Ok, you want hard statistics? Here's why men get paid more:
There's absolutely 0% chance of men getting pregnant.
And Women take more sick days

Firstly, an apology for my behaviour in some of my posts. I am quite passionate about equality (gender, racial, sexual and religious) and arced up a little at a few of you being genuinely confrontational with your anti-feminist opinions. That is not a good way to encourage dialogue and I own my part of the fault in that. I will endeavor to be a little more level headed.


How can change be made if we don't recognise the need for it? I see disadvantage, so I don't need to find empathy. I was suggesting that if you can't see the inequality that you need more exposure to it. Probably a bit dismissive of your feelings, apologies if I offended you- I will refrain from attacking you personally. I would appreciate if you extend a similar courtesy and refrain from personal attacks on my ideological alignments. If you are happy with this I am more than happy to discuss anything you see as a problem with feminism.


So women should be paid less, despite being equally capable, because they have a baby put in them by a man? (also, I thought women weren't having babies before their 40's now according to the first page of this thread :P)

Our leave system is patriarchal and reinforces inequality- In Sweden each child entitles the parents to 480 days of parental leave to be divided as the parents wish. This is far more equitable, and a shining example of gender equality. Our system reinforces the "men earn the money, women make the home" ideology. This ensures women aren't equal in the workforce.

Should I carry this into a thread about feminism? I am happy to do a Q and A and dialogue about what it means to be feminist if people are genuinely open to it and aren't going to be aggressively dismissive.

And until men can get pregnant and carry a baby to term it will stay that way.

Obviously women are not 'equally capable' if they're taking more sick days and thus being more of a liability.

At least spell it correctly.

Feminism is the result of men treating women like they are nothing, devaluing them to nothing. It is also a result of the overvaluing of money and the power that it gives to those who have it.

Women take no more sick days than they are entitled, me have access to these as well. This doesn't reflect on capability to perform the job at all. It reflects on the expectation society has for men to toughen up (to their physical detriment) and for women to look after the children (you will find that in most industries carer's leave falls under personal leave- and thus shares statistics with sick leave. Women are expected to perform the carers role.) This isn't equitable, and whilst there are some male issues it on the balance of it all prevents women from attaining equality in the workplace. Which brings me back to 'out leave system is inherently patriarchal and flawed'

Men don't need to get pregnant to instate equality in parental responsibilities and reap the flow-on benefits of equality in the workplace. Sweden is an example of a country getting it right (and their system was introduced in the 70s!) and it's no surprise that as a result they have a far better record on workplace gender equality (and overall gender equality.)

Out of interest, do you actually believe women are inferior to (less capable than) men professionally, and if so what leads you to this conclusion?

Noted, no offence intended btw- I just knew you were someone Afro had run-ins with and as such a good example of someone he wouldn't want representing him as a member of the forum.

What people are entitled to by law doesn't mean that it isn't costly and/or a liability for the business. Both pregnancy and sick days are to the detriment of the employer from a financial and business perspective. Little wonder they aren't as willing to invest as much money when they get a subsequent inferior return.

Not offended, just joking about it. And I am loopy by societies standards, I think sex outside marriage is wrong and I hate Christmas. I am also not that in favor of feminism.

Scoll, I admire your striving for equality but the best we can do is equality of choices. Women and men are biologically different and to attempt to equate them is to fly in the face of nature.

Without a doubt though, if men and women are receiving different rates of pay for the same work that needs to be righted.

Edited by thupercoach: 4/12/2013 03:42:03 AM

The term you are looking for is Mangina White Knight.

Edited by Captain Haddock: 4/12/2013 12:48:39 PM

Which is why feminism is necessary, to reduce the burden of expectation on women to have to be the parent that takes all the leave and remove workplace inequality. It is not a case of just make men take the same amount of leave as women currently need to, but to divide the accepted amount that society deems necessary for raising a child at the early stages of life and assign it over both parents. The parents can then decide who takes what ratio of the leave (Swedish law preserves the right of each parent to a minimum of 60 days for themselves) which allows both parents to bond with the child and effectively keep working part time if desired (which helps business due to less training and hiring/secondment required)

(By the way, the actual state of being pregnant barely affects the amount of time a woman works. The leave cost is post-delivery, and there is only a traditional IR structure preventing that being equal.)

You seem to be suggesting that workplace inequality exists because women don't have equality in the workplace (the burden is on them to take parental leave, carers leave, there is a stigma against hiring women in case they get pregnant- whether that is something they want or not.) I completely agree that things aren't equal, they do not need to be inequitable however. There are modern sociological examples where women aren't a greater risk to employers due to more equitable IR laws. This is better for business, and better for people. This is what feminism wants- not to hire women because they are women and its "not fair" not to, but to ultimately remove socially obsolete barriers of inequality that prevent women from being as employable.


Yes, men and women are biologically different. That doesn't mean women should be objectified in the media, or have barriers against their ability to climb the professional ladder, or be judged for how sexual they are or aren't, or be held responsible for being assaulted due to what they are wearing, or what they drank, or where they were. Nor should we dictate how they should dress, how much makeup they should wear, how much of their hair they shave or do not shave. Equality doesn't just refer to being the exact same as one another, it is not allowing society to dictate an advantage for one side to the detriment of another for the purpose of reinforcing tradition.


Hey, to each their own. If you value marriage on its literal meaning then the concept of pre-marital sex being immoral is more than understandable. I personally don't put value on mono-amory or the common accepted understanding of marriage so I don't have a problem with it. Why aren't you in favour of feminisim?


The very fact you feel the need to liken me to a woman to belittle my opinions is a shining example of how sexism is alive and well in modern society. Thank you :)

Has there been any posts about why men are avoiding marriage yet?

Do any young forumers here see themselves getting married any time soon? Why/why not?

No, because I actually need a girlfriend first.

I do know of a few people who have been/are engaged. I recently reconnected with my best friend from primary school. He's 19 now and got married to his girlfriend of 3 and a half years (who's also 19) about three weeks ago. Crazy.

The head girl from my year at school is engaged, and she's getting married early next year, her and her bf have only been together a couple of years. A girl in the year above me got engaged last week to another guy from school after about a year and a half together. He's a few years older, great guy and I was speaking to him the other day at athletics and he said they're holding off until 2015 to get married. Also know my best friend's ball date got married earlier this year to his gf of one and a half years, both of them are only a year older than me.

Interesting to note, all those couples are religious. I don't know if the decision is influenced by the guy wanting to have sex (which I hope not, it's probably not a factor in the 2nd case because i know what the guy is like), or if now they're 18 they can do it, or whatever.

I don't know any non-religious couples who are married or engaged. One of my athletics mates, who was 20 at the time, proposed to his 17 year old girlfriend of 9 months last year, which everyone was shocked by. I think they were planning on a long engagement, but she ended it when she cheated on him with his friend. Prsonally, i think they were too young to be married and hadn't known each other long enough, so it was good in a way, but at the same time I felt sorry for him and haven't forgiven her yet and I doubt I ever will.

My best mate has been going out with his girlfriend for roughly 18 months now, and they're pretty much perfect together. He could propose now and she'd say yes, however, they've talked about it marriage and discussed it, and they both agree they're too young (interestingly, non-religious). He's told me he'll wait until they graduate from uni (another three years) and have jobs (which apparently shouldn't be too hard, considering they're two of Murdoch Uni's top law students) and then he'll propose.

Tl;dr The only couples I know who are engaged and around my age are religious.

Getting married in June 2014. I'm a 25 yr old so I guess 'young'?

Well I see no reason not to get married. Not sure I would say the any of my mates in a defacto relationship are happier than my married mates. In fact it is overwhelmingly the other way around.

There is also the issue that in both of our families, defacto relationships are not looked upon very well. (Protestant families)

Also she is well out of my league in general so I decided best to make it as difficult as possible for her to leave

In all seriousness, if you find the right woman there should be no reason for loss of freedom or poor sex life. These are things you should be working on together in a healthy relationship

I sell engagement rings!

/plug.

:p

Sorry that's bullshit. The amount of pregnant women I've had to give extra sick leave to would shock you. Furthermore, having assisted in running a small business that had 4 different bouts of mat leave over 12 months, I can tell you the cost is enormous.

Forget structure. If you have to pay someone who is of no immediate use to you then they are a liability.

You aren't giving them any more sick leave than they are entitled to though, right? The same leave that men also have access to.

As someone who has acted as a manager, surely you understand the benefit of enabling your core workforce to remain at work as much as possible. It is far better to have an employee at 0.5FTE than 0.0FTE, which IR reform can achieve.

You are focused on women being a liability, when they don't have to be.

You bet we do. I currently work for a not-for-profit. We have the unions up our arse constantly about affording women compassionate sick days due to 'unavoidable biological difference'. I fucking kid you not, a rep has said that to my face

I'm a bit of realist mate. Unfortunately, if there is an added cost/risk I will find a cheaper/more cost effective option. I really wish it were a different way but women make their choices. Why can't I be given Pat leave so that my SO can immediately return to work and I take primary care of the child. Men get laughed out the door for that... When society meets half way, I might be a little more forgiving

\
Men can't get pregnant. Equality in the work place out the window.

I would love too. Problem is women are head fucks. I blame the pill tbh. Completely irrational and random at the best of times and overly moody and depressed. Blessed the man who can handle it but long term relationships are my goal. I don't really see the point in short term flings and what not. You're pretty much giving yourself away.

Problem for guys like me is that women are much more keen to sleep around. Wish it was different but we are facing a different problem to what we have faced in previous decades.

Fuck feminism.

That's what we want! You may not realise it, but that right there is you expressing a feminist value :) It seems counter-intuitive to think affording men a right is actually forwarding women's rights, but it is; it is all about breaking apart the systemic boundaries that make women second-class. Inequitable leave is one such boundary. We are often too focused on the "perks" that are given to women than the reasons why they are deemed necessary. The more obvious ones (eg: quotas) are practically just clumsy means by which to level the playing field- kind of like austerity in Greece- and are actually against feminist principles (plus arguably harmful.)

I don't judge you for feeling that women are a burden on your business, I would just like you to be aware that it is not necessarily a biological factor that causes this. There are man-made (pun not intended) barriers that reinforce the gender divide. Feminism doesn't say "hey, to hell with men, give women all the power and benefits" (contrary to what a small but vocal group of misogynist organisations would have you believe). Feminism says "Hey, something isn't quite right with the way we do things, could it be better? How can we make it better?"

Anecdotally, I have worked for large (including one of the largest workforces in my state) and small businesses and none have had the issues you are describing with pregnant staff taking excessive leave. I'd be interested to know whether your business is an outlier, or whether it is symptomatic of your industry, or socio-economic area, or any other factor. I don't deny your experience, it just seems contrary to mine and I wonder if there is an underlying reason for that.

Afro we have been around this several times, if you persist in just being a brick wall you offer nothing to the dialogue and should remove yourself from the conversation.

Sweden has proven that an equitable parental leave system promotes equality in the workforce. It does not matter that the man does not get pregnant; by giving both the same scope to care for the infant, equality in the workforce is achieved. Women are able to keep working rather than being a "burden" on the system.

What evidence do you have that women are more keen to sleep around? The last studies I have seen had men with an average ranging from 9 (UK, 2011) to 24 (Durex- worldwide, 2008) sexual partners and women with 4 (UK) to 13 (Durex.) The decreasing stigma placed on sexuality has seen female promiscuity anecdotally on the rise, but all studies I have seen place men as the more promiscuous gender.

It is also problematic that you label all women as head fucks, negative stereotyping is harmful- whilst some people of both genders have mental health issues, and women certainly have hormonal cycles, your average woman is stable. I can guarantee that even the most stable person is going to get pissed off at being called a head fuck by someone who doesn't know them though.

Why fuck feminism? What do you perceive as bad about it?

This is why I need feminism.

You can't throw up a single nation as the evidence that it's feasible. That's called an outlier.

The fact is, women take more sick leave - not maternity leave, not family leave, not any other leave - sick leave. And because they're 100% more likely to get pregnant, this makes for more of a liability.

Someone has to be the first to enact positive change. Marriage equality has finally reached majority support amongst the voting public, giving a voice to change. But should we just continue mired in the old ways because only a few outliers allow equal marriage?

Sweden isn't the only country, they are just the best. The entire Scandinavian region is utterly fantastic for workplace equality. By the same token, Australia isn't the worst- but this isn't a zero sum game and it is still fine to recognise and try to change flaws in our system whilst fighting for those worse off abroad.

Please post statistics on sick leave rather than just claiming it as gospel truth. Ignoring your comment on who gets pregnant as it ties into my argument above regarding Sweden/Scandinavia.

I know I'm not going to change your mind, you are notorious for sticking to what you perceive as true, but hopefully this helps a less vocal visitor to the thread consider other ideas.


Edited by Scoll: 4/12/2013 06:19:59 PM

Yet your premise that women take more sick leave is based on a representative study of 1,000 men and 1,000 women from just England?

I also think you're misusing the term outlier, unless it's been proven unfeasible elsewhere its simply a pioneer of sorts.

I always wanted to get married young and have kids quickly, until about 18 months ago. Now the idea horrifies me.

I can't even find a girl for a serious relationship, let alone marriage :lol: I find I get cold feet very quickly these days, and I can't work out what changed, but one date/night out is usually enough for me to find a deal breaker.