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AzzaMarch
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dirkvanadidas wrote:don't worry remainers , there will be another refredendum at the end of the negotiations, the 2 options will be1. eea membership which will cost more in contributions, less influence , free movement of peoples , some eu laws have to be adopted but you have no say. or 2. stay in . No there won't be. The EU won't give the UK the right to determine the terms of the exit. There will be negotiations for sure, but the EU will ultimately decide.
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grazorblade
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Decentric wrote:Racial vilification is abhorrent. However, it is not the only issue that the Leave voters considered. It is one of many. I agree I'm a euroskeptic and was lukewarm about the vote slightly in favour of remain but don't care a lot either way Having said that tabloids in the lead up to brexit repeatedly stoked racism as did ukip and you could argue members of the conservative party did too (perhaps labour did too?) If you stir up racism to get a political result the campaigners are definitely partly responsible for the racism that follows the political victory situations like this really need leadership from the leave campaign to not act defensive and distance their movement from racism sadly that doesn't happen
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quickflick
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dirkvanadidas wrote:don't worry remainers , there will be another refredendum at the end of the negotiations, the 2 options will be1. eea membership which will cost more in contributions, less influence , free movement of peoples , some eu laws have to be adopted but you have no say. or 2. stay in . It's plausible that Britain may end up having a Swiss-like deal with the EU. I don't rule that out. But it would be a travesty if there was a second referendum at the end of negotiations. Unless something about the first one (or the prospect of exiting the EU in general) is unconstitutional, it would be absurd to have a second referendum. I think they should have voted to stay in. But if they have a second referendum, it will basically be like taking a massive crap on a legitimate democratic outcome (in an area where popular consent legitimately governs). In some areas, democracy cannot be used, constitutionally or ethically, to decide an outcome (e.g. if somebody should be executed). But, here, Parliament decided that Britain's membership within the EU was best decided, in keeping with British constitutional practice, by a referendum. You can't then have a sook and cancel it. At least, not in the short term.
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Aikhme
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Brilliant speech by Farage...
[youtube]woaS1b_seEM[/youtube]
He says it like it is.
Europeans are denial about the political union and single currency. All they have managed to do is bring poverty and misery to millions in the Mediterranean countries.
The EU have literally imposed poverty on some countries.
GREXIT and CYEXIT next.
EU can F@#k OFF!
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dirk vanadidas
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don't worry remainers , there will be another refredendum at the end of the negotiations, the 2 options will be1. eea membership which will cost more in contributions, less influence , free movement of peoples , some eu laws have to be adopted but you have no say. or 2. stay in .
Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club
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Decentric
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quickflick wrote:Once upon a time, being "Liberal" in Australia was not a misnomer. It was never perfect. But the likes of Malcolm Fraser made the party somewhat in keeping with J.S. Mills' liberalism- namely protecting and promoting the rights of the individual. The Fraser Government was probably the first in the world to act against the Apartheid Regime.
Unfortunately, the current Liberal Party has greatly departed from that kind of policy (hence Malcolm Fraser decided not to support the Libs any more). To a point they may care about the rights of the individual, but it's very neoliberal these days.
Edited by quickflick: 28/6/2016 11:25:49 PM Fraser was closer to a genuine Liberal, although he launched the 'dole bludger' campaign, attacking the victim not the system. His work repudiating apartheid was admirable.
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quickflick
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Once upon a time, being "Liberal" in Australia was not a misnomer. It was never perfect. But the likes of Malcolm Fraser made the party somewhat in keeping with J.S. Mills' liberalism- namely protecting and promoting the rights of the individual. The Fraser Government was probably the first in the world to act against the Apartheid Regime.
Unfortunately, the current Liberal Party has greatly departed from that kind of policy (hence Malcolm Fraser decided not to support the Libs any more). To a point they may care about the rights of the individual, but it's very neoliberal these days.
Edited by quickflick: 28/6/2016 11:25:49 PM
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Decentric
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canonical wrote:The Telegraph UKQuote:In the month before the referendum "What is the EU" was searched an average of 261 times a day in Britain, according to Google AdWords. That means if searches increased by 250 per cent, as Google announced on Friday, there were still fewer than 1,000 or so people typing the question into the search engine.
Although the Google Trends data may have included other variations of the term, such as "What is the European Union?", it is likely that it was still a tiny proportion of the country.
Other search terms that appeared to have a boost after the EU Referendum results included "Getting an Irish passport", "How to emigrate" and "Buy gold". Wow! I've been told that the Teegraph is right wing. Compared to the Australian it is a radical publication. To its credit, I felt like I derived a lot of info arguing both sides of the issue from it. The Australian loves the right wing faction of the Liberal Party. Liberal is a misnomer. They derive all their ideology from the American Institute Of Public Affairs - a right wing think tank, funded by all sorts of nefarious right wing interests. The Liberal Party should be called the Christian Conservatives, or something similar, because they are well to the right of the British Conservative Party and getting forever closer to the American Republicans. The Australian newspaper is becoming an increasing mouthpiece for the Liberals and the American IPA , although they perplexingly don't like Turnbull, who has continued with most of Abbott's nefarious programs. Edited by Decentric: 28/6/2016 10:52:42 PM
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Decentric
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Racial vilification is abhorrent. However, it is not the only issue that the Leave voters considered. It is one of many.
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Decentric
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Toughlove wrote:
“Wake up,” Labour MP David Lammy wrote. “We do not have to do this. We can stop this madness and bring this nightmare to an end through a vote in Parliament.”
Apparently, democracy is only a good thing when it goes your way — anything else is “madness”.
Daniel Hannan, a Member of European Parliament who has campaigned his entire career for the abolition of his own job, summed up Lammy’s position: “Little people! You have been misled! We, your betters, will now act in your true interests!”
Writing in The Sun on the weekend, Mr Hannan said “Project Sneer” was doomed to fail and that British voters, threatened with “Armageddon”, reacted with “calm, common sense and courage”.
“When they started, Leave was 20 points behind in the polls,” he wrote. “But they stuck to a simple message: that the British people should be able to control their own affairs.
“It’s amazing how often that message was deliberately distorted. Listening to the other side, you’d think that the Leave campaign was anti-foreigner or anti-immigrant.
“What Remainers didn’t, and still don’t, understand is that it was precisely this snotty attitude that pushed many waverers into backing Leave.”
While immigration was a central issue — and why wouldn’t it be when EU laws prevent the UK from deporting foreign criminals — a ComRes poll found sovereignty was a bigger issue for Leave voters (53 per cent) than immigration (34 per cent).
Meanwhile, the barrage of anti-Brexit lines as the media attempts to spin the “second referendum” narrative is becoming ridiculous. (The fact that 99 per cent of the media agrees Brexit is The Worst Thing Ever should be a pretty good indication Brits made the right choice.)
My political views are along way to the left, still being a sometime political activist. Yet I would still have voted to leave, even though I'm supposedly identified as having a background that is consistent with remainers. I see the result as a victory for the masses over the majority of; senior politicians; biased media ( particularly here in Australia, as I rate our media far, far worse than the English better quality media, and French media). I've hardly seen any stories after the event as positive in the media; capitalists (even though there are many capitalists who see financial gain in leaving); British regional citizens as opposed to London residents; elitists; who have I missed? Many of the aforementioned groups were telling many of the regional dwellers and the disempowered how good EU membership was, when their quality of life in the regions was perceived by them to be declining. The fact that some nefarious groups have used the race issue to launch vitriolic attacks at ethnic groups is abhorrent. Many of the remainers, are having difficulty accepting democracy, because they disagree with the result.
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And Everyone Blamed Clive
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quickflick wrote:Alan Partridge would have voted out :lol: :d :d :d :d And Alan B'stard for PM
Winner of Official 442 Comment of the day Award - 10th April 2017
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Decentric
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Toughlove wrote:Great article here about why. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/14ee0dd6-39e8-11e6-a780-b48ed7b6126f.html#axzz4CaJzjjSU Quote:Why do so many British voters feel resentment towards an EU that so many other British voters regard, if not with love, then as a benign embodiment of modernity?
It is all about social class, age, education and mobility. This has been Britain’s most class-based vote of recent decades, with the normal cross-class alliances dissolving into an early-21st-century “peasants’ revolt”.
According to all the pollsters, the lower down the social and educational ladder you descend the greater likelihood that someone will have voted Leave, while the best markers for Remainers is having a degree and being aged 18 to 29.
The so-called “left behind” voters — old, white, blue-collar — formed a core of Leave voters, along with a more middle-class Tory phalanx, but the anti-EU message has also resonated with a larger group of middling Britons.
This is about worldview and values as much as income. The sociologist Talcott Parsons used to distinguish between people with “achieved” and “ascribed” identities.
The former have, typically, done well at school, left home to go to university and then climbed a professional hierarchy — their sense of themselves is based on their achievements and they are thus comfortable with social and geographical mobility. The EU suits them.
The latter derive their identity much more from group and place — more than 60 per cent of British citizens still live within 20 miles of where they lived aged 14 — and are thus much more easily discombobulated by mass immigration and social change in general. The EU does not work so well for them. Read more by clicking the link. Thanks for the link and article, TL. :) I'm not one eyed about this issue. There are compelling arguments on both sides. Interesting to see a perception of voters' backgrounds.
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quickflick
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Alan Partridge would have voted out :lol:
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canonical
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The Telegraph UKQuote:In the month before the referendum "What is the EU" was searched an average of 261 times a day in Britain, according to Google AdWords. That means if searches increased by 250 per cent, as Google announced on Friday, there were still fewer than 1,000 or so people typing the question into the search engine.
Although the Google Trends data may have included other variations of the term, such as "What is the European Union?", it is likely that it was still a tiny proportion of the country.
Other search terms that appeared to have a boost after the EU Referendum results included "Getting an Irish passport", "How to emigrate" and "Buy gold".
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clivesundies
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433 wrote:Draupnir wrote:433 wrote:It's equally likely that people who voted to remain in the EU also asked "what is the EU?"
Do you really believe that :lol: ? Yes, they're the same people who voted remain just because their party allegiance told them to. Quote:In other news, curious as to what Farage will do now that he has seemingly helped gain independence for the UK?
Seems he's out of a job. He'll probably try to influence the process of actually getting the UK out - there's a long ways to go yet. Hardly relevant, but I feel a bit warm inside knowing that I'm from the same alumni as the guy who got the UK out of the EU. \:d/ \:d/ Edited by 433: 28/6/2016 03:52:37 PM What Farage has achieved is truly incredible and will be even more remarkable if the whole federal empire collapses.
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adrtho
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Draupnir wrote:adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:What's clear to me is that there isn't a congruent argument for the leave vote and people are attaching their own pet opinions to the entire 17 million. There is a good reason we don't have direct democracy for everything and this is a good example of it. Ponder this, if the question of the referendum was. Should the UK
1. Remain in the EU with no change
2. Remain in the EU but negotiate better terms (these would be outlined)
3. Leave the EU but continue to trade as a member of the EEA
4. Leave the EU and restrict immigration of EEA nationals
3 and 4 might get more than 50% of the vote but it probably wouldn't individually got the majority of the votes.
Regardless, the question remains now that Leave has been voted for, how do you actually appease 2 factions that voted for leave that have relatively dichotomous views on why to leave? but that also work for the stay in the EU there many with in the EU, who believe the EU should become one country , with one Doller, with one Army , ect.... Jean-Claude Juncker is the biggest European Federalists at some point, the UK would have to have a say, will be become a single super state country that the European Federalists like Juncker are working towards UK had a lot of influence in the EU, if that wasn't in their best interests it didn't need to happen. Regardless, that isn't the point at all of my post. no they did't...Visegrad Group had more influence .... Why does that matter? It's like saying because New South Wales has more influence, that Queensland has no influence. really?
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433
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Draupnir wrote:433 wrote:It's equally likely that people who voted to remain in the EU also asked "what is the EU?"
Do you really believe that :lol: ? Yes, they're the same people who voted remain just because their party allegiance told them to. Quote:In other news, curious as to what Farage will do now that he has seemingly helped gain independence for the UK?
Seems he's out of a job. He'll probably try to influence the process of actually getting the UK out - there's a long ways to go yet. Hardly relevant, but I feel a bit warm inside knowing that I'm from the same alumni as the guy who got the UK out of the EU. \:d/ \:d/ Edited by 433: 28/6/2016 03:52:37 PM
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Slobodan Drauposevic
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433 wrote:It's equally likely that people who voted to remain in the EU also asked "what is the EU?"
Do you really believe that :lol: ? In other news, curious as to what Farage will do now that he has seemingly helped gain independence for the UK? Seems he's out of a job.
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clivesundies
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433 wrote:It's equally likely that people who voted to remain in the EU also asked "what is the EU?"
And even more likely to be those who didnt vote.
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433
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It's equally likely that people who voted to remain in the EU also asked "what is the EU?"
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Carlito
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RedshirtWilly wrote:MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:Read somewhere that some people who voted leave are regretting it as they thought their vote didnt count. Basically voted as they got swept up on the emotion and when they realised what it meant they back peddled They did have a decent amount of time to make their mind up tbh. Wonder if 200,000 more people who voted leave feel this way than people who would regret it voting remain Yes they did and yet they voted they way they did and when they realised they were like .. also there was a spike of whats the eu after they voted. This is why people need to be aware on what they are voting for. Alas we are doing the same down here. Its all 3 word slogans and pork barreling
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clivesundies
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I believe the vote to leave was a simple one based clearly on the financial and social impact of mass immigration on the working communities in the UK.
Good luck to them.
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Slobodan Drauposevic
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adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:What's clear to me is that there isn't a congruent argument for the leave vote and people are attaching their own pet opinions to the entire 17 million. There is a good reason we don't have direct democracy for everything and this is a good example of it. Ponder this, if the question of the referendum was. Should the UK
1. Remain in the EU with no change
2. Remain in the EU but negotiate better terms (these would be outlined)
3. Leave the EU but continue to trade as a member of the EEA
4. Leave the EU and restrict immigration of EEA nationals
3 and 4 might get more than 50% of the vote but it probably wouldn't individually got the majority of the votes.
Regardless, the question remains now that Leave has been voted for, how do you actually appease 2 factions that voted for leave that have relatively dichotomous views on why to leave? but that also work for the stay in the EU there many with in the EU, who believe the EU should become one country , with one Doller, with one Army , ect.... Jean-Claude Juncker is the biggest European Federalists at some point, the UK would have to have a say, will be become a single super state country that the European Federalists like Juncker are working towards UK had a lot of influence in the EU, if that wasn't in their best interests it didn't need to happen. Regardless, that isn't the point at all of my post. no they did't...Visegrad Group had more influence .... Why does that matter? It's like saying because New South Wales has more influence, that Queensland has no influence.
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adrtho
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Brexit could make it easier for Australians to live and work in the UK http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-australians-to-live-and-work-in-the-uk/news-story/57498d1e37421b48679c7157ccc2f531AUSTRALIA’S high commissioner to the UK says Brexit could provide an opportunity to renegotiate visa arrangements and make it easier for Australians to live and work in Britain. In 2015 Johnson proposed an Australia-UK agreement to allow greater movement of skilled people between both countries. “He believes that Commonwealth citizens should be given more freedom to contribute to London’s economy, culture and communities, particularly given the strong cultural connections between our countries,” a spokeswoman for the then-mayor told news.com.au. “As a start, the mayor has proposed an agreement between Australia and the United Kingdom that allows greater movement of skilled people between both countries in order to address skills shortages. This could be extended further to other Commonwealth countries, if successful.” Edited by adrtho: 28/6/2016 01:39:50 PM
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RedshirtWilly
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:Read somewhere that some people who voted leave are regretting it as they thought their vote didnt count. Basically voted as they got swept up on the emotion and when they realised what it meant they back peddled They did have a decent amount of time to make their mind up tbh. Wonder if 200,000 more people who voted leave feel this way than people who would regret it voting remain
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Carlito
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Read somewhere that some people who voted leave are regretting it as they thought their vote didnt count. Basically voted as they got swept up on the emotion and when they realised what it meant they back peddled
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adrtho
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mcjules wrote:adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:What's clear to me is that there isn't a congruent argument for the leave vote and people are attaching their own pet opinions to the entire 17 million. There is a good reason we don't have direct democracy for everything and this is a good example of it. Ponder this, if the question of the referendum was. Should the UK
1. Remain in the EU with no change
2. Remain in the EU but negotiate better terms (these would be outlined)
3. Leave the EU but continue to trade as a member of the EEA
4. Leave the EU and restrict immigration of EEA nationals
3 and 4 might get more than 50% of the vote but it probably wouldn't individually got the majority of the votes.
Regardless, the question remains now that Leave has been voted for, how do you actually appease 2 factions that voted for leave that have relatively dichotomous views on why to leave? but that also work for the stay in the EU there many with in the EU, who believe the EU should become one country , with one Doller, with one Army , ect.... Jean-Claude Juncker is the biggest European Federalists at some point, the UK would have to have a say, will be become a single super state country that the European Federalists like Juncker are working towards UK had a lot of influence in the EU, if that wasn't in their best interests it didn't need to happen. Regardless, that isn't the point at all of my post. no they did't...Visegrad Group had more influence ....
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Glenn - A-league Mad
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AzzaMarch wrote:mcjules wrote:adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:What's clear to me is that there isn't a congruent argument for the leave vote and people are attaching their own pet opinions to the entire 17 million. There is a good reason we don't have direct democracy for everything and this is a good example of it. Ponder this, if the question of the referendum was. Should the UK
1. Remain in the EU with no change
2. Remain in the EU but negotiate better terms (these would be outlined)
3. Leave the EU but continue to trade as a member of the EEA
4. Leave the EU and restrict immigration of EEA nationals
3 and 4 might get more than 50% of the vote but it probably wouldn't individually got the majority of the votes.
Regardless, the question remains now that Leave has been voted for, how do you actually appease 2 factions that voted for leave that have relatively dichotomous views on why to leave? but that also work for the stay in the EU there many with in the EU, who believe the EU should become one country , with one Doller, with one Army , ect.... Jean-Claude Juncker is the biggest European Federalists at some point, the UK would have to have a say, will be become a single super state country that the European Federalists like Juncker are working towards UK had a lot of influence in the EU, if that wasn't in their best interests it didn't need to happen. Regardless, that isn't the point at all of my post. I think that is a good point. Certainly, there are federalists within the EU bureaucracy. And the EU motto is "ever closer union", but they are not necessarily a clear majority. And certainly, with all the recent issues around the Syrian crisis, the "superstate" concept is no longer realistically on the table. But really, I think once they expanded into eastern Europe, the number of states, and the diversity of wealth etc meant that the "federal Europe" idea was no longer realistic in the short term. As McJules states, the UK was probably the strongest voice against a "federal Europe". But now they are out they have removed their voice from the process altogether. Would they be satisfied if there was an EU superstate as a neighbour? Not that I think it will happen, but you get my drift. It will be interesting to see what happens with the EU over the medium term. There is nothing to stop a 2- or 3-speed integration process happening - perhaps the core "6 original" members integrate more fully, whilst the periphery stays as is? Perhaps now there is the first country exiting, that will trigger other countries to do the same? Who knows! We shall see... I think the first thing the EU should/could do from their view point. Is show all countries there is real immediate financial reason for being in the EU. I hear a lot of the Leave camp are saying the EU should not make an 'example' out of Britian and treat them harshly. I dont think they should be treated 'Harshly' but they should be treated in an appropriate way that demonstrates they were better off in the EU. This way they can show those that may be thinking about exit that the benifit is real and immediate.
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AzzaMarch
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mcjules wrote:adrtho wrote:mcjules wrote:What's clear to me is that there isn't a congruent argument for the leave vote and people are attaching their own pet opinions to the entire 17 million. There is a good reason we don't have direct democracy for everything and this is a good example of it. Ponder this, if the question of the referendum was. Should the UK
1. Remain in the EU with no change
2. Remain in the EU but negotiate better terms (these would be outlined)
3. Leave the EU but continue to trade as a member of the EEA
4. Leave the EU and restrict immigration of EEA nationals
3 and 4 might get more than 50% of the vote but it probably wouldn't individually got the majority of the votes.
Regardless, the question remains now that Leave has been voted for, how do you actually appease 2 factions that voted for leave that have relatively dichotomous views on why to leave? but that also work for the stay in the EU there many with in the EU, who believe the EU should become one country , with one Doller, with one Army , ect.... Jean-Claude Juncker is the biggest European Federalists at some point, the UK would have to have a say, will be become a single super state country that the European Federalists like Juncker are working towards UK had a lot of influence in the EU, if that wasn't in their best interests it didn't need to happen. Regardless, that isn't the point at all of my post. I think that is a good point. Certainly, there are federalists within the EU bureaucracy. And the EU motto is "ever closer union", but they are not necessarily a clear majority. And certainly, with all the recent issues around the Syrian crisis, the "superstate" concept is no longer realistically on the table. But really, I think once they expanded into eastern Europe, the number of states, and the diversity of wealth etc meant that the "federal Europe" idea was no longer realistic in the short term. As McJules states, the UK was probably the strongest voice against a "federal Europe". But now they are out they have removed their voice from the process altogether. Would they be satisfied if there was an EU superstate as a neighbour? Not that I think it will happen, but you get my drift. It will be interesting to see what happens with the EU over the medium term. There is nothing to stop a 2- or 3-speed integration process happening - perhaps the core "6 original" members integrate more fully, whilst the periphery stays as is? Perhaps now there is the first country exiting, that will trigger other countries to do the same? Who knows! We shall see...
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Slobodan Drauposevic
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The backpedalling that is going on at the moment :lol:
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