Would you have watched your team if Relegation was at stake ?

May be more likely to watch the div 2 top team play.

This is complete nonsense, sorry.
We have always had higher participation for one thing but think...do you really think a 5-6 year old kid starts following an AFL team coz he or his dad play AFL on weekends?

I know 20 guys that play soccer. I know 3 that might watch A-League sometimes
I know one person who plays footy (one of the 3 above) but every single person I know besides maybe 5 watches AFL or at least claims to be either a crows or port supporter. Most of them couldn't kick a footy at goal 15 metres straight in front of goals without falling over but they watch every week and go mental for it.

That passing on the tradition of supporting a team does not disappear because less kids play the sport in an organised team (I grew up watching SANFL and then the Crows and never played an organised game of footy in my life). It's generational. It's what we don;t have in the A-League and if we don;t get our shit together we never will coz every 2nd generation or so our sports shoots itself in the foot. Even then....

For the record I havent watched AFL for many years coz it's not footy anymore and while there are a few people like me there aint enough to create a major landscape change in under 150 years and honestly if you care that much about ANY sports success in 150 years you need a hobby ;)

What you say is not well understood nor accepted today.... but it is very true ... no matter who or what system is put in charge ... the Australian sporting landscape will be the same and they will face the same issues as the late Johnny Warren identified way back in 1965 at a Gala day in Newcastle ..

Thoughts Midfielder? http://www.thepeckingorder.com.au/blog/tpovision/

I agree with this notion but the problem is we don't have a generation to wait. We are only 12 years into our generation for the A League (not even the half way mark) and we have already hit a wall

Professional sport is different. The AFL / NRL had the luxury of 100 years to grow as a suburban game. Costs were cheap. Players were part time. Travel was not an issue. Media coverage was limited (as were options) so there was a sense of monopoly in the fast growing metro regions

If this was year zero and they attempted the same thing today it would fail. The BBL had to hit the ground running. No history, but did capitalise on a broader interest in the sport. It tried state vs state, but quickly adapted the formula to city vs city (which for whatever reason worked better)

We don't have the time or the money to grow into the community. We can't afford to wait 25 years for the kids at the current CCM games to get their kids to the future CCM games. Its obvious that's what the FFA are trying to do with their model but we are operating in a different environment and it requires a different answer

Like the BBL we need to capitalise on the broader interest in our own sport and get a few quick wins on the board. Derbies have worked. Marquees are kind of there but are too hit and miss. We don't have big teams because we are too eager to tear them down (its unfortunate that Sydney might be shitkicking at the foot of the table next season before anybody has a chance to challenge them). Its obvious by ratings and attendances that fans (out of core support) want to see big teams, big players and big games

The AFL route is a dead end. Its not 1897. We can't use an 1897 solution

SBS news tonight. Tennis, afl, nrl, epl then HAL with a dodgy sd looking stream.... can't wait to fk these enemies off.

Sun STV #ALeague #FoxSports #BRIvCCM 62k

Sun STV #ALeague #FoxSports #MVCvWEL 43k

Need 14 teams - 26 rounds

Looks like the timmmay magik has well and truly worn off. 

For those interested, this is the STV ratings report for week 13 (to Fri 1 April 2017).

http://www.astra.org.au/pdf/news/STV_Ratings_Report_Week_13.pdf

Shows the top 10 sports broadcasts for the week, and the top five foxtel channels overall (3 of the top 5 are sports channels).

you simply have to be employed by the AFL to keep posting this garbage.

Mods, can you PLEASE lock and ban pippinu it is destroying many, many topics with irrelevant AFL-centric crap !!

OK I'm not Midfielder but I do have a few thoughts on this.

Firstly Jake is clearly a hugely passionate football fan.  Broadly I would like to see his plan or most of it implemented straight away and I'm sure the FFA would love to as well.  However, there is no magic wand and the funding issues that are mentioned are not quantified to the point of trivialisation.  I know that blaming money exasperates many football fans but its a harsh reality that's not going to be wished away. 

1.  Stadia - Jake proposes in his Vision, that all teams from A league to A3 league should own (or have a credible plan to own their stadiums in 10 years).  The number of A league teams that own the stadium they play out of currently is Zero.  In fact the number of elite teams that own their stadiums across Australian NRL, AFL, Super Rugby and even cricket is zero (Cronulla Sharks and Penrith Panthers grounds are owned by their Leagues clubs not the football club).  This is because these grounds are massively expensive.  No the state and local governments typically own these assets and provide them at typically peppercorn rentals (compared their costs) as a public good.  This is generally the case all around the world. A boutique 10,000 seat stadium would cost more than $100m to construct ignoring the land cost.  Absent an obscenely rich owner who is silly enough to gift the club the stadium.  This problem isn't going away anytime soon and remains the single biggest issue in the expansion of the A League.  That is we need government to pick up the tab for the major cost in establishing elite sporting teams, the stadium costs.  That is the beginning and the end of the discussion on expanding the league to 100 teams, or 30 or whatever.

2.  The money again - Jake quotes Jack Reilly who estimated that $3.3 billion has been spent on establishing the A league over the past 12 years.  That's $266 million a year on average over 12 years.  Or $26.7 million per team average 10 teams a year over the 12 years.  Anyone see my point here?  Yes its obvious.  Even if we grant the figures are right (which I think are overstated by probably 30%) its the old gross spend v net argument.  You may earn $100 a year but after expenses you may have 10 cents left over that you can choose to spend on a discretionary item not the $100 gross dollars.  

So the money isn't there to be diverted elsewhere its been spent on mainly players wages and wracking up losses running the league which over the 12 years would be $300 million.  By the way this is the real number spent establishing the league.  The money spent over and above the income generated.  

In summary, I would love to see Jake's plan or a variation of it implemented.  I applaud him for taking the time to write and share his ideas.  I wish he would spend just as much time on costing and funding the plan because while its important to dream big, when it comes to delivering you need achievable milestones along the way and no obvious deal breakers to stop you. 

100% this needs to happen for the 2018-19 season. as Bozza says, we need to be ambitious. but it wont happen.

It really should happen, but it would require some effort and risk that clearly the FFA wouldn't want to take.

- South Sydney (basically a lock for expansion as we all know)
- Red Bull Brisbane (we know RB's been prowling around and it would be foolish to turn them down if we're so desperate for money, plus there's a strong implication that a second QLD/Brisbane team will be in the next round of expansion if we believe the reports that Fox wants the next 2 teams from the three biggest urban areas)
- Tasmania (the strongest regional bid with decent backing, plus it increases the national scope and means there's a team in every state)
- The best bid from the following options: Geelong, South Melbourne, Canberra, Wollongong, Auckland.

And if the Wellington Phoenix isn't working out, then begin the process of moving them to the NZ League and bring in the best two bids of the above (except Auckland of course) and it's still 14 teams. Heck, there's enough for 16 teams right there if we keep WP and let Auckland in.

To free up some costs to jump to a 14-16 team league: get rid of the spending/salary floor, scrap the marquee fund, implement an uncapped AFC 4+1 rule (so teams can pay their foreigners outside the cap, allowing them to bring their own marquees if they want them), and the rest will be covered by the clubs themselves. There may be losses or risk involved in the first couple of years but that would be a huge step towards having a full league, plus the excitement and injection of new energy generated by having 4-6 new teams would be immense for the first couple of seasons. Best of all, it would be a proper round-robin (one home and one away against every other team) which would drastically reduce fixture fatigue and be an actual balanced schedule. And the FFA/Fox get derbies, marquees, new fixtures, new audiences, and essentially a new product for the duration of the TV deal.

However, such an action would require ambition and the ability to take a risk and we all know the FFA clearly has none of either.

I think Jakes plan is were we all want to be ...

I also think we will get there one day..

Some want it tomorrow.... 

Jake has done an excellent job he should be commended. I responded directly with Jake last week on it. He seems a very clever young man.to me.

My issue is two fold, and they directly connect to each other.

1] Money to fund it...

2] Increasing our market size / acceptance ..

We are in an evolution, and we exist in a market called Australia .... years of bias, years of attacks... years of bogan's banging on about their sport... bogans in charge of most levels of government i.e. police see reaction to Home Ends... stadium ground staff ... I could go on ... like bogans in charge of the media ... see PM taking Chinese pollie to the AFL ... 

You can't turn this around with simple magic things some people think...

However disappointing the solution is just to keep plugging away ... 

However before to much doom and gloom we are SSSOOOOO so so so so close to a big nay major nay mega break through ... 

aufc Jake's ideas will one day or something close will come to pass ... but we have to build up a lot in certain areas ... I understand many don't agree but Rome was not build in a day..

However as I said a mega break through is hhhmmmm nay will happen within hhhhhhmmmm eerrrr 3 years ... 

aufc

Reading some posters and TIC ... this could be a 442 poster leading some Football fans on FFA...

enjoy... only 33 seconds... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yU44Xk5fFI

But we need to move on getting the structures in place to reach this ultimate goal. Obviously money to professionalise the 2nd tier and so on will take time but it won't happen without it ever being there to build on in the first place.

Yes, it's going to take time, hard work and some set backs but it sure as hell won't ever happen if we "consolidate" for another 6 years. If you are waiting for slightly more mainstream media acceptance and an extra 1,000 people through the gates a week for 9 teams before even STARTING to move then we run the very real risk of stagnating then collapsing from within. Again.

Absolutely correct.... we need to move ... and who said consolidate for another six years ...

Stagnating and collapsing from within .... mate ...  honestly ... 

BTW we now have mainstream acceptance ... IMO a job well done .. its within today where most of the negative stuff comes from...

We are actually so so so so so so so so close to a major jump .... I think within or well within 3 years we will get a major bump and if handled well will be followed  by most of the things people are calling for .... IMO FFA, the clubs know it ... the six year bit if anything is the media deal we are stuck with .... however with one buyer and our ratings ...

The argument is about timing and whether or not the foundations are as strong as they could be .. this is a subjective value judgement needed by those with all the facts ... 



 

 

We need promotion and relegation and we need the removal of the salary cap.  Football in this country will expand and grow organically if it is left to a free market atmosphere.  Football in Australia has the most juniors playing than any other sport in Australia.  If all these juniors playing do so with the thought that one day their club might grow enough to play in the top teir this will create a culture of passion, the same kind of passion we see in Europe.

We seek to sack Gallop and the other spineless self-servant FFA board members and move forward with bravery.

Believe it or not we are almost in total agreement..

The issue we will have is the planning and timing to get there ... my ideas require quick rapid growth ... i.e 16 teams within 4 to 5 years... plus within two years we have developed the structure for a "B" league to start somewhere between 4 & 6 years time.... Also sometime over the next two years we identify and develop key markers as to when our market is ready for P & R.

Introducing P & R without proper planning at this stage of our evolution IMO Could do a lot of damage. But if we identify when it should be done IMO this shows intent, gives something to work towards and reduces risks.

As for Gallop ... without going over pass ground ... Gallop is not the problem his role is to put in place in an efficient manner FFA policy ... FFA are a very hands on board ... both Frank and now Stephen as the chairman of the board instruct Gallop what to do.... Gallop takes instruction today from Lowy jnr this where the problem is ... 

Thank you for replying and I like your ideas.  

Yes it needs to be structured.  I think my comments are probably what many people are feeling.  I think the football community in Australia are very frustrated and want change.  Just the thought of a promotion and relegation competition in Australia is exciting.  It is hard to imagine it not working.  Watching teams fight their butts off not to be at the bottom, is just as exciting as watching the teams trying to stay at the top.

I was not fully aware of the structure of the FFA so I will retract my Gallop sacking comment.  Just frustration coming out.

Just on the Gallop thing.

This bit gets me so annoyed ... the FFA board decide policy [more latter on this] ...

FFA as I said are a very hands on board and hands on boards demand their CEO's implement their policy. If the FFA board said to Gallop go and develop a decent P & R system, IMO he would do a good job at setting it up... 

Back to the hands on board ... this is the big story in my reading of the Taro Cards essentially what the clubs and PFA want to change ... the structure and set up of the board and maybe finish of the Crawford report.

My hope nay belief if enough clever Football folk get around a table and with FIFA and the AFC saying it must happen  new governance systems will be put in place. This new system will then set about improving gains already made.

Also as I keep saying we are so so so so so so so so so so so so so so close to the next leap I would hate to for the sake of a few months .. 

While a laudable aim, there will be no P&R in Australia for at least 17 years.  The current HAL teams excluding WP have had their licences extended until 2034.  So the only PR could be attached to new entrants, an extremely unlikely scenario.   Just stop.  Please, wasting your time "howling at the moon".

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/the-restlessness-of-the-aspirationals/ 

Gallop is without a doubt the best sports administrator in Australia.  We are lucky to have him just look at the dross in charge of AFL and NRL if you want a reference point.  He may not do what many here want him to do.  No surprise really and extremely well summed up in the ignorance of Dawdle (no offence intended mate) on what a Board does and what management does for sports administrator roles.  

Its OK for sports pundits and NT coaches as well to talk big from their positions of safety to curry popularity and attention.  They are like the Greens, they can throw bombs and barbs and appeal to nearly everyone in the confidence that they will never have to deliver a single one of their promises.   

Yes, you DO keep saying so i ask you, on what do you base this prediction?
The stagnating numbers across the board?
A TV deal which offers not enough money to fund the two expansion teams promised without taking money from the other clubs who are actually asking for an increase? 

Won't bother asking what you base that claim on

The same source that will get us to host the WC in 2018 and/or 2022. 

Gallop is without a doubt the best sports administrator in Australia.  We are lucky to have him just look at the dross in charge of AFL and NRL if you want a reference point.

The AFL guy stumbles from one disaster to another and so does the NRL guy.  Both are reactionary, try and cover up poor player behaviour (spectacularly poorly so in the AFL case with covered up player drugs scandals emerging left and right).

In order to be the best you just have to beat the competition.  Where are the same scandals and administrative failures dogging Gallop?  His worst crime is the brinkmanship over the new player deal that stuffed up last years season launch and cost us key momentum.  In my view that problem was caused by the players being let down by their previous management compounding the problems.  But you cant win for losing.  Gallops deputy (De Bohn) let him down and was punted, but the buck stops with Gallop.  This forum wants the FFA and him to spend money that doesnt exist, now!  In the real world with grown ups and real money that doesn't happen.  But gnash your teeth and throw stones.  I notice people only touch on peripheral points rather than the substance of my posts which is the money isnt there for all these grand plans and we will have to grow as we can afford it. like everyone else does.  

I knew I would get no fans for the post, relatively, supporting Gallop or the one about PR but both are factually accurate if you are willing to take your blinkers off and look at the facts objectively.

Having said that I think one of the key issues facing the game in Australia is the reform required of the FFA Board.  I despise nepotism and thats what we have.  Even FIFA supports reforming the FFA board election processes.

On a side note.  I really hoped we might win the 2018 or 2022 WC when I joined this forum in 2009.  It seemed a good chance as our only really credible opposition (Japan & Korea) had hosted the WC only a short time before.  We know how that ended...Hence my name changing to WC1day.  

Serious question ... do you want to know why I am so confident ... as the answer actually looks at an analyses what FFA have researched and what FFA have done ...

Further it uses existing business models of technology take up, combined with human behavioural models.

So first it is going to credit FFA with some things they have done in the past, second it uses essentially business models that are used to predict future trends.

Meaning its a bit of an effort to do... which I don't mind doing but not for someone who already has a closed mind and thinks if we start P & R tomorrow ... all the children will join hands and gladly show the world how great we are leading to an out flowing of support and by simply   introducing P & R everything will be sunshine, lolly pops and sugar coated lemon drops.

So is it a serious ask with an open mind ...