Mark Bosnich and Mark Rudan on ‘the darkest day in Australian club football’

ELEVEN goals. Two games.

Brisbane Roar are now equal with Newcastle Jets for the worst result by an A-League club in the Asian Champions League after conceding six goals against Ulsan FC.

But Western Sydney Wanderers weren’t far behind after going down 5-1 to Shanghai SIPG.

Fox Sports’ Mark Rudan labelled it as “the darkest day in Australian club football,” while Mark Bosnich said the “embarrassing” results would hurt Australia’s football brand around the world.

“But there are a whole lot of other issues,” said Bosnich. “A whole lot of other things are happening.”

Here’s the breakdown.

HIGHLIGHTS TO HURT AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL’S BRAND

“When this goes around the world they’re going to go, ‘What’s going on with the A-League?’” Bosnich said.

Seriously, what will they think?

Brisbane conceded three goals in the first half and then three in the second period. Hulk scored within three minutes before Oscar doubled the lead. Mitch Nichols hit back but that just saw Shanghai add more.

Bosnich added: “A lot of them did not look like they wanted to be out there.

“This is the end result of everything we’ve been talking over the last three years.

“This is Australian football’s brand ... We’re going backwards.”

Rudan recalled how Socceroos coach Ange Postecoglou said Australia “as a footballing nation have lost respect in Europe”.

“Gone is the golden generation ... opposed to other [South East Asia] countries who have elevated.”

Bosnich added: “We should be ringing up Gianni Infantino [FIFA president] and thanking him for expanding the World Cup, because this is where it’s going.”

‘DARKEST DAY IN AUSTRALIAN CLUB FOOTBALL’

Brisbane Roar are one of the most successful teams in A-League history, while Western Sydney Wanderers had a “phenomenal” start to their club history.

Now it’s just “depressing, mind-boggling and we need to address it,” according to Rudan.

“Powers at be need to speak up in the headquarters also need to speak up.”

He added: “We have got so many issues need to be addressed, that need to be spoken about, that need to be fixed. We want our game to flourish.

“We want to be not just the best in Asia, as Ange says, we want to be the best in the world one day.

“Right now, this is probably the darkest day in Australian club football.”

‘WE’VE GONE BACKWARDS IN SO MANY AREAS’

“It’s not about the money that needs to spend,” Rudan said.

“We’ve spoken about the two Croatian imports (Mislav Orsic and Ivan Kovacec) for Ulsan who tore us to bits - mind you they would be $150-200,000 in a salary cap in Australia, if someone had gone out and had a look at them and brought them to our country.

“Instead, they’re producing this kind of football in a different competition in a different country.

“We’ve gone backwards in so many areas... We have been discussing this for a while.”

Bosnich added: “This has been coming for a long time and it’s going to be coming to the Socceroos team.”


ISSUE 1: TRANSFER FEES

“It’s absolutely ridiculous,” Bosnich said.

$7000 - That’s the maximum a National Premier League club can charge on a transfer fee after developing a player no matter what they go on to do.

“The NPL has developed top class players ... What type of incentive have you got to go and pay a coach to train players? That has got to stop,” Bosnich said.

ISSUE 2: SALARY CAP

“That salary cap’s supposed to be an equaliser - that’s a mirage,” Bosnich said.

The difference between first and 10th place in the A-League is 36 points but it’s not that wide in any of Europe’s top five leagues.

Adelaide, the Wanderers and the Roar finished first, second and third last year but now they’re 10th, sixth and fifth and have essentially “been punished for their success” in the Asian Champions League.

Unable to spend money on buying more players, each team has been dismantled by high-spending Asian teams.

“It’s ridiculous,” said Bosnich.

“Forget other sports... they have not got an international market.

“We are playing against the rest of the world and you’re continually punishing people for success.”

Western Sydney Wanderers' midfielder Mitch Nichols.
Western Sydney Wanderers' midfielder Mitch Nichols.Source: AFP
ISSUE 3: LACK OF AMBITION

FFA: Why the A-League can’t expand right now

Rudan said Australia “100 per cent” lacks ambition when it comes to providing opportunities.

“There’s that many kids who are desperate and dreaming to make a football career for themselves,” Rudan said.

“But their dreams are stopped because there aren’t enough opportunities for them.”

Rudan says with 10 A-League teams, “we’re not giving it [opportunity] to them”.

A lack of opportunities is leading to young players stopping to play football, even though all they wanted to do for most of their life was become a professional footballer. Then it’s a coach or volunteer who has to let them down.

“I’ve had those chats with crying players in my dressing room. It's tough because you are so passionate about the game.

“We are denying kids the chance to show their talent and we are losing so many.”


He added that FFA’s lack of money is a “poor” and “lazy” excuse not to expand.

“There are so many upsides to creating not just two but hopefully four more clubs,” Rudan said.

“Build it and they will come. We have that many kids playing that we have to change it.”

Football has the highest participation of sport among kids in Australia, but it hasn’t translated in the A-League

“We have that many kids who are play our game who just aren’t given the opportunity to play in the top competition,” Rudan said.

“If they can’t do it here, that’s why they pack their suitcases at 14, 15 and completely change their whole life because they’re denied an opportunity in our country - it can’t happen. We’ve got to change that.”

‘JUST AS GOOD AS ANYWHERE’

“John Barnes - Liverpool legend - said the boys here from 8-12 are just as good here as anywhere in the world,” Bosnich said.

“So what’s happening from 12-20?”

http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/asian-champions-league/mark-bosnich-and-mark-rudan-on-the-darkest-day-in-australian-club-football/news-story/e751d7562a2b64fe45a821e35c1ee2ba

Football has the highest participation of sport among kids in Australia, but it hasn’t translated in the A-League
“We have that many kids who are play our game who just aren’t given the opportunity to play in the top competition,” Rudan said.
“If they can’t do it here, that’s why they pack their suitcases at 14, 15 and completely change their whole life because they’re denied an opportunity in our country - it can’t happen. We’ve got to change that.”
‘JUST AS GOOD AS ANYWHERE’
“John Barnes - Liverpool legend - said the boys here from 8-12 are just as good here as anywhere in the world,” Bosnich said.
“So what’s happening from 12-20?”

Why a second division is so important

"So what’s happening from 12-20?”

:laugh:

No argument from me!

i would say the FFA's statement on expansion was a far worse experience than getting our arses handed to us again in the ACL.  Because one thing has caused the other.

12 years. Still only 10 teams.

I agree with this, the darkest times are made in the FFA boardroom with their lack of vision and leadership. Two teams getting smacked in round 2 is annoying. but not the end of the world. 

So true. The evening and mood was already under a dark cloud to begin with, after the demoralizing statements of FFA yesterday for eg. "Our model that we have shoved down everyone's throats, that we've talked ourselves up about and hijacked the sport with, btw, its not sustainable. And sorry, no expansion for another 2 years". 

And then came the drubbings. Insult to injury.

And dont mean to nitpick, but its only 9 Australian clubs after 12 years (will be 14 years according to FFA now). So 14 years and 9 Pro Australian clubs. Awesome.

Just watched the video, was great. 

@tsf what r u on about? Our results in the Asian champions league have been so embarrasing and they represent the quality of the A-league compared to other Asian leagues. The A-league is so much being top Asian leagues, it highlights so many issues
Salrary cap, expansion etc. salary cap is meant to ensure fairness for us, yet it does the exact opposite in terms of improving iur wuality of football and competing in Asia
Just look at the results from A-league teams this campaign

Week 1:
0-0 brisbain drew Muangthong. (They are a Thai club)
4-0 Urawa defeat wsw
3-0 Gamba deafts Adeliade
Week 2:
6-0 Ulsan defeat Brisbaine
5-1 Shanghai deafeat wsw

All of our 3 A-league teams are bottom of their group........ Absolutley atrocious

You mean the same Thai club that beat Kashima and are now sitting top of the group table? 

Covered all the TV interview last night.

Thanks for quoting the article again, really appreciate reading it again

Clubs who qualify for the ACL are shortly after qualifying, weaker than they were, than when they qualified.

AU and WSW are weaker now than when they qualified.

I thought Roar were possibly better than last season, but they were dismal against Ulsan last night.

They were outclassed.

The full backs were outpaced by Ulsan wingers, who constantly got in behind and played crosses. The central defence lost shape.

The squeezing of Ulsan was high intensity, whereas Roar's was  often languid. This enabled Ulsan to play with more time on the ball.

As soon as Roar lost the ball, they struggled to contain the Ulsan counter attacks.

In the past, sometimes the Asian teams are very sharp at the beginning of the ACL, but their domestic leagues seem to wear them out as the ACL season progresses.

we usually have weaker sides qualifying. But there has been a gradual improvement from year to year (up to year to year fluctuations)
this is an alarming drop in quality

They both hit the nail on the head, couldn't have said it any better.

Get a grip...

Darkest day in club football? Or darkest day in the last 2 years. FFS, can think of dozens of offfield things worse than getting spanked. Also, check the history books for some scores from touring teams. 

If you think it's all about the results you're missing the point.

No, but club football has been in way worse positions. Football is dull and crap here, but laughbale to suggest it's at its darkest days. 

Finally watched the whole video, brought back memories of Johnny Warren unleashing back in the day on sbs.

link?
 to the Bozza video.

It is on fox sports A-league

Towards the end, Adam said he knew of a Chinese investor willing to put in money for a club.  I wonder if that is true and if so, who it is.

Cheers, I found it.

Its refreshing and frustrating at the same time to see people so passionate about our game but knowing if you put that video on a desk in FFA HQ it would just fall on deaf ears.

You only need to look at Bozza's eyes to see how much this hurts. Not only for him but every football person in this country.

Scheduling is a massive issue for the current sides, last year we had both sides make the second round but we knew it was a fluke in the way it was done, fox sports and the FFA need take responsibility and help the sides with the fixtures.

Dundeee spanked a local side 16-1, Bristol Rovers put 9 away, Rapid Vienna putting 10 away 

I think youre missing the nuances. And the bigger picture. Its not just about drubbings. Its that the drubbings came on the same day as FFA making demoralizing statements in regards to their own model being unsustainable, no expansion; lack of player pathways, salary caps, etc and all the other factors that contribute to the gargantuan gulf between us and our Asian neighbours. Teams get spanked in the A-League 5-0, but thats a different conversation. The point is, It was a dark day before either team walked onto the pitch. And the moment was (rightly) hijacked by the panel to illustrate a point.

Unless you think that the list of problems they raised arent stifling the development, growth and quality of the game. 

Those things listed annoy me so much I've started to turn away from attending the game at top level and prefer to spend time at my local club. But any of us that have seen football over an extended period of time know we have been in a lot darker positions - that is not to excuse the current managemnet though. 

In the video they did say "darkest days since joining Asia."

Ah, cool 

Yep lets just sweep this under a huge carpet.

It might be ACL results last night, but also our youth teams have nothing been short of horrible in the last couple of years, its a bigger issue and thankfully Bozza and Mark Rudan have the balls to say it what we all fell what is going on in Aus. football.

This will continue to happen in the next few years if things dont change fast.

Yesterday was probably the worst day in Oz Football since we joined Asia, people need to wake up and realise there is a bigger problem arising..hopefully this doesn't effect the socceroos in the short term.

They're just using these results to lash out about a bunch of other things, many of which are legitimate. The news yesterday about the delaying of expansion was the likely catalyst.

Wish it was a little less ranty though.

Why a little less Ranty?  this is a serious matter that could have bigger implications. WE NEED TO EXPAND, WE NEED PRO/REL, WE DONT NEED A SALARY CAP. The FFA says that they lack the funds, I don't believe that for a minute. These absolute thieves have come in and stolen the game away from people just because of their 'business' expertise in running a franchise (get out and let the people who are passionate about it RUN IT). Once these scum from the FFA wake up and realise that without taking a risk they aren't going to get any richer, they are as blind as bats to not see the potential gold mine they are sitting on top of. Absolute rubbish. They may seem "ranty" because of the passion that Rudes and Bozza have for the game, these are the expressions shown on behalf of probably a quarter of the countries population.

no personal attack

You questioned my opinion, that's in no way a personal attack.

In the context of when it happened a rant is alright and I like that they're passionate. However, we need to have a more serious debate about these things. I would like Gallop to appear on a show like Shootout and put some context to some of the stuff that Bozza rants about.

Desperate times, and all that.

roar's 6-0 rout doesn't surprise me after seeing their bris-syd-seoul-ulsan economy class and bus itinerary, inevitable that they would be very sluggish 

as Simon Hill stated on our local AFL radio
more money needs to be put into football and not internationally dead end sports.

Did you hear the dickheads calling up afterwards? Every stereotype under the sun :laugh:

Correct , absolute narrow minded ...But what can we expect from the Pro AFL media that is 5aa / Nova /newscorp
Simon Hill even pointed to the olympics , Australia struggled big time  in the last event... 

Sen or is this Adelaide local radio? 

Adelaide local
5aa , part of the Nova group, which is part of newscorp

https://soundcloud.com/fiveaa/simon-hill-28217

They don't podcast the callers of course but the usual "soccer puts me to sleep" and "I like women's soccer because it's a girl's game" type callers came out of the woodwork.

I have heard him on that show before. He certainly never holds back.

@sokrony
You cant just base an entire findings of weather the salary cap needs to be abolished based on 2 resilts of wsw winning the acl and adeliade making the finals. You do relized top Asian leagues have won the ACL much more than we have? Just cause we won it once does not mean the salary cap isnt bad. Sure wsw won it but its not like wsw could compete with thoose Asian anymore after they decided to spend even more.

No top leagie in the world has a salary cap
The salary cap is so stupid and unnecessary in football where money is of importance. There is so much compeition. In fact what
Leagues even have the salary cap. We probs have one cause we cant dont have much money but even then if it improves the quality of the game and competitivness in Asia which comes with multiple benifits its a no brainer.

Yet what led to the creation of this thread and discussion?? Two games ... not even two ACL campaigns as I used as examples.

Bosnich is woke 

To the issues listed are a little backwards IMO.

1. Transfer fees - so they're suggesting because NPL clubs only get a small cut that players aren't making the step up, or NPL clubs aren't training players to a higher quality (just high enough to help NPL teams win)?? The local amateur clubs might as well fold now then if that is the attitude of NPL coaches .... I agree that NPL clubs should be able to negotiate better transfers, but I don't think that would have made a huge difference last night. Also there is a catch 22 ... if you increase NPL transfer fees then the A-League youth teams start to poach players at an earlier age from NPL clubs, thus negating the need to pay a fee later.

2. Salary cap - agree that if A-League clubs want to be competitive in Asia it is required to go, but what is the goal of most A-League clubs?? ACL or A-League?? Not to mention Adelaide United made a final and WSW won a final under a salary cap system. They also contradicted themselves earlier by saying the two Croats that tore them apart would have fitted under our salary cap. So this suggests that A-League club scouts aren't as good, or the A-League can't attract the players (given the large expat Croat communities in Australia, our living conditions etc. if they were offered the same wage and told to pick between Australia and China I wouldn't have thought it would take them long to decide Australia).

3. Lack Ambition - really?? Again was this an issue or a consequence that led to these results?? Sure it would be great to have more A-League sides, but again shouldn't the cream be rising to the top anyway?? Not to mention that there are opportunities all around the world for them to make a living off the game, compared to Aussie Rule players who only have 18 teams across the whole world to try in make a living from the sport. Yet we see mature recruits to the AFL, and each week these players put all their heart into games knowing that there is no higher level for them to go to (no international team, no club continental games, no world cups, no confed cups, no club world champions, no cups, etc. etc.) Why do these Aussie rule players not lack ambition but so many soccer players do???

1/ If NPL clubs could negotiate, instead of a pittance, they could negotiate 100k + 25% of future sales or whatever.
2/ The issue is not making the ACL, but what happens when you loose all your players. Transfers need to happen and maybe the salary cap needs to go.
3/ So it's an issue of coaching then, or scouting?

1. But still doesn't reflect the results last night. It is a completely separate issue that needs to be addressed.

2. Again would the salary cap have kept the players?? From my understanding Poppa pretty much had a clean sweep of his squad (nothing to do with any players complaining they wanted more money), Adelaide was hit by transfers ... but again was it the salary that was the big factor in those transfers, or the chance for European football?? Brisbane's only big loss I am aware of from last season was Corona (Kristensen is probably better IMO, and they also recruited Holman)

3. Don't know ... but is it's the administration role to provide ambition?? To a degree yes, but really it comes down to the Club, managers, coaches, staff, other players etc. etc. It is the same in most workplaces.

But look Rudan was a coach at an NPL club and is very faithful to them. So unfortunately his view will be a little bias, and I think he has used the results to drive his agenda rather than address the reasons for the results.

1/ But it is an inherent problem, kids getting charged $1000-$2500 a year, transfer fees could offset that a little and expose everyone to good training, or better training. It is a large subject, with many nuances.
2/ Maybe, it's a point in case, but transfers between clubs would mean that those clubs could have strengthened, whilst benefiting other clubs. Bigger clubs could offer bigger contracts, like Milligan for example.
3/yep.

Maybe, he may see how Aussie football is going and would like the lower leagues to be better financed as well as reducing fees for youth and allowing more pathways, better paid and trained coaches etc.

If there was serious transfer fees NPL clubs may start taking development more seriously.  If there was a good stable revenue stream available they could invest in better coaches and facilities as well as player scholarships or subsidised registration fees.

Agree ... but I still feel this is not a reason for the results last night.

What are the reasons?

Poor recruitment by clubs, club's focus on the ACL (many send weakened squads to games and save stronger sides for A-League), management issues?? (Wanderers looked absolutely terrible against Glory on the weekend, could have won easily by more goals), fatigue / scheduling, tactics??, how prepared were these teams for these matches??, and all the background stuff we have no idea about.

In regards to the salary cap the reason for me is more that without a salary cap you enable strong sides to recruit better, play in the ACL regularly etc. but the flip-side is that you may get a dominant few sides only in the A-League (what is the priority?? A ever-changing of the guard in the A-League or a few dominant domestic teams playing well in the ACL??)

Stronger sides increase the quality of the league, therefore more money, which leads to better development and the 'smaller clubs'on an evenly spread TV deal to get better players themselves. While Aussie players develop better due to higher competition and opens up a loaning system between clubs.

Agree

If there was a serious second division, that would bridge the gap between HAL and NPL, it would expose more players to higher competition, maybe HAL clubs could loan players, more easily scouted players. This is a big reason why there have been very little overage newcomers (whatever the HAL calls it), or young players of 18-20 being HAL ready.
The gap is too large.
Mooy said the difference between the championship was that everyone was at a certain level, where in the HAL we have a couple of great players, a few really good ones, some good ones but quite a few mediocre ones. The reason for a second division is to bring the standard up so the level is an ever growing constant, if that makes sense and I think a second division provides that.
Salary cap means that a team of relatively good quality can be obtained, whilst transfers are a means to an end of the product.

I'll repeat Bozzas stat. 36 points seperate top and bottom in the salary capped A-League, (and according to Bozza cbf checking) thats a bigger disparity than the Big 5 uncappped leagues. Epl etc. Clearly financial restrictions dont bear the fruit they purport to. 

Salary caps dont belong in world football. Youre trying to justify an anomaly.

What salary caps tend to do is not so much even out the competition in a particular season, but tend to ensure teams only dominant a league for a few years. Look at most salary capped leagues around the world, you'll find that teams have periods of strength for 3 to 4 years and then slip down the ladder (this is extending of late as better understanding of player management means stars hang around longer and at the top their game, and of course depends on the sport). The AFL is a prime example of this (the NBA and NFL tend to follow a similar suite ... esp. with franchise players).

There have been 4 different EPL champions since the start of the A-League, similarly 4 in the Bundesliga, only 3 in La Liga and Serie A (with around 30 teams competing in those leagues over that period). The A-League has had 6 premiers in that same time (out of around 14 teams who've competed) ... only Ligue 1 has had 6 champions in that time, however PSG have won the last 4 in a row and around 30 teams would have competed for the league during that period.

Furthermore no team in the A-League has won the premiership twice in a row (only once has a team won back to back championships). In Serie A Juventus has won it 5 times in a row (probably make it 6 this year) and Inter also won it 5 times in a row since the A-League has started. Bayern are on track to win their 5th in a row.

This is what the FFA are trying to stop in the A-League, right or wrong??

I suppose the argument is that as a fan you start each season knowing that your team has a chance at the title.  So it's supposed to keep crowds interested because no one will follow a team that constantly loses right?

The issue with that is that it makes for more fairweather fans who are affected by how their team is performing, because everyone has high expectations and by default the majority will be disappointed.  People can show up when they still have a shot, but drop ooff when they're losing, knowing that at some point they'll come good again (impact of salary cap).  I'd argue that the way you build a loyal fanbase is to have a club and fans who have realistic expectations of where their teams sits, and a salary cap makes that very hard to do.  I.e. if I'm a supporter of a team in England where our season is defined by whether we avoid relegation or not, I go into every game knowing that it'll be a scrap and a tough game, and that a loss is a decent probability.  And I'm more likely to stick it out with a string a losses.

In the A-League, a string of losses often sees crowds fade away, and that may be because of the high expectations that aren't being met.  Scrapping the cap may mean that Central Coast becomes a small club that struggles every year.  But the fans who turn up will be the loyal and rusted-on fans who will stick by the club no matter what.

CCM would see survival as success, aim to finish above local rival.

Does any of those NPL clubs on an FFA cup run think they'll actually win it ?

Season is still on an edge for this lot

How boring. They need a finals series  !

"Look at most salary capped leagues around the world"

There are none. That's the point.

And who cares if Bayern are on track to win their 5th in a row. Is the bundesliga weak and not sustainable like the A-League ? Is the German national team suffering? 

And you dont think that the success of La Liga, depends on the success of Barca and Real Madrid (who win it most years) and are what helps draw the away crowds when they tour all over Spain every week? Everyone in Australia would come out every week to watch them play too regardless if their team was copping hidings. They just got to watch the best footballers on the planet. Its not rocket science. 

I think theres one side to the Australian mentality where people fail to fully appreciate the gravity of winning and think its a god given right. Thats what made winning the epl so special for Leicester. Its not something they just hand out to clubs every year. 

Was the best half time segment ever. Most who watched the games up to that point would have been lost for words but credit to Bozza and Rudes bringing the passion.

Agree.

Gallop has to go.

I wonder if the Fox higher-ups think like Rudan and Bosnich.  You'd think if they did they'd tell the FFA they have to expand.  How does the status quo benefit Fox?

But we are a unique sporting environment! 

How does everybody feel about a finals football boycott? That would hit the FFA in the only place it would feel it: its pocket. Meanwhile, the teams we support aren't financially affected.

I'm just waiting for someone to start a boycott, people would join

I'll boycott the finals this season in support.