i thought the AIS developed the Golden Generation

Football Culture developed the Golden Generation; before we had Mark Viduka leading the Australian team playing at Leeds United competing in the Champions League soon we will have Apostolos Giannou formerly from Asteras Tripolis now in the Chinese League leading our attack.
The football culture has weakened.

What needs to be understood is that there is a block on investment in football in Australia.
Below the ALeague there is no market mechanism for investment in the game.
Why invest when there is no benefit?
Even in the ALeague there is limited investment growth in investment why invest when there is no consequence?
Promotion and Relegation is a market mechanism that is based on and encourages market forces to drive innovation, investment, growth, rewards success and punishes failure.
Closed markets discourage innovation.

This is about global standards in football development.
Without Prom/Rel debate is also about competing at a global level.

What lane, idiot? What's funny about bowling?

That could definitely work

$1m for 8 div clubs
$3m for 12 div 1 clubs + $2m 1st, $1m 2nd, $500k 3rd

What do people mean when they write "Europe"? People talk about Holland. Are others talking about Germany or Moldova?

If I compare Australia with Sweden

Both not very populated with large land masses. Australia has 4 large cities, Sweden 3 (compared with total population).
Football is not the main sport and does not get the most tv money (ice hockey receives more).

Its pretty much cheaper to travel in Australia domestically then Sweden.

Sweden gets approx $40 million per year (which just increased this season from $30 mil).
They put that money into 2 leagues.
75% Allsvenskan $30 milliom 16 teams
25% Superetten $10 million 16 teams

The pay distribution in the second division is the same over every club.
In the first division the teams get a base amount then more money the higher they finish on the table.

A similar model would work in Australia with some minor modifications.

Why? Why must we have a professional second division when:
. No other sport in Australia does
. The interest isn't there

Every time somebody jumps to the professional second division they conclude it isn't possible. Of course it isn't possible when it has to be professional


Consider this:
The youth league is a national league at a cost of $700k per club. Add $500k as a stand alone club
Each team should be able to attract $500k of sponsorship
- Canberra, Brisbane II, NQF, Gold Coast, Tasmania, Geelong, Melbourne III (SM), Wollongong, Sydney II (SU), Adelaide City

Every one of those should be able to attract $500k of sponsorship. Also they should be asked to raise $1m capital (one off) so they aren't getting a free ride

The FFA take $700k off each A League club as a result of dumping the youth league (each team has their own youth structure) but this is not a bad thing because they will be getting a marquee fund next season, and more money in the next TV deal. This $700k pa funds the second division clubs

The cost: $0.00

When we area ready for P/R all we have to do is remove the salary cap and promote 2 clubs
The new TV deal gives each A League team $3.5m and each Div2 team $1m ($50m a year)

Edited by bluebird: 14/3/2016 05:33:07 PM

Sorry, until the financial base is there I dont see it happening.

Lets say we had a 2nd Tier and we had 12 clubs from around Australia (and maybe NZ.. but I think it should be Aus only). Each of those clubs would be professional only (gone would be the days when Bob could go be a accountant etc), and possibly looking at a turnover of 2 million a season.. maybe more.

Now some of the clubs out there might already be spending 500,000 a season, some are spending 150,000 if that. There are probably teams spending less. Is there an extra 14 million dollars out there to fund this? Maybe. WE certainly do need a feasability study.

Then you would have to make sure that these 12 teams are spread over Australia. There is utterly no point having 5 from Vic, 5 from NSW, 1 from Qld and 1 from Canberra for example.

As soon as you cut out a market (in the case above SA and WA), then you lose public focus in those markets. You will have people probably dropping memberships in mass of the teams from there, and with that the players will move on and so forth. the Perth club in particular would like lose its owner and then you have a team at risk of not being financially viable.

(Speaking of which, if you were Wealth and owned a club currently, why the hell would you risk your team losing the spotlight and going down a division).

Money: THE EPL is big because it has a BIG TV rights deal. It does not have to really compete with many other 'big' sports there. Cricket is slowly degrading in the UK, and Rugby is nowhere near as huge as Football.

Australia has the NRL and AFL taking the majority of the tv money rights and sponsorship in this country. THe Socceroos until recently did have a badge sponsor. Thats.. not good. Tv numbers are down and some crowds are getting smaller. Are you telling me a tv station/rights holder is going to look at that and a possible 2nd division and think : 'Yeah that seems like a great way to bring in viewers and give money to the FFA/A League'.

If you do, then lay off the magic mushrooms.

There is just not enough 'available' money out there for a professional 2nd division in Australia. There is BARELY enough money for a Professional 1st division.

yup agree. the first steps will be expansion and a 2nd tier. this will happen without too many tissues get spent. once they are up and running p/r will be close.

there's been some really good articles about the need for a 2nd tier recently - irrespective of p/r. making the transition smoother for player development seems pretty reasonable/necessary.

reality is that the teams and interest already exist. the only thing stopping it is the ffa.

that comeback is so lane, that it funny :lol:

:lol:
On the topic would it be easier to run a semi pro 2nd tier with games on sunday afternoons and the odd game on saturday evening. 12 teams of the best of NPL.

He goes through more tissues re-reading his own posts

Get your tissue box ready.

:roll: call it what you want....

in 2025, there will be no P/R to the A-league.....but there might be flying cars

Thats how we got the cup. Many claimed it would never happen, that it was too expensive, starya was too big blah blah fucking blah.

Now its here and the success of it make haters cry.

Edited by TheSelectFew: 14/3/2016 03:02:49 PM

they dont "say" it at the top - there are reasons...

:lol:

but you're forgetting one little thing....I don't run the game, FFA runs the game, and they have said there no place for P/R

so, if you guys want to keep talking about P/R for the next 10 years, just like the Muppet from 2008, go ahead

Well said.

Dont bother with tardtho. He is an idiot.

=d> =d>

tellin it like it is...

im starting to think tardtho is donald trump. he knows the best words.

Edited by inala brah: 14/3/2016 01:45:53 PM

I start of by prefacing that Promotion and Relegation in Australia is a long way off, mainly due to the sustainability of the league and the clubs currently in the top flight.

However i am an advocate for P/R and would love to see it happen,but i don't see it happening for another 10 to 15 years or 3 TV deals later.

With that been said what the FFA need to understand is at minimum a second division has to be implemented.(Even if it is done in stages of inviting tenders from clubs within the next year,preferably to be up and running within the next 2-4 years )

1) you have the ability to establish clubs in regions that down the track an a league expansion will come from.( Townsville,second Adelaide,second Brisbane, etc.)

2) More investment will go into football, clubs in the NPL system will strive to get into a second tier and that is where you will see a large growth will come from.(Better coaches,Better facilities,Overall better run clubs in an effort to be granted a birth in the second tier)

3) Production of players will improve, at the moment due to limited spots and competition been high,Players are been losts due to the system. unfortunately some players are not at the a league level at the moment but the potential is certainly there, in which a second division will be perfect for.( if a second tier was to be established i would love a rule where 50% of players must be under the age of 25,out of 25 contracted players.)

4) Through such a system it would be a lot easier for promotion and relegation to be implemented in 10-15 years(which will be plenty of years for aleague clubs to get a strong foothold).

5) Such a league may be of interest to those currently football mad but choose to not have any connection to the a league.

The Benefits of such a league will be vast and improvement will be seen quite quickly i think.Furthermore to run such a league will not be that expensive, i have seen previous posts quoting roughly 10-15mil per year for a ten team league which is quite reasonble i think,especially if we could get an additional TV Right portion exclusively from fox to televise 2 games a week and also SBS to host one game a week which SBS will be keen for to continue their involvement in football in conjunction with the world game.(preferablly i would like to see a one deal made with fox in conjuction with either 7,9,10, and a separate deal for tier 2 with fox and sbs ).

Lastly the Biggest thing that i want to be changed is the way the TV money is disturbed,all football clubs are not the same, some are big clubs such MV,WSW,SFC,perhaps BR(titles) and others just survive year in year out.The TV rights should be disriputed in a manner representing the status of clubs( fans,sponsorship etc).It is then the clubs responsibility to run within the status of club, you may then see more clubs in the a league been a lot more financially sustainable.

This sort of method should be initiated in the second tier,2clubs at 2.5mil,5clubs at 1.5 and 3 at 0.833mil and eventually should also be implemented to the top tier.

I'm hoping the re-branding of the league could mean something like this is implemented.I guess it is a matter of waiting and seeing how it is all handled.

:lol:

with my limited intellect, i can see their will be no P/R in next 10 years ...but please show us how smart you are, by talking about P/R for the next 10 years

$17m a year - 10 teams, 27 rounds and finals
$40m a year - 10 teams, 27 rounds and finals
$80m a year - 10 teams, 27 rounds and finals

Australia's size, population, proximity to Europe or interest in the game compared to other codes has no impact on whether or not we can successfully deliver a P/R model


If you have a league that can demand $80m a year, which even ardtho (with his limited intellect) has identified puts us in a good position compared to other countries, then how the hell can you not introduce a low cost second tier?


None of the factors that are supposed to be hurting our code have stopped us from negotiating a TV deal. Whether or not we have P/R simply comes down to how we allocate the funds

And before anybody says we need to keep pouring money into our current structure until every team is making a profit - the other leagues have over 10 times the amount of money than us and their teams aren't making a profit either. Some of you really need to put away your "hamburger stand 101 books" and get into the real world

Me too, and I'm hopeful we'll get to a point where a sustainable P/R system can develop in my lifetime.

However, at the moment, those of us who actually 'follow' a non A-League team tribally, (to the point where our interest actually generates sufficient interest and advertising tv dollars to bridge the professional/amateur gulf), are an incredibly small niche in a very big country.

I'd like to say that the fact we are the fourth (third?) ball code isn't a factor in this discussion, but it simply isn't true at the moment.

I want the game to reach its full potential. Football reaches many people and bridges divides. Ive been going to many local grounds and met many in the community who want to be back up in the top. I think they should be given the oppurtunity.

and whats wrong with that???...sport trying to make football the way Europe does it

South American have spit season...they have 2 champions each year , is this football Culture?
Japan gone from European way to South American way, but add extra final play-off for Champion , is this football Culture
Scotland and Belgium add a champion rounds, where the top part of table teams play each other and bottom half of table play each other , is this Football Culture?

It look, anything that different in Europe or South American is Football Culture, but if it from Australia it's not

Yup the fact that Euopean players earn more that what it cost to run a club here and that we are 4th of all the football codes downtown don't count either. No to mention there is not football culture here, one half is ALF a the other Rugby

Funny how people like yourselves demand us to be like Europe conviently forget these

And it's them I blame for shackling the game as much as the FFA thanks to their ignorance - considering we have 26mil population I'd say stuff them - not worth the energy and concentrate on getting New fans to football.

Fxxxxin Eurosnobs - had enough of the ignorant fools 😡😡😡😡😡😡

Edited by UnitedGal: 14/3/2016 10:40:17 AM

The preoccupation with replicating 'genuine football culture' is one that comes from fans.

Fans who, funnily enough, don't have to bear the cost.

If you feel some sort of 'cringe' that we're not 'genuine' enough, that's something you'll just have to deal with. Pragmatically, you'll just have to accept that we're not Europe in terms of fan support, team facilities, and most importantly of all, money.

The adoption of NRL and AFL models for Football is a key problem.

We have attempted to copy these models so that the Australian sporting market can more easily recognize the competition type. This so our sport can compete for market share in the sporting landscapes.

We have forsaken Football Culture for Australian Sporting Culture.
Even to the extent that we have adopted a cricket/netball structural model to development structures in the NPL and Zones. The seperation of Elite football from Community football in a user pays system is not a football culture.

And in that sense, the A-League is a feeder competition for many others. Doesn't mean anything about the history. Granted, Rugby League's history within Australia is much more ingrained than it is over in England. But then the same can be said for Football over there. If that's what you're trying to say, than I whole heartedly agree.

Reminds me of a hypothetical someone wrote on The Roar a few years back of if Football was brought here in the 1700's..