Mecca stampede: Hundreds killed during Haj pilgrimage
Date: September 24, 2015 - 10:58PM

Mina, Saudi Arabia: At least 717 pilgrims were killed on Thursday in a crush at Mina, outside the Muslim holy city of Mecca, where some 2 million people are performing the annual Haj pilgrimage, Saudi authorities said.

At least 805 others were injured in the stampede, which took place on Street 204 of the camp city at Mina, a few kilometres east of Mecca, where pilgrims stay for several days during the climax of the Haj.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/hundreds-pilgrims-reported-killed-in-stampede-near-mecca-during-haj-pilgrimage-20150924-gjufgd.html




Edited by munrubenmuz: 25/9/2015 12:20:23 AM

Edited by paladisious: 25/9/2015 09:20:49 PM

I don't think this is an appropriate way to highlight the importance of atheism.

Absolutely tragic. Terrible for everyone concerned.

Makes you think though.

There's legitimately 100 examples that make you think. No religious person tends to have any critical think regarding religion

Horrific. But, in this case, it's as much organised religion's fault as the Hillsborough tragedy was football's fault.

All part of god's plan.

This happens regularly. Maybe the crane incident a few weeks ago was a sign of things to come?

I haven't looked into it yet but did the crane collapse due to a weather event??

-PB

The genius of religion is that you can always spin these events to your benefit, eg:

These people were so loved by god that they were rewarded entry into paradise early.

When you don't have to concern yourself with logic, rationality, or evidence, its much easier to come up with bullsh1t reasons for things happening!

Every year, millions of Muslims converge on Saudi Arabia's holy cities of Mecca and Medina for the hajj pilgrimage, representing a major security and logistical challenge for the kingdom. On occasion, the hajj and events surrounding it have been marred by tragedy. A look at some of the deadly incidents:

———

2015: At least 717 people are killed and more than 800 injured in a crush of pilgrims Thursday in Mina, on the outskirts of Mecca. On Sept. 11, a crane collapses in a storm and crashes onto the Grand Mosque in Mecca, killing 111 people are killed and injuring nearly 400.

———

2006: More than 360 pilgrims are killed in a stampede in Mina, near Mecca, where pilgrims carry out a symbolic stoning of the devil. A day before the hajj begins, the collapse of an eight-story building used as a hostel near the Grand Mosque kills 73.

———

2004: A crush of pilgrims at Mina kills 244 people and injures hundreds on the hajj's final day.

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2001: A stampede at Mina on the final day of the hajj kills 35 people.

———

1998: About 180 people are trampled to death in panic after several of them fall from an overpass during the stoning ritual at Mina.

———

1997: At least 340 pilgrims are killed in a wind-whipped fire at a tent city in Mina. More than 1,500 are injured.

———

1994: About 270 people are killed in a stampede during the Mina ritual.

———

1990: A stampede kills 1,426 people at an overcrowded pedestrian tunnel leading to the holy sites in Mecca in the worst hajj-related tragedy.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/glance-major-hajj-related-incidents-saudi-arabia-33999043

Spot on.
From a critical thinking mindset, religious belief requires committing the logical fallacies of circular reasoning and begging the question
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

That's why I don't like religion - it not only avoids logic and rationality, it actually REQUIRES there to be no provable evidence.

Religion is defined by faith, and what is faith? Faith is believing in the truth of something WITHOUT EVIDENCE.

On that basis alone I reject it, and everything it represents.

I do believe that religious people look to 'evidence' but what they think is 'evidence' is not 'evidence' as defined by scientific investigation.
The reason the religious person will say something like 'god is outside space & time & the ability to be defined by man' is because they see things in nature that they perceive as 'complex' and think 'god must have done that'. But thanks to centuries of scientific investigation, we know that what was once ascribed as being 'attributable to a deity', is now simply a result of natural forces/physics. It has meant that the foundation upon which the 'god theory' is built is ever so diminishing, such that nowadays I tend to see as the only area where a god can be ascribed to causing something is to the Big Bang or to abiogenesis (spontaneous life) on Earth. But thanks to scientific investigation, these things will be explained in the future, in the same way many past misunderstood natural processes ended up being explained naturally & no longer 'supernaturally'.
So obviously 'brainwashing' throughout childhood with non-evidenced based instruction goes some way to explaining why adults have religious beliefs, but I think deep down when adults do become aware of the shaky foundations on which their religious beliefs are based, they continue their belief system because they are denial of the finality of life. So religious belief acts as a coping mechanism for this awareness of the human condition.
So, from an evolutionary perspective, religious belief may well be a protective mechanism against mental illness (anxiety, depression, phobia, bipolar, etc) which might ultimately lead to suicide and hence an evolutionary survival mechanism.

Edited by Murdoch Rags Ltd: 25/9/2015 10:36:48 AM

I would argue that those specious arguments like "god is outside space & time & the ability to be defined by man" is just something those religious types use because they (thankfully) live in a secular, relatively scientific-literate society that demands at least a pretense of an evidence-based approach.

Amongst themselves they don't even bother with that line because it is irrelevant to them. Religious truth is often defined as "truth by revelation" - eg, I had this experience which led me to god, therefore I know it is true.

If there was any actual real evidence for the existence of god, then faith would become irrelevant. The power of religion by its nature requires believers to have faith. That s how churches have power - they are the intermediaries between god and the people.

I disagree. If it was a protective mechanism against anything it would be the fear of death and the unknown, perhaps also sociologically as a fear of the outsider. Our brains are our main evolutionary adaptations and with such a brain comes self-awareness and higher cognitive function. Religious or spiritual belief has over time clearly evolved from early animism (see Gobekli Tepe for example) to concepts of deities (mono and polytheism) to Eastern metaphysics/ethics (Buddhism, Daoism), which in my view shows the cultural relativisation that plays a big part in the formulation of philosophies and religions.

The sense of meaning religion gives may not (in its current form) explain its existence and prevalence, you could gain the same if not better sense of meaning through actions that are not religiously based or motivated (ie friendship, family, philosophy, physical actions, money). Most people I know who are religious are that way because: a) their family indoctrinated them young, b) near death experience, c) they realised they're gonna die and panicked (or as Carlin said, "cramming for the final exam" )


Even though it's a clear god of the gaps argument that is painfully convenient for a theist to take

Edited by marconi101: 25/9/2015 11:51:30 AM

Happens all the time there, people don't learn.

Deus vult.

Apparently they say that if you come to your demise at the hajj its a noble death?->

[youtube]ejkpLaWTFPE[/youtube]

:-k

Imagine if 800 people died in a crowd crush in Australia?

Are these people humans or cattle? Jesus christ, you would think they'd learn their lesson

Are there 800 people that listen to Limp Bizkit in Australia?

Surely it's not too soon?

I wonder.

I read somewhere the Saudis have spent something like $300 billion and are still struggling.

There's literally millions of them there at once all trying to do exactly the same thing in a prescribed order. It'd be a logistical nightmare.

It's probably more surprising that it doesn't happen more often.

Why do these disasters continue to occur?

The enormous and ever-growing numbers of people travelling to Mecca each year presents a logistical nightmare for authorities. The Haj must be performed at a fixed time, and the rites must be carried out in the same sequence, and often in extremely hot weather, making diffusing the crowds and ensuring safety difficult.

In the wake of many previous disasters, the Saudi government has announced and carried out new works to try to improve safety, upgrade infrastructure and amend regulations, with spending exceeding $300 billion since 1992, according to one research paper.

Past measures include redesigning the Jamarat Bridge, deploying tens of thousands of stewards and troops to monitor crowds, expanding walkways and ramps to allow more people to move towards significant sites and replacing tents with permanent fibreglass installations.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mecca-stampede-the-haj-tragedy-explained-20150924-gjuidt.html

Not too soon.

Tragic, but only one person died

Imagine if 800 people died though?

96 died at Hillsborough in similar scenario and they completely re-designed the way all large crowd events were policed in the country, brought in new laws regarding venues, and (eventually) gave the police a huge kick up the arse. 800 is insane.

The Saudi Royal family's priorities lie elsewhere.

How many million will show up for Oktoberfest in Munich in the next couple of weeks?

They can manage it in Germany while pissed, ffs.

You can bet the majority of that however many billion was for that big arse clock tower and luxury hotel in Mecca.

F*** me, I just laughed way too loudly at that :lol:

Where? I want to know where their heads are at. It's not with the people of Islam. It's definitely not with the west. They are a dodgy as fuck nation. What do they want.

Can we get a name change on the thread? Touch insensitive...