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Rimbaud
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
There is already a plan/model in place. It's from FIFA, but I keep forgetting, we are unique. Although Pro/rel is found all around the world.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
There is already a plan/model in place. It's from FIFA, but I keep forgetting, we are unique. Although Pro/rel is found all around the world. Mostly, but with a lot of different models. For example, there are many instances where consistent P&R rules apply between a first and second division, but there is no automatic P&R below that, or they might apply between the top 3 tiers, but don't apply between the 3rd and 4th tier, or stop applying at the professional level, etc, etc. Also, I'm aware that the MLS as an Eastern and Western conference, but I'm not sure there is any automatic P&R between this top tier and the tier below. I'm not sure if the K-League has your typical P&R either.
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Waz
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@ pippinu
MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol)
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pippinu
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+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) I would not deny that that is the case, I'm merely pointing out to our good friend that things are not uniform across the football world - you get variations of some core principles. More knowledgeable people than I will be able to point to the various Apertura/Clausura systems operating in at least one South American country, to play-off systems such as that, for example, in the Eredivisie, etc, etc.
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RBBAnonymous
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+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel.
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Rimbaud
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Yep and every other country in the world has pro/rel. Including Korea, who have direct promotion for top div2 team and then promotion play offs between teams 2nd-4th on div2 table. Which incidentally goes above and beyond giving opportunities to more clubs, really.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
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+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?)
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Waz
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@ RBB
correct, there's a few subtleties in the US though - the first was the progress the game was making with expansion and things like stadiums. Easier to argue we're unique when you're actually doing something lol.
Second was there wasn't a single League below the MLS there were two both competing with each other and both claiming to be a competitor to MLS. I think that's been fixed but lessons there for the NPL clubs.
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RBBAnonymous
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+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
Posts: 5.7K,
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+x+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now. The disaster is FIFA taking action - when they do, they don't do things by halves.
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now. The disaster is FIFA taking action - when they do, they don't do things by halves. Sorry you are mistaken. The disaster here is the FFA not taking action. They have had every opportunity to do so. They know the consequences.
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TheSelectFew
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Posts: 30K,
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+x+x+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now. The disaster is FIFA taking action - when they do, they don't do things by halves. They FFA had a chance to avoid this. They had years. They haven't. Its now incompetent v corrupt.
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