Not sure if any of you guys saw Ange on shootout on Sunday night but someone asked him about JMac and he talked about consistency.

He said that he doesn't want to just bring a striker into the national team and then drop him again, because the second you step onto the pitch in the national team the clock starts ticking for your first goal and that adds huge amounts of pressure on you.

He spoke specifically about Taggart, and basically how he left too early, and even though he had one good A league season his career is fucked at the moment because he never showed any consistency. He never showed that he could score against the best defences consistently, when opposition defenders were watching out for him.
It was pretty interesting to hear.

I hope JMac keeps cutting it up. He's a pretty interesting type of player - not a true CF and doesn't really play with his back to goal, but you'd think his movement would be very very welcomed by Ange. Just another option in his attack.

Ange is completely right - these players have to consistently perform at the highest level to expect to go anywhere. Even Dukes spent a few years dominating in the NSL before heading to Europe, our current crop of youngsters should do the same.

That said, form should also be rewarded - If he is still scoring goals, Maclaren MUST be included for the Greece friendlies.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/05/14/11/38/mile-jedinak-wins-top-prize-for-epl-goal

[youtube]252O8VVidew[/youtube]

[youtube]VyfDhVBxE6g[/youtube]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/freak-opening-socceroos-goal-no-fluke-says-captain-mile-jedinak-20150616-ghpons.html

fkn cracker..

[youtube]TeTKCjOuBtg[/youtube]

Hahha, fair play. He still needs to be in a far higher level competition for it to be meaningful. The A-League isn't high enough standard. Hopefully, he moves pronto.

Not if they want to be be seriously decent.

If you spend 4 years dominating in the A-League and go to Europe at, say, 22. It's usually too late for you to become a key player in a key team playing the knock-out stages of the European Champion's League football.

Rule of thumb for most sports. Play with and against the highest quality opposition at the youngest possible age.

If you stay in the A-League until your early 20s, you cannot possibly do this.

How many world class players have developed in the A-League? How many have developed in La Liga, the Premier League, the Bundesliga, the Serie A, the Eredivisie, Ligue 1, etc. There is no physiological or anatomical difference between Australian and non-Australian players. So there's no reason why they can't develop in those leagues with the same success. There is every reason why they cannot develop in Australia without the same success.

The guys who are playing against Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Robben, Zlatan, Mahrez, Coutinho in their teenage years will be the guys who are the best in the future.

There's nothing new about this. It holds true in 99% of cases across all sports.

The best should leave the Australia as soon as possible. Hopefully in their mid teens. The key thing is where they go. Because their are places in Europe which are inferior to being in Australia. But there are other places which are tenfold better.

Yep. 16 is the right age to go. That's the age when really decent players are training with first-teams. After a couple of years, they're hopefully playing for the first team.

I have done my research. Mooy went there at 16 and stayed until he was about twenty (or at least about to turn twenty). That's plenty of time to make a case. In that time, he did not play a single game for Bolton.

Okay, maybe it's a case of a player slipping through the system. But I fear the criticisms which hold true today and which echo from back then are part of the reason why he did not play a single game. He did indeed reject an offer for a contract extension, but he still didn't play a first-team game in that time. He went to St. Mirren's and was also ordinary.

Therefore, he failed in Europe. It's tough job being a footballer and there should be no illusions. But that's what it is. It was failure.

Mile Jedinak was turning 25 years old when he left the A-League and is now captaining a bloody EPL club.

Stop your bloody agenda with Mooy not able to make it in Europe bullshit.

He's the best Australian player in the A-League's history.

10 goals, 18 assists tell you the entire story. I love watching him play, Melbourne City are actually my second favourite team in the A-League due solely to him. Whenever he's on the ball i expect something to happen. He's a joy to watch.

Never have i felt that way by an Australian player in the A-League's history. Thomas Broich is the only other player in the competition that i felt the same way with.

Edited by socceroofan4life: 14/3/2016 07:33:38 PM

Great. Mile Jedinak is your example.

He's an okay player (overall) in the English Premier League. He's not a key player for a team that is doing the business in the knock-out stages of the Champions League.

Jedinak is average (sometimes lousy) on the ball, but very good at screening. Therefore he's an average Premier League player.

He's not Ozil, Schweinsteiger, Yaya, etc. Those are the players to whom I refer. And there are probably about a hundred of them who are outstanding and are leaps and bounds better than players like Jedinak.

If a player wants to become a player of that calibre, they must not stay in the A-League beyond their teenage years.

I'm glad you're happy about Mooy. Let's see if he can go to Europe and prove me wrong.

I would cut off my ballsack if we could produce a single player like that within 10 years.

Its true that Taggart left at the first opportunity available and could have played another season or two become one of the best strikers in the a-league rather than have one great season.

But he did make a poor club choice which didn't suit at him at all and also suffered a very bad injury which halted his development.

If he made a better club choice and had a bit of luck being injury free it might have been a different story, although i still rate JMac ahead of Taggart anyday.

Better movement for a number 9 and perhaps that bit more consistent too.

Why shouldn't we? Aim high. We're immensely disadvantaged because of the cultural dominance of things like AFL. And the fact they tend to get the best athletes (thereby football, cricket and Olympic sports suffer). If we get a lot of kids who grow up on AFL, growing up on football, we will almost certainly produce those kind of players.

All we can do is win over in that area, have a second tier of Australian footballers, youth academies at all clubs (from u9s) and still encourage the most gifted to go to the best places in Europe at a young age.

If we do that, we'll be able to produce players of that calibre.

I think Maclaren is somewhat better at direct running than Taggart. This is really a big difference because it means defences afford you more respect.

give it up buddy, you are so off the mark. for the most part it has not been about leaving in the teen years for aussies success stories..

mark viduka went to croatia at 20 and to england at 23

bresicano went to empoli at 19/20

frank farina ;) left australia at 24 and only made it to france when he was 28

mark schwarzer left for europe when he was 22

jason culina joined ajax - straight from the nsl - at 20

popa went to japan at 24 and then on to crystal palace at 28

brett emerton joins feyenoord at 21

mathew leckie left at 20

ryan at 20

kruse at 21

the list goes on and on. cahill and kewell left earlier - but they are the exception. mooy left early like they did and took a good opportunity with wsw.

most of our successful players have had a slower transition. unless you are a wonderkid fortunate enough to be scouted young, most good aussies have had to earn their stripes first.

taggart is about our biggest missed opportunity over the last 2 years. such a raw talent has just been wasted. i really hope he can get back to where he was. the golden boot so young and some shit house luck with injuries and clubs.

I digress, if Jason Geria, Al Gersbach and Apo Giannou work out well after a handful of matches, would it be fair to think the Socceroos have enough depth basically in all positions now or are they still skinny in certain positions? Ofcourse as another talent comes along he will get exposure.

That's no digression and a very good question. It would be really helpful if they are decent after a handful of matches. But we've had such problems up front and in both full-back positions, it's going to take a while before we can be happy we're not skinny in those positions.

Never mind defensive midfield where, we're far from skinny, but our key players are either in the M-E or not particularly conducive to Angeball and will be getting on by the time of the next World Cup.

Such a raw talent? Jesus. All you do is look at statistics and results. Your analysis lacks nuance. It's not just how many goals are scored. How are they scored? Stats need to be looked at through the prism of context or else they're actually counter-productive.

Right, well with Taggart, in an utterly one-dimensional manner. He has a solid shot on him and sometimes his positioning is solid. But that's it.

All his goals were scored on the basis of A-League defenders affording him huge amounts of space on the ball and him, in such space, managing to get a show away.

Is Taggart fast? No.

Is Taggart quick, controlled and savvy on the ball? No. (At least he has never demonstrated it)

Is Taggart good at 1 vs 1? No. (He has hasn't, in a match situation, demonstrated the ability to beat opponents by one way, let alone multiple).

As such, that's not a lot of raw talent.

That's a mediocre player who had his value massively inflated by playing against crap defenders in the A-League and got found out in Europe.

Golden Boot in the A-League, in this context, is about as good as winning the USSR's award for most noble comrade.

Ok kool, would it be fair to say if there are 4 players to a certain position, that is sufficient depth. Lets see Left Backs in any order; B Smith, J Davidson, A Gersbach, ?? Right Backs; J Risdon, R Mac Gowan, C Herd, I Franjic/ J Geria Centre Forward; T Cahill, T Juric, A Giannou, K Bulut/J McLaren Looks like Ange should expose one more quality Left Back, during the course of time.

yeah taggart was so crap that fulham signed him in their first year out of the EPL....

There's no set path...some are late bloomers, some not.

Some get an offer from overseas, and a manager who believes...some get looked over.

Some enjoy the overseas life, and thrive...others get homesick, left on the pine, and hate it.

The best method of judging players is by looking at them play in whatever league they're in, regardless of the context, a player's technical abilities are obvious.

Mooy is more than capable of playing at the trinity, and i would go so far as saying Bundesliga 1.

well put

Simply asserting that I'm so off the mark doesn't make it so.

You got one thing right, though.

'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'. 'Aussie success stories'.

Are Australians physiologically and anatomically any different from other human beings?

Yes or no?

If not, why is there any reason why our sample space should only include Australians?

Yours is an example of parochial thinking, imo.

Why can't we compare Australian players with non-Australian players?

Why not? Why not? Why not? Why not?

So let's expand the sample space to include all footballers.

How many world class footballers developed throughout all their teenage years in Australia?


How many world class footballers developed throughout their teenage years in Holland, Germany, England, France, Italy and Spain?

So. No. I will not give it up.

I've been proved right on every single occasion with this argument.

Of the players you listed who left Australia after there teenage years, (excluding goalkeepers who are a different kettle of fish) only Viduka, Culina and Bresciano were all that decent. I'll add Grella to that list.

And they weren't that good. They were brilliant as Australian players go.

But how does Viduka compare against Raul, Henry, Bergkamp, Ronaldo and any number of others?

Because that's essentially the standard. Viduka, a player with world class skills, was not overall the player those guys were.

Same with Culina, Bresciano and Grella.

Outstanding players with world class skills but not quite in the top bracket.

And you, correctly, pointed out that Kewell and Cahill left in their mid-teens. That supports my argument. The only two Australian players who've made fairly big strides left at that point (not that I think Cahill is, overall, world class).

So, my point stands...

if a player wants to become world class, then staying in the A-League until they're 21 or 22 is just about the worst thing they can do.

Are you trying to debate with me or with yourself?

You mean the first year in which they had been relegated?

Great. So he played for a team which had been relegated and notched up how many appearances?

But like I said look at stats through the prism of context. The problem is that the context is he's crap.

You could say there are 4 players to a certain position. But some of them are good, some of them are medicore.

Do you really want to find yourself in a situation where you might have to play Davidson and Franjic as the fullbacks?

That wouldn't suggest depth, imo. Depth is when you've got a least a couple of very good options and a third or fourth solid option.

Much as I am a fan of Smith and Gersbach, they're both light on first-team experience. Right back is still a big problem. Up front, it's still uncharted territory. There's potential with Giannou and Maclaren. But we haven't seen much of Giannou and Maclaren is still playing in the A-League.

Can Ange realistically say that he can bring one of those attacking players on, against a good opposition (Japan or better) and be confident we'll score?

quickflick

most of the brazil players don't go to Europe on till they are 22 years old....there not to many Brazil players in Europe at 18 who end up playing in Brazil national team

2. European club competition, tends to have European players who tend to have played there football for a European club ....it's funny how this works

This is a very good post. The only thing I'll say is I do think you need to look at the context somewhat. What I'll say is if a striker is scoring easily in the A-League you need to ask if his goals are always just easy finishes or are they involving intricate one-two passes and nice 1 vs 1 with lots of pace and close control? If you can see the latter then it's plausible the player can replicate that type of performance at a higher level.

And you're absolutely right. There are any number of ways to do something. Right now we'd kill for players like Culina, Chipperfield, etc.

I'm simply keeping a sense of perspective by pointing out that those players still weren't right at the tip-top level internationally.

And for a player to get to the very highest level, it's almost impossible if he doesn't leave early for the simple reason that it's usually necessary to be playing against the highest quality opposition as young as possible to develop in that way.

Otherwise, there's a fairly clear ceiling as to how good a player can become.

In saying that, maybe 1% of players can still become utterly world class despite not following that kind of European- or South American-academy trajectory. I'm hoping Tom Rogic is such a player.

But players who wish to reach that level should be encouraged to leave as young as possible.

Those Brazilian players came through the Brazilian club system, not our one.

I agree. EU discrimination. It's abysmal.

I agree with your remarks and will add that it's better ( as a teenage footballer ) to go to Europe where they have a tried and tested/proven formula for development compared to oz where we are constantly changing structures and setups. But the young footballer must remember that by leaving oz early you will be ignored by the youth team setups which may hinder progress in Europe where national team player status is highly important...... It may be the reason ange has picked players like ikon, Antonis, giannou, to hep there careers?

oh...what are the shit country ?