoria

Next

A few things are certain in all this saga

a) No matter what happens with the courts, the clubs will not stop til they nail their goals

b) The NPL is more than a "youth training factory". It needs strong clubs to be a successful second tier of football (under the Aleague) that attracts viewers and spectators. It needs clubs which can attract more than a handfull of junior parents that head off home after their son's/daughters game.

c) The FFV Board & Management have not worked in the interests of the code or the clubs

d) The FFV Board & Management need to step aside. Their presence will only polarise the situation further. New people need to be found that will work to the "Core Values" found on their web site

e) If they do not leave. The FFV will be replaced with a new Outsourced Service Provider. The FFV Board will then be liable financially. One has already resigned on advice of her lawyer.

I'm starting to feel sorry for the Aleague clubs too, that are fighting to be heard too. Have attached a link

http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/a-league/a-league-owners-step-up-battle-with-ffa-to-get-greater-influence-in-running-of-game/story-e6frf4gl-1226681092073





All administrators need to be reminded. We need strong clubs for a successful code……. it works all round the world

Improve the coaching standards, improve the facilities, improve the admin/financing, improve the marketing & broadcasting.....yes yes yes yes & yes

But that is all they should be involved with

Edited by troy5: 22/8/2013 09:32:53 AM
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Troy5 wrote:
Mahony,
You're way off the mark

Look no further then NthNSW model. The Regional clubs in Vic will probably move to something similar.

50 Plus clubs in Melb is basically 80% of "football in Vic",
Both in attendance, revenue, sponsorship, juniors etc etc

The FFV will be insolvent and wound up,the FFA will be glad to see the back of them.

A new 'Outsouced Service Provider' will provide the required services to the clubs....and way cheaper than what it costs to fund 60-70 people at the FFV presently.

WA Fed runs it with 18 people
NthNSW Fed runs it with around 15

Edited by troy5: 21/8/2013 11:18:03 AM


Your evidence for me being "way off the mark" has no relationship to the post I made? If you disagree with me on the NPLV that is fine. But when making a claim that I am "way off the mark" at least address the information in my post.

Now to your new substantive point. It’s simply unconstitutional (I mean THE Constitution – not the FFA Inc. or FFV Inc. constitutions). The FFA could not adopt this model even if it wanted to (expect for the ACT and NT). This is precisely why it didn’t do so post-Crawford. The FFV could however restructure the way it operates however and be 'guided' (forced to some extent)in doing so by the political/financial authority of the FFA as happened in NSW. Now, do some basic demographics that compare the size of the respective populations of Nth NSW, WA and on a proportional basis tell them the ideal number of FFV staff. Even a person with high school mathematics can figure that out - even allowing from economies of scale.

If a Superior court makes findings against the FFV’s model such that it is ‘killed off’ – I would expect the FFA to step in. But it doesn’t automatically follow that its intervention will be concerned with anything other than exercising its constitutional power to direct the FFV within certain constraints, namely, requiring fresh elections.

If you think clubs leaving the FFV structure or the FFA abolishing the FFV will solve the NPL situation then you are living in a fantasyland.


Edited by mahony: 21/8/2013 12:24:23 PM

Edited by mahony: 21/8/2013 12:26:02 PM
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Troy5 wrote:
Mahony,

Look no further then NthNSW model. The Regional clubs in Vic will probably move to something similar.

50 Plus clubs in Melb is basically 80% of "football in Vic"

The FFV will be insolvent and wound up,the FFA will be glad to see the back of them.


So the theme is anti-FFV, I get it. Make one post and continuously post in that thread.


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Mahony,
You're way off the mark

Look no further then NthNSW model. The Regional clubs in Vic will probably move to something similar.

50 Plus clubs in Melb is basically 80% of "football in Vic",
Both in attendance, revenue, sponsorship, juniors etc etc

The FFV will be insolvent and wound up,the FFA will be glad to see the back of them.

A new 'Outsouced Service Provider' will provide the required services to the clubs....and way cheaper than what it costs to fund 60-70 people at the FFV presently.

WA Fed runs it with 18 people
NthNSW Fed runs it with around 15




Edited by troy5: 21/8/2013 11:18:03 AM
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Game Change wrote:
are you suggesting there is some long term contract with the ffv in place with all the clubs? surely it is just year to year? can't the clubs just give notice for next year and do their own thing? 5o clubs would be a big enough comp and it would make little difference to most people. insurance is the least of the issues and it may just be a matter of holding out for a couple of years while the ffv caves in....




No - I am suggesting that damages are awarded, not just on a "general" basis for any non-compliance with an existing contract (which as you say, is likely only to be for one year at a guess) but in "punitive" terms also for the damage done to Victorian football and its interests. This is where the big $$$ are.... Seriously big $$$$

One form of damages is designed to compensate for identifiable financial losses - the other is designed to punish the liable party for their actions (it is designed to hurt as the financial equivalent of a custodial sentence if you like). Our system of civil law remedies is very sophisticated and well developed.


Edited by mahony: 21/8/2013 10:46:07 AM

Edited by mahony: 21/8/2013 10:46:49 AM
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What a shitfight. I don't know enough about what's going on down in Vic but as a football fan I just hope it's resolved quickly.

The thing is that I don't trust the objectivity of either side's commentary on the issue so am completely in the dark as to whether one side is right and the other side is wrong or if the truth does indeed lie somewhere in the middle.

But to quote a phrase, this is "bad for business". I hope common sense prevails and quickly. No football fan wants to see this get out of hand any further.
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I wonder how many Victorian based players, playing outside the A-League or NYL, have featured in national team selections.
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Not much, i'd say 20K on average, some clubs will get more, lots more, and some will have gotten absolutely nothing.

FFA recently relased changes to this, doubling the amount paid to NPL clubs for A-League contracts.

The issue isn't training compensation, the issue is that they'd be playing in a non FFA, and as such non FIFA approved competition, which quite simply means they would have no possibility to play for their country, at any level, and this includes your joeys, etc. So where is the incentive for talented 17-23 year olds to play in a break away league. This exact thing has been seen in the futsal leagues at the moment, where there is a pretty strong non-FFA endorsed comp, yet non of those players have any affiliation with anything outside of that comp.

Now, am i correct in assuming the FFA has been approached about endorsing a breakway league not so long ago, and that was shot down in flames?
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The follow up question, Big Wally, would be "how much training compensation/transfer fees" do you think the top, say, 20 Victorian clubs have earned over the last five years anyway? And how would those training comp/transfer fees compare to the losses likely via the NPLV, or even comparative to current costs of the FFV?
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Issue would be easy enough, any of the 5 a side operators will attest to that. The bigger thing is that FFA would need to approve the comp, or its not a FIFA approved comp, which means no training comp/transfer fees, no representative football. Essentially, shooting yourselves in the foot, especially the "elite clubs". And then having no real "pathway" to higher levels of football will mean that the talented kids that don't "love" the club will move on over to an affiliated club, and then when you eventually reapply and start from the bottom up, you would have lost those talented kids forever.

But hey, it'll be worth a laugh for us in NSW....
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are you suggesting there is some long term contract with the ffv in place with all the clubs? surely it is just year to year? can't the clubs just give notice for next year and do their own thing? 5o clubs would be a big enough comp and it would make little difference to most people. insurance is the least of the issues and it may just be a matter of holding out for a couple of years while the ffv caves in....
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Benjamin wrote:
Arthur wrote:
Troy5 wrote:
If the 50 clubs decide to merely mention that they are withholding thier registration fees to the FFV, which equates to nearly $2 million, the FFV is trading insolvent.

The current board members are than financially liable

That ought to concentrate their minds to start working to meeting their "Core Values" which they have pasted on their web site


If club "withhold" their rego fees, then the FFV will send the debt collectors after the club. Therefore it would become an issue for the Directors of the club "withholding" payment of registration fees.

I understand the ploy but going wrong way about it, not FFV problem but club problem.


Before calling in the debt collectors the FFV would have to go through the process of serving overdue notices, etc. If the clubs are clever and simply 'delay' payments indefinitely rather than withhold them outright, then the FFV are forced to meet their operating costs out of existing funds. If, however, they don't have existing funds then they are in trouble... Unable to pay their own wages for a start.


The Supreme Court would have no problem looking at this rather straight forward contract law case, stripping participating clubs of their assets for their breach and awarding the FFV massive damages (general and punitive I suspect).

All this would do is and ensure that no league competition went ahead next year while simultaneously destroying the clubs conjoined as defendants. Indeed the FFV would ultimately turn a massive profit, however the development of football in Victoria would be setback for generations.

This is fantasy land thinking.
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Dunno, where does their registration card come from? Does the club print it's own?

Does the club run its own comp, or are the kids playing in a comp with other teams. Where do u think the kids are registered...lol
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Arthur wrote:
Troy5 wrote:
If the 50 clubs decide to merely mention that they are withholding thier registration fees to the FFV, which equates to nearly $2 million, the FFV is trading insolvent.

The current board members are than financially liable

That ought to concentrate their minds to start working to meeting their "Core Values" which they have pasted on their web site


If club "withhold" their rego fees, then the FFV will send the debt collectors after the club. Therefore it would become an issue for the Directors of the club "withholding" payment of registration fees.

I understand the ploy but going wrong way about it, not FFV problem but club problem.


Before calling in the debt collectors the FFV would have to go through the process of serving overdue notices, etc. If the clubs are clever and simply 'delay' payments indefinitely rather than withhold them outright, then the FFV are forced to meet their operating costs out of existing funds. If, however, they don't have existing funds then they are in trouble... Unable to pay their own wages for a start.
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Been watching the developments in Vic through this forum for some time - this thread made me register.

This is a great point, but I would suggest not to withhold anything from this year that is already due or should have been paid, but next year.......with that sort of money insurance is no problem, nor is anything else for that matter.

50 clubs is more than enough to set up a breakaway association/federation.....more than enough to play competition......

It's about time the "the show" stood up to the administrators who still believe, misguidedly, that building an empire is what its all about - WRONG - Build the GAME and you will gain your empire - no empire without foundations.....sadly the misguided view starts at FIFA and travels rapidly out through all the regions.
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Question is are the kids registered with their club or the ffv?


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Same thing as any other business, if your contracted customers decide to not pay you, because they don't like you, then you're in trouble. However, if an agreement exists between yourself and the customers, and there is no reason for them not to pay, other than they don't like you, or don't agree with everything you've done, even theough they didnt have to use you as a supplier, then there is no court in the land that will rule in the disgruntled customers favour.

My advice, tread carefully, not paying rego fees means kids wil have no insurance, so any injury means the club could go under. Not exactly the brightest idea, is it?
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Troy5 wrote:
If the 50 clubs decide to merely mention that they are withholding thier registration fees to the FFV, which equates to nearly $2 million, the FFV is trading insolvent.

The current board members are than financially liable

That ought to concentrate their minds to start working to meeting their "Core Values" which they have pasted on their web site


If club "withhold" their rego fees, then the FFV will send the debt collectors after the club. Therefore it would become an issue for the Directors of the club "withholding" payment of registration fees.

I understand the ploy but going wrong way about it, not FFV problem but club problem.
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TheSelectFew wrote:
FFS keep it to one thread.


This.

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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FFS keep it to one thread.


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If the 50 clubs decide to merely mention that they are withholding thier registration fees to the FFV, which equates to nearly $2 million, the FFV is trading insolvent.

The current board members are than financially liable

That ought to concentrate their minds to start working to meeting their "Core Values" which they have pasted on their web site

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