And who has rogic performed against, pub teams in scotland ? only one goal in 13 for the socceroos as well

Mooys record in the a-league is almost unseen from any other play in the leagues history

Mooy was not good enough for those 'pub teams in [Scotland]'.

Taggart did similar things in the A-League. Then it turned out he was actually not that good after all.

Mooy wouldn't be the first player to have inflated value on the back of outstanding performances against weak opposition.

Never mind if he's outstanding in the A-League. He still has specific weaknesses which he had in Europe which I don't think have been eradicated.

We already know that Rogic has the technical ability in short spaces to be able to evade trouble, create space, get clean past opponents and then either to carry on himself or to lay off a perfectly weighted pass.

Mooy is not as apt at this.

And frankly criticisng the SPL isn't good enough, you need to be more analytical. The same goes for the A-League.

Where are the leagues strong and where are they weak?

The SPL is weak in terms of building up play properly. But attacking players are still under lots of pressure insofar as the defence tend to harrass them quite a bit. This doesn't happen enough (or well enough) in the A-League.

And its those defences against which Rogic has excelled.

Mooy has excelled against defences which have a track record of being appalling at shutting down opposition players.

Mooy has been our best player in this campaign so far and can actually play the 90 minutes.

He will start over Rogic.

That was years ago mooy has improved immeasurably since then. Blind freddy can see that.

It's reasonably common phenomenon for australian players returning home from european youth set ups to then do well in the a-league, jamie Maclaren is another one that springs to mind

Why has Mooy been a more effective goalscorer and provider than rogic for the socceroos ?

I would hope Ange would not be so stupid. For openers, Langerak is okay at distribution. He's nowhere near as good as Ryan, but he's not terrible.

Let's assume that by the time Russia 2018 is upon us, Ryan is not a particularly good shot-stopper, does not make the big, athletic saves, does command the area that well and and is still not particularly special at catching the ball. Of course, he may prove us wrong. I've seen the odd nice save from him at Valencia. If he is a shot-stopper with great reflexes, agility, hand-eye co-ordination, etc., then scrap this. But if he is still not those things...

For us to have any chance of getting out of the group (let alone winning a knock-out stage match), we will need a goalkeeper who can produce the big saves. Playing the ball out nicely is a secondary skill, not a primary one, for a goalkeeper. We will need a goalkeeper who can make the unbelievable saves. So far, I don't think this is Ryan. I think this might be Langerak.

We mustn't kid ourselves. We're going to get peppered by shots from world class opposition. For this, we need the best possible goalkeeper in the traditional sense. Ange would do well to remember this.

So Langerak needs to be playing and pronto. If he can prove himself in this respect, he ought to leapfrog Ryan. If he still doesn't get game time (and Mat Ryan hasn't improved) then we have a problem with our coach.



How do you mean Gersbach isn't the right size to be a technical winger? He's 6' and weighs in at 72kg. I'd say that's practically ideal. Either way, you may be right about he and Smith being the type to beat their man. But you can learn to cut inside. I don't think this would be problematic unduly and we haven't got better options.



Spot on. I'm not too sure about Juric, though. It is really horses for courses with Leckie. But, honestly, if we're not playing in a match in which we only need to draw or in which the opposition left-back is slow/suspect/whatever, I don't think Leckie should be starting at right-wing for the reasons you have given. He's not technically good enough. He is not good at scoring goals, he does not create chances. The bloke should not start except in those circumstances when we're just playing defensive football in the front third.

Unless he starts at right-back, which I still think may be plausible (especially in lieu of any other decent right-back) but I understand why you think it isn't.

Either way, it should be Kruse/Burns/the Ikon starting at right-wing, and then when the game opens up and the opposition are tired, Leckie is an option.



Not bad. I'm just unsure about Juric.



Against quality opposition, it has to be Rogic. Mooy is fine against crappy Asian teams. But I still think Mooy is too slow and not technically good enough (not in Rogic's league, in any event). He is the type of player who thrives against average opposition. We haven't seen him against top-notch opposition. He needs to move to Europe ASAP and prove otherwise.



The CDMs need some degree of technical ability. Do you remember when Jedinak and Holland played as the CDM pairing in a WCQ a few years ago? I can't remember the opposition. It might have been Oman. We couldn't get the ball out of defence and it looked as if the opposition would constantly pinch it off us in defensive midfield. In fact, they did just that often enough.

Very dangerous to have two you can't play the ball around quickly.

You need one fast, highly technical CDM. Antonis or Luongo fit the bill nicely enough. In theory, you can play two such players and, if they're good enough defensively (even if they're a bit smaller), you might have you best possible side capable of defending well and most capable of attacking well.

But, in ordinary circumstances, I advocate one fast, highly technical CDM and one who is technically solid and defensively excellent to break up (e.g. Irvine, perhaps Lyden or Degenek).



Agreed.



All good. You raise some very good points. It makes for interesting reading and it's enjoyable to engage with it.

Mooy was not good enough for those 'pub teams in [Scotland]'.

Taggart did similar things in the A-League. Then it turned out he was actually not that good after all.

No, he is not.

Mooy is a handy player. What he does well is he makes himself look excellent against lacklustre opposition. When Mooy has acres of space against slow defenders, he plays world class passes and scores some nice goals.

Against quality opposition, the jury is still out. Mooy needs to the leave the A-League ASAP and go to Europe.

So far he has played at Bolton and St Mirrens and been less than ordinary. One of the common criticisms when he was there is that he was too slow.

I'm sorry but I'm sceptical about the idea that a dude in his mid-20s, who was previously average, has suddenly become a class act on the basis of some world-class performances against A-League teams and Bangladesh.

Why do I think this? Even in the A-League and even against Bangladesh, there were moments early on when Mooy looked far too slow and gave up the ball. This was against Bangladesh. Then he grew in confidence, eradicated the mistakes and was involved in some magnificent passages of play. But he still looked too slow.

The worry is that against world-class opposition, when Mooy is not afforded 5 minutes on the ball, but is constantly hassled by defenders who know how to shut him down, he will become a massive liability.

Rogic is another story.

Rogic is the most gifted Australian footballer (at least not still in his teens) since Harry Kewell.

Rogic's passing is magnificent and he has the vision and technique to get past opponents in all manner of ways. No other Australian player not still in his teens (including Mooy) can do that.

For the thousandth time, the the defensive ability of a CAM is not a primary skill. It's an added bonus. Rogic does not need to be able to do this. But as it happens, he has improved. Watch him at Celtic.

The idea of Rogic not starting at CAM because Mooy is (unless Mooy proves himself in Europe) is ludicrous.

quickflick, the A-League would have to be one of the slowest, if not the slowest league's in the World. We keep slowing down. This is a sickness that afflicated even the previous dutch days.

It's no joke (not funny I mean), that Ange is also teaching a style that is practically, like the Dutch style previously, becoming slower and slower.

Players like Mooy are a major problem for the future of the game. Luongo is a breath of fresh air, Ikon a breath of fresh air, Smith a really great big cyclone of fresh air. Jedinak is always up to the task and an enforcer no matter whose in front of him.

Now, if Mooy is in the NT starting XI, I will be sort of sad for only one reason, his pace and recovery after turnover or dispossession. This is the area that he would not deserve to be on the pitch for.

anyway FIFA 16 says Mooy is Australia best players :lol:

Nah it's still Ryan.

I remember saying to use Rogic as a false 9 about 18 months ago with leckie and kruse outside him... and I got hammered about it... now all of a sudden its a great idea haha

i was looking at this site , GK didn't come up, but Ryan come up under GK as 78 which is the same as mooy

http://www.futhead.com/16/nations/australia/

I don't have the game

Edited by adrtho: 8/3/2016 11:14:46 AM

I still cant get on board with your assessment of the two keepers. For mine Ryan has proved that he is a capable shot stopper. Langerak has not had enough opportunities to prove himself as anything as yet. The only consistent football he has really played was at victory and then a short run of games at dortmund where he made a couple of errors from memory. Your first choice keeper has to be playing week in week out IMO. Until Langerak does this he has to remain number two. While i do agree that playing out is a secondary skill set as long as you are at least capable in the main facets of keeping you suit anges style.

As far as the world cup goes japan, korea and the majority of africans countries havent exactly been blessed with quality goal keeping stocks and they've done pretty well.

What i mean about gersbach is he doesnt seem to possess the physical attributes you would associate with a technical and clever winger such as the low centre of gravity etc. While there are exceptions to the rule that is what you would normally look for.

Again i just cant get on board with converting him to a winger and as i said i think it is more likely if he does convert at all it would be to centre half. At the moment we have numerous options to play in those wide positions, players who naturally play there. No need to convert anyone.

Im not sure you've fully read my point about the number 6 role. I've advocated playing a technical player in the number 8 role for the 6 to play to and start the play from deep. In the first instance your 6 needs to be defensively sound, secondly is their ball playing ability. There will certainly be times where we are going to dominate possession and can afford to play without the specialist holding midfielder and look more towards playing as an example antonis and luongo together in those 6 and 8 roles.

Mooys touch is absolutely atrocious for a key playmaker, he is seriously bad at stopping a driven pass close to his feet. He gets away with it in the HAL and against shite asian teams because he has a good sense of positioning and spatial awareness but he would get murdered in Europe for doing the same.

take the blinkers off buddy.

mooy played in scotland 3 or 4 years ago. when left by the time he was 21. st mirren stuggled in the SPL - hard to shine when you are in a team getting thumped week in week out. put rogic in the same team and see how he goes.

taggart was picked up by the championship club fulham and was seriously injured and pretty much missed 2 seasons. he came back and played sporadically for dundee for less than 10 games. with no preseason or much training with them - he came straight over from fulham and they had him playing 2 weeks later after 2 years off.

rogic has serious talent, no-one is denying that. but rogic has some holes in his games. struggles in transition, goes missing for periods-albeit much less than guys like troisi - and his work rate in defending/capability to defend is poor. for the moment he is more of an impact player than someone you can rely on as part of a solid team.

I will be really happy to watch the friendlies v greece and england to see how we go now and put some of these guys to the test.

I will be also happy when mooy and rogic are both in europe and holding down a starting spot.

mooy seems more capable of leading a whole team - like milligan or bresciano - than rogic

Edited by inala brah: 8/3/2016 09:30:10 AM

Edited by inala brah: 8/3/2016 09:31:45 AM

21 isn't that young for a footballer. All technical development ought to be complete about 5 years before that point.

So, five years after he should be a technically developed player, Mooy is average.

Then he comes to the A-League and he's a superstar.

That's why one ought to be sceptical.

And as we've said, even now his game still has big holes. He's too slow and his first touch is not good.

You mention Rogic's flaws.

The difference is that Rogic's flaws are not fatal flaws for a CAM. Mooy's flaws are. You cannot have a slow CAM with poor first touch.

I'll also point out that Rogic has improved considerably in transition. He needs to be improve at jockeying opposition defences, but he's not as poor as you make out.

People forget that the last few games Langerak has played for the national team he gave away two penalties, one a red card after him channelling his inner karate kid.

Jamie Vardy was 25 years old and playing conferance football.

He is now going to be in Englands squad for the Euro's.

"21 isn't that young for a footballer. All technical development ought to be complete about 5 years before that point." My ass.

You need to remember that plenty of players have appeared ordinary until they have been given a real chance to prove themselves. Vardy and Mahrez are cases in point.

I never saw mooy play at st mirren or bolton and id really be doubtful if anyone watched those matches and even if they did paid a hell of a lot of attention to him.

I personally think you are taking too narrow of a view about the role of each player on the pitch is and the variable requirements against different opposition. What i mean by this is against a player like pirlo who is a deep lying play maker you would be far better off with mooy as opposed to rogic in our attacking midfield position as he can do a little of everything and has the energy to keep the pressure on someone like pirlo and restrict his effect on the game.

21 isn't that young for a footballer. All technical development ought to be complete about 5 years before that point.

So, five years after he should be a technically developed player, Mooy is average.

Then he comes to the A-League and he's a superstar.

That's why one ought to be sceptical.

And as we've said, even now his game still has big holes. He's too slow and his first touch is not good.

You mention Rogic's flaws.

The difference is that Rogic's flaws are not fatal flaws for a CAM. Mooy's flaws are. You cannot have a slow CAM with poor first touch.

I'll also point out that Rogic has improved considerably in transition. He needs to be improve at jockeying opposition defences, but he's not as poor as you make out.

For those suggesting mooy cant play at the top level because he takes too long on the ball you must consider that not all leagues are played flat out like the premiership, championship etc. Someone like mooy would prosper just fine in most games in italy and to a lesser degree spain. Choosing between the two is always going to be a case to whose style most suits the team set up to face each different opposition.

I cant see greece coming out and looking to play proactively as for many years thats not really been their style. You could make an argument for either of the players to start though id suggest if greece are going to play deep and not allow space in behind id be more inclined to play mooy who has a better strike from distance and can make the most of set pieces.