Its amazing how many people on here love watching tiered football in europe and have no idea how tiered football is supposed to work and what it will do for football in this country.

The first thing I want to mention is that we have never had proper pro/relegation. I am talking from the NSL era up until now. It might have been attempted at some point but it was never fully enacted season upon season. So before everyone says "but we had pro/rel in the NSL and it didn't work". Well no we didn't. The next thing that I want to mention is that it DOES NOT MAKE ONE DIFFERENCE what teams are in the top tier. Everyone is so concerned about this and will always come up with the doomsday scenario, what if Sydney FC, Victory, Jets, WSW are all relegated in the first few seasons of the A-league. What it means is that for that season they were relegated they were a shit club and that they are not entitled to a spot in the top tier. If they are indeed a "big club' they will come back the following year and get promoted and will probably be better off for it. If you come with the mentality that the best clubs are playing year in and year out then your head will be able to survive the football  pyramid. This is what we want, the best clubs competiting year in and year out. If we started this journey years ago we would be in a stronger position with more professional clubs and our top tier would be excellent. 

The next thing is football culture and our ambitions as a football nation. I can tell you now Australia will never win a world cup if we do not have promotion and relegation. That should be the football goal of every football playing nation. Obviously that dream is not attainable for every nation on earth, but for a rich country like Australia with huge resources of wealth and know how you would think we should be closer than most. If small countries such as Croatia and Uruguay can manage this then why can't Australia. The reason small nations such as Uruguay and Croatia are able to compete on the world stage is that most of their players are exposed to the daily pressures of playing their football in a pro/rel environment, whether that is in their own countries or in other countries with strong football leagues. While Croatia's domestic football league is not strong they have a strong ability of identifying talent and developing their juniors. They are big on the technical development of the player and playing football in the right way, there are no short cuts and no soft ball anecdotal reports such as the whole of football plan. They understand what works and they stick to it. The individual players skill is paramount to the development of the national team and they do this in pressurized enviornments to enhance decision making.  Over time we will develop our own football culture much like the Japanese did when they first introduced their J-league and soon after their pyramid. The development of their football culture obviously happens over time and I would suggest that having a pro/rel component to their system is a big reason why it has developed. They went from a country which barely had a football league to a country which has a fantastic tier of football clubs and a robust 1st tier and producing some of the finest players in the region. 

Everything is on the cards in  a pro/rel environment. By that I mean you will do what you need to do to survive. For some clubs this will mean going bust, for others it means merging with other clubs. Nothing wrong with that provided you take that to your members and they agree to a proposed merger. It might also mean the establishment of new clubs, take over and investment of old clubs, existing clubs stepping up and providing more investment as the football eco system is developed and allowed to flourish. This is the dynamic that we will be facing when a proper tiered structure gets under way. It might mean that our top tier is filled with 80% of teams from the East Coast or it has some small club from Tasmania for a year, then again it might not. However each season pans out depends on the merit of each and every club no matter where they are located. Either way it will be a hell of a lot more interesting than what we have currently. EVERY YEAR the league is refreshed with new teams, potential relegation battles, new derbies. Watching the fortunes of your club rise and fall, and riding that emotional roller coaster throughout the year, supporting your team through thick and thin including when the team gets relegated and then celebrating like crazy when they get promoted. The strength of football and our unique selling point is exactly what I have illustrated above, why we dont embrace that is beyond me, because it would be amazing when it happens. 

The problem with pro/rel is that every club has a self interest. No one wants to be that first team relegated, especially into a nothing NSD. So it is very important to have a strong NSD, the processes and the integrity of tiered football are absolutely paramount. No one club should be above another club, it should be a proper heirachy where all the clubs are treated the same in the tier. There is nothing complicated about pro/rel or tiered football. Every year the best clubs are competiting, they will have earned that right and as long as we can accept that some of these clubs will be large well supported clubs and others might be small regional clubs then it should be fine. At the end of the day the pyramid wont lie and you will be exactly where you deserve to be. 

EXACTLY!
The overwhelming vast majority of real football clubs in Australia have no interest or desire at all to play professionally or in the top national league or second national league. Heck, the vast majority don't even want to play in the top league in their State.

It is only the elite A League clubs and NPL clubs who are concerned about the way the top two national tiers are structured.
Real community clubs are not affected by this, except that we are the ones that pay to subsidise the NPL clubs through our State Federation fees.

Did anyone mention that every tier of football down to grass roots Association/Club involved is looking to climb the elevator ? more so the top end.
Don't think so. WTF you guys on about.
Climbing the elevator for whats talked about   Div 1 AL
                                                                         Div2  NSD is for those Clubs who want to participate.
Heck where I'm actively involved PL2/3 there are many Clubs who are happy staying where they are - period.
Thats good and not so good imo but alot also has to do regards to costs.

For those 2 top flights pro or semi pro leagues - RBBanonymous agreed.
We need to inspire the sheer satisfaction of winning and the dreaded feeling and desparation avoiding relegation.
Both levels feed off each other, great for the game, the clubs who love being in that competitve realm and great for our players development !

A Club is not required to accept promotion if promoted and promotion is not automatic without the required infrastructure.

Most Federations already operate programs outside their State League competitions to accommodate the grassroots player.

On the other hand numbers in the grassroots ecosystem would suggest we are doing something right. If there is one area in the game that we arent doing well is player retention. Solve that and you won't have enough facilities to accommodate the participants.

P/R is a facility to apply fairness of opportunity for clubs that seek to operate at the highest level they can achieve.  Not all clubs operate for this purpose nor should they be required to or expected to.

It is good that State Federations allow the operation of competitions outside the elite arm of football.  They are essential to the wellbeing of the game and as important to the health of the football ecosystem as any other part of the game.  We need them all to be healthy for the game to be healthy.

Compared to well developed football countries our numbers in the grassroots ecosystem are quite low.  Even our states/territories with highest penetration are at best only 50% of the levels in the better developed countries.  The so called AFL states have penetration way below this.

Retention is a problem.  NNSWF for example has a published churn near 25% pa. FNSW is closer to 20%.  Despite this between them they still provide 55% of the registered players in Australia.  In many localities the demand for facilities is already greater than the availability and government has been made aware of the shortfall and some money is being provided.

One of the major priorities for FFA should be assisting the growth of the grassroots in the AFL states as it is essential that the quality of the game is grown from below not just by providing opportunity at the top.  As an example doubling the number of players might lead to a 15% increase in players presenting to the player development pathway providing greater competition for spots resulting in better players at all levels of the elite part of the game over time.  Another major priority for the FFA is to "assist" those states/territories with higher player numbers to increase the size of competitions in the elite part of the game so that there are more opportunities for young players coming through.  My suggestion is that every competition at the national, NPL and State league level be mandated to have 16 clubs.

A NSD although essential is no more important than removing the "inadequacies" at every level in the football ecosystem.

Christ no ones fucking talking about the amateur level when they are having this discussion. They are already accommodated within the system, bringing them up is just unhelpful and pointless.

Well you had better have a word with those people on here that regularly say that every club should be have the opportunity to progress through P/R to the top of the pyramid.  That is totally inappropriate in Australia even though in countries like Germany it is how football is structured.

The key word there is "opportunity". They shouldn't be forced to enter the pyramid, and local leagues for grassroots football are fine working the way they are. But a club should have the possibility to join the bottom rung of the pyramid and try to work their way up. Like how in England there is a split between Saturday and Sunday league football.

I don't think that pro-rel is a panacea that by itself will turn us into Uruguay, but it will have an appreciable effect on player development. Likewise, I don't really think we need to worry about the big clubs being relegated. Even when they have disastrous seasons (e.g. MV this year) they still avoid coming last, and if there is the threat of relegation you can guarantee that they will throw everything at avoiding the drop. What you will end up seeing is a stratification where the top 4-6 clubs never get relegated, then a middle tier of clubs who may occasionally go down, and finally a tier of yo-yo clubs who bounce up and down between the divisions. Whether there is a salary cap will have an effect, but even now with the cap there is a sizable gap between the bigger and smaller clubs, and that's fine.

On the flipside, there can be a bit of romance if smaller clubs can work their way up to the top tier, particular if they are from smaller towns (such as Morwell did during the NSL). If Cooma Tigers or Maitland FC made it to the top flight for a season or two it would be an amazing story.

I'm struggling to understand your point, perhaps you need to rephrase? Take Victoria for example, all Football Victoria affiliated leagues have already got pro/rel throughout their system, so what harm can adding one more tier to the top of that system do? Are we really going to throw an NSD out just in case a Victorian State League Division 5 South accidentally promotes themselves 8 or 9 times and finds themselves in the A-Leauge? I'm just having a little trouble comprehending what the downside you're seeing on this one is.

I think the remedy for the problem I think you're positing would simply be to allow clubs to pass on promotion should they earn it but not want it.

“ Östersunds Fotbollsklubb, commonly known simply as Östersunds FK, Östersund (Swedish pronunciation: [œstɛˈʂɵnːd]) or (especially locally) ÖFK, is a Swedish professional football club located in Östersund, Sweden and since 2016 play in the Swedish first tier, Allsvenskan. The club was formed in 1996 as a merger of several Östersund clubs. The club is affiliated to the Jämtland-Härjedalens Fotbollförbund[2] and play their home games at Jämtkraft Arena.

Season	Level	Division	Section	Position	Movements
1997	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	7th
1998	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	2nd	Promotion Playoffs
1999	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	1st	Promotion Playoffs
2000	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	5th
2001	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	3rd
2002	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	5th
2003	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	2nd
2004	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	4th
2005	Tier 3	Division 2	Norrland	2nd	Promoted
2006[a]	Tier 3	Division 1	Norra	11th
2007	Tier 3	Division 1	Norra	11th
2008	Tier 3	Division 1	Norra	10th
2009	Tier 3	Division 1	Norra	11th
2010	Tier 3	Division 1	Norra	13th	Relegated
2011	Tier 4	Division 2	Norrland	1st	Promoted
2012	Tier 3	Division 1	Norra	1st	Promoted
2013	Tier 2	Superettan		10th
2014	Tier 2	Superettan		5th
2015	Tier 2	Superettan		2nd	Promoted
2016	Tier 1	Allsvenskan		8th
2017	Tier 1	Allsvenskan		5th
2018	Tier 1	Allsvenskan		6th
2019	Tier 1	Allsvenskan		12th

Norrland doesn’t have as many divisions as other regions.

ÖFK got to Europe in 2018 via cup, knocked out Gala and PAOK In qualifying, drew with Bilbao and beat Herta in group stage. They got knocked out for Arsenal in r32. They beat them 2-1 at home first leg.

Imagine the possibilities if Australian teams could play fourth tier and then have that experience within a few years. 

Not only for players but managers also

2010–2018 Östersund
2018–2019 Swansea City
2019– Brighton & Hove Albion

Managing Swedish fourth tier and EPL within a decade, awesome. I wish we had those opportunities for our own talent.

Sweden 
1) 1 league
2) 1
3) 2
4) 6 
5) 16

They most likely took the highest teams position on merger. Into one of the 6 national division 4 leagues.

I reckon it would be a very rare circumstance that you'd have a club not interested in playing in the elite level, winning promotion to it.
As a general rule, there will always be clubs with ambition, and they will work towards winning promotion to the highest level possible.
Rest assured, that if a club wants to remain a pissant amateur club, then they will remain one.

In my ideal pyramid, you would have something similar:

1: A-League
2: Second Division
3: Third Division (2 leagues): divided north/south (each would probably have a sizable number of Sydney/Melbourne clubs respectively, which would help to keep travel costs down for this tier): play-off for promotion to 2nd div.
4: NPL (8 leagues): NSW, QLD, NNSW, ACT (play-off for promotion to 3rd div north); VIC, SA, WA, TAS (play-off for promotion to 3rd div south).
5 and lower: state league lower divisions, potentially with a Victorian style zonal system in the lower reaches.

I think AAFC will want 2-4-5 initially. 3 can be added later on. 

It’s hard to know what is considered fair in such a set up. Is one group stronger than they other is div 3. Should the winners of both groups be promoted?
Should the winners have a playoff for automatic promotion?
i imagine if you had 14 or 16 div 2 you can have 2 relegated and 1 to a play off. 

There are a million different ways it could be done. I would like a Nth v Sth promotion playoff for winners of div 3. Winner goes up.
Loser goes back to playoffs. Team in div 2 replaces Winning team then do n1 v s4, n2 v s3 etc until 1 team is left. This model would be a long way off as it requires many more games. An issue is making the playoffs large enough.

Easiest way is top from each div 3 goes up and 2nd places teams play each other then div 2 playoff team. That would mean many meaningless games towards the end of the season depending on how the table looks both end but it is the cheapest.

Yeah, it would be a long term goal (say 10-15 years), not something that would be implemented immediately. The reason for that structure is that even with a second division, you still need to bridge the gap between the eight leagues of the NPL and the lowest nationwide tier somehow, and I think a north/south conference division does this well. Whether that would come in first and then a nationwide second division later, or the other way around, either way would be fine.

There are a bunch of different ways to do play-offs, there's even the Brazilian system (for Serie D) that James Johnson evoked. My preference would be to keep each division small-ish (12 teams playing 33 rounds in the top divisions; 10/14 teams playing 27/26 rounds at NPL level and lower), and just have one up/one down pro-rel, with automatic relegation for the last-placed team and play-offs for the promotion spot. Intra-conference play-offs (i.e. the finals series as it exists now) would determine each conference's representative, and then there would be inter-conference play-offs (home-and-away over two legs) to decide who goes up.

Occasionally you would have a situation where the relegated team would be in a different conference to the promoted team, in which case you would either realign the conferences or promote/relegate an extra team to make up the numbers. 

I think you could be more optimistic than 10-15 years. Maybe 3,4,5 years. If it is cheap and affordable.

As for realignment, if you had a div 2 and nth south div3 and 3 from one went down into same conference  imo you relegate more teams from that conference to league 4. Maybe have a playoff rule for the top relegation zone team. 

Just have the rule written in from the start and every club agrees on it.

it would create a secondary relegation zone and make games more meaningful.

90% of clubs in Sydney are in your "pissant" category.  They play in the District Association competitions with no opportunity for (and no interest in) promotion.  They are the clubs that have introduced about 50% of the Socceroos to the game and taught them and many hundreds of thousands of others to love the game and without them football in Australia would be significantly worse off.  You say they are pissant clubs, I say they and others like them around the country are the heart of the game in Australia.

Getting a NSD off the ground is a hard enough task to get up and running and keep it going, let alone thinking 5 years could see a NTD in place.

Nothing comes cheap, and expecting there to be significant travel, logistics and general operational costs to come cheap for a national competition, let alone scaling up player payments, is likely going to lead to disappointment.

Youd want a healthy number of the teams that are keen to join the NSD to exist at the state level, so that there is an apepitite for a promotion battle from the state to national level. Otherwise we will end up with another closed tier. So at this stage, I think there is only enough interest for one new tier.

I'd like to see the eight state champions play off for promotion to the NSD like this:
1) Lottery selection of two groups of four.
2) Each team to play the other three in their group in a single leg
3) Top placed team in group one meets runner up of group two home and away; while top of group two meets runner up of group one home and away.
4) Two winners promoted to NSD.

On the Shim Spider and Moore podcast this week, both Spider and Moore were predicting that the NSD would be fast tracked to start next year rather than in 2022. Probably just wishful thinking on their part, but it would be nice if it was true.

Far too optimistic I would suspect.

@heart 
i won’t  copy your post but I believe we would see a major trend of migration of players to Syd and Mel. Clubs in a potential div 3 will be a shopfront for higher divisions as I suspect over time the majority of div 2 will be Syd and Mel based.

That would minimize costs in div 2 and 3 in regards to travel.

It makes no difference, we just need to get it started. You just need to work on the mechanism. The teams over time will sort itself out. That's how the pyramid works. If this is running like I expect then in 10-15 years you are going to get a very dynamic pyramid. The cream will rise to the top and clubs will be exactly where they deserve to be. 

I love the optimism, but it’s going to be hard enough to sustain the second tier, just as it has been in the rollercoaster that is the A-League.

i just struggle to see where the money is going to come from to sustain anything more than what we have now, as broadcasters, sponsors and fans close their wallets as we go through some turbulent times over the next couple of years at least.

If Sydney and Melbourne are expected to carry the vast majority of the 3 tier structure would need:

3 x 12 teams minimum = 36 clubs
60% Sydney and Melbourne = 22 clubs
Current A-League Sydney and Melbourne = 6 clubs (7 including CCM as Greater Sydney)

Therefore, it would need an additional 15/16 clubs to be added from those markets combined to get to get to that level. Are there really likely to be 8 clubs in each market to not only join, but to be able to sustain it? 

I agree.

Its a little like nightclubs or restaurants - there will be 1 or 2 top ones in BNE, ADL, PER but the best will be in SYD and MEL.
Even the second tier in SYD and MEL will be on par with other capitals or a bit below but definitely better than the second tier in BNE, ADL and PER.

Time will sort it out but I believe it is inevitable.

Yeah, I think the top 8 or so clubs in the Vic and NSW NPLs are capable of making the step up to a 2nd or 3rd division. That would be something like: Syd Utd, Syd Olympic, APIA, Marconi, Blacktown, Manly, Sutherland and Rockdale in Sydney and South Melb, Melb Knights, Heidelberg, Avondale, Hume City, Bentleigh, Green Gully and the Team XI bid in Melbourne.

Then add 2-3 clubs each from Brisbane (Strikers, City, Ipswich), Perth (Perth SC, Floreat Athena, ECU Joondalup) and Adelaide (Adelaide City, West Adelaide), and regional clubs from Canberra, Wollongong, Hobart, Gold Coast, Townsville, Sunshine Coast, Geelong, Darwin and maybe Auckland and Christchurch (travel costs permitting) and you have a decent number of sides that could populate the lower divisions of a national pyramid.

Honestly, let’s walk before we run here sorry.