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mouflonrouge
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I'm no Catholic so I don't really have a horse in this race. But, I do see the anti Christian Godless hordes just ganging up against what they thought would be "an easy kill" against Christianity as a whole.
There is a lot of virtue signalling here - you know, the look at me being outraged at alleged Sexual Abuse.
I will be clear about my stance. I do not believe Cardinal Pell committed any Sex Abuse crimes against anyone. In other words, I believe he is 100% innocent.
At best, he may be guilty of inaction at various times as Bishop in Australia some decades in the past.
I think the mass hysterical Godless Masses are about to get an arse kicking. He came to Australia to defend his name and his legacy - a strong legacy of Christianity and helping people and families. A legacy the Godless hordes do not have and never will have. Many of the Godless hordes never thought they would see the day, but Cardinal Pell has proven himself to be a lot more astute and brave than they are and he does have something to defend and protect. So he is in Australia, to fight, to defend his legacy and himself. Clear indication that as far as he is concerned, he is innocent and will fight to protect his innocence.
Now all the accusers and detractors will have to put up or shut up in a Court of Law. Let's hear about all the alleged instances of "Sexual Abuse" and let's take a look at and scrutinise the evidence rather than conduct a "Trial by Media" and a war against Christianity as a whole! :)
God Bless cardinal Pell. I will be praying for you Good Man.
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paulbagzFC
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Bundoora B
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he's a pedo apologist at best. and so are you if you think defending pedo's helps your religion.
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mouflonrouge
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+xI am also sure that you don't have any of the facts either. You just he's a pedo apologist at best. and so are you if you think defending pedo's helps your religion. That's defamatory. My stance against Pedophilia is harder than yours. But I am not a vigilante. I believe in due process. Cardinal Pell has come to Australia to defend his name and to be a part of this due process. Due process is probably what he applied when he held the Highest Catholic Office in Australia. I will leave the Courts to decide on that one because I don't have any of the facts. I am pretty sure you don't have any of the facts either. You just fire from the hip, in a hysterical and unhinged manner. Labeling me as pedo apologist is all you can do. Sad really! What I strongly do believe, is that pell is an innocent man and has had to deal with a lot of vitriol being flung his way by the hysterical and unhinged Godless masses.
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Scotch&Coke
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Had a few beers mate?
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mouflonrouge
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marconi101
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What does God think? GET GOD ON THE PHONE
He was a man of specific quirks. He believed that all meals should be earned through physical effort. He also contended, zealously like a drunk with a political point, that the third dimension would not be possible if it werent for the existence of water.
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mouflonrouge
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+xWhat does God think? GET GOD ON THE PHONE George Pell is another Pontius Pilot victim (if you look at it, the story is the same) and hence he is walking in the same footsteps as JC with head held up high and with such pride and conviction. Humankind has come full circle and soon, Christians will be the leppers and scorn of a Godless society but that is His method of sorting the Chaff from the Wheat. All we need now is the feeding of Christians to hungry Lions at half time at AFL matches to keep families and children amused whilst the eat their meat pie.
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mcjules
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Not sure why we need another George Pell thread when there's a perfectly decent long standing one. I'll lock it in an hour unless there are reasoned objections.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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mouflonrouge
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+xNot sure why we need another George Pell thread when there's a perfectly decent long standing one. I'll lock it in an hour unless there are reasoned objections. I would like to make a reasoned objection. The other thread was about Cardinal Pell not returning home to face the music and using his medical condition as an excuse for not returning. The subject of this thread is something entirely different. It is about my general opinion that there seems to be a lot of vitriolic abuse flung towards the Catholic Church today. Tomorrow it will be someone else's turn. I am not at all against the Catholic Church facing the music if there is evidence that some people are victims of Sexual Abuse. However, this debate has become extremely irrational and toxic and the Cardinal has had to endure an unfair "Trial by Media" He has also return to Australia to clear his name. Something I can only respect him for. It would be a terrible shame if this thread is closed, especially since the other thread was mocking Cardinal Pell with a high degree of unfairness. My view seems contrarian to many here, but Cardinal Pell has out trumped that view by coming to Australia. This is truly amazing. And good luck to the fellow. I am so pleased he has come to Australia because I want to get to the bottom of all the hyperbole and allegations and to see what is true and what is not.
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paulbagzFC
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mcjules
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Yes but he makes a reasonable point about the validity of the thread staying open. The topic itself is pretty meh however it's pretty funny when a virtue signaller accuses others of virtue signalling.
Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here
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mouflonrouge
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+xYes but he makes a reasonable point about the validity of the thread staying open. The topic itself is pretty meh however it's pretty funny when a virtue signaller accuses others of virtue signalling. Well thank you for keeping the thread open. But I wish to clarify. There is no virtue signalling from my end. If George Pell is guilty, then let him fall on his sword. I am open to the possibility and would want nothing less if he is in fact guilty. The crimes being alleged are appalling, and I wouldn't want anyone to get away with committing such perverted acts. And as I said, I have no emotional connection with Catholicism at all. Now, I do not believe he is guilty. He is certainly not behaving like a guilty man. He has come to face the music after all, and he is adamant about clearing his name. That is truly quite amazing. If he was guilty, then I doubt he would have done that. In addition, I do not believe a senior member of the Catholic Church would cover up and protect other clergy who have committed sinister perverted crimes against other individuals. This is however the only way we will get to the truth. The matters will be going to trial and every bit of evidence will be dissected with a sharp scapel. The Media frenzy ends here and now we will learn the facts. :)
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mouflonrouge
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Just scening the Mass medfia, it seems difficult to find a report that is well balanced. George Pell is after all, the most hated man in Australia according to some, so don't qworry about any evidence. This has turned out to be a "witch hunt". I just can't believe that our society has become so angry and vitriolic in the process. The anger and hatred is palpable. We never use to be like that but things are getting out of hand. I have however found a nice piece from the Herald Sun: George Pell is the most hated man in Australia, if the media is to be believed. He has been called "scum", a "coward", "sociopathic" and a protector of pedophile priests. The royal commission into child sex abuse in institutions virtually called him a liar to his face last week. It called excuses "implausible " - the excuses that he knew nothing of the pedophile priests around him and was lied to by the bosses and colleagues who protected them. But just as implausible, it seems to me, is that George Pell - the third most senior Catholic in the world - would knowingly turn a blind eye while his colleagues raped children, and that he would then tell lie after lie about it over four days in the witness box last week. Moreover, he would do all this without the royal commission being able to discover a single proof of it. And to add to that implausibility, Pell would be party to this ghastly cover up, yet would later create the first church fund to compensate victims, reform church procedures to ensure pedophile priests could never flourish in the Australian church, and then move to the Vatican to clean up astonishing financial corruption reaching to almost the very top. So which of these two improbable scenarios should you believe? Pell the monster or Pell the innocent and reformer? Let me tell you what I have finally concluded after extensive investigation and sometime agonising reflection. I have heard Pell give 19 hours of evidence under hostile cross examination. I've read extensively the case against him put by prominent media figures. I've spoken to five victims. I have met Pell four times in the past, albeit never for long. I have read some of his sermons. I've spoken to friends and colleagues of his. Last week I spoke to Pell for about six hours in Rome, including one hour before the Sky News camerasone hour before the Sky News cameras, during which I put to him every question that was bothering me. On Friday I even sat in on a private meeting at the Vatican between Pell and priests from America and Australia as he spoke very frankly about corruption in his church. Importantly, I have questioned my own predisposition to give Pell the benefit of the doubt, and last week even wrote a piece damning his recordwrote a piece damning his record after he made a shocking comment in the witness box - a comment I and most other journalists misinterpreted as meaning he'd had no interest in abused children. I felt seduced by the media praise when I did this, and know I would have been hailed as a hero if I'd kept kicking him, rather than apologising after I rechecked the transcript and realised my mistakeapologising after I rechecked the transcript and realised my mistake. But in the end, I had to follow the evidence and make a judgement of the man I came to know pretty well. And it is this: George Pell is innocent. Pell was not part of a cover-up of pedophile priests. He is not a "coward". He is not "scum". He is not as emotionless as he seems. Moreover, I find it almost impossible to believe Victoria Police is now taking seriously claims that Pell himself abused between five and 10 boys, not one of whom has come forward to the royal commission. And, yes, he is the victim of a witch hunt. It is true that he was blind as a priest in Ballarat to tiny warning signs and at times showed a lack of initiative in chasing up vague complaints. But how many more people were just as guilty, or far more? The evidence to the royal commission shows that even parents of those hundreds of victims did not believe their own children, or did not know they'd been abused or did not go to the police. Even when the son of a policeman was molested by the worst pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale, no charges were laid. None of the policemen in three towns where Ridsdale molested children knew of the pedophilia or took action. None of the drinkers of the Apollo Bay pub - who the royal commission said knew Ridsdale molested children - went to the police. The Solicitor General of Victoria decline to prosecute another pedophile priest. None of the parents of children who swam naked in a river with one priest insisted on his sacking. Virtually no country journalists knew of the pedophile priests in their towns or reported it. So why is it Pell, of all these people, who has been grilled for such marathon lengths of time - when he was neither a perpetrator nor a proven protector of pedophiles? You may be still convinced Pell did cover up and is now lying about it. But test yourself, to make sure you are not being unjust to an individual in your fury at his church. Watch my interview with George Pell.Watch my interview with George Pell. Is this the monster you mean? UPDATE Apologies. I had the wrong link to the interview. Watch it herehere. I blame jet lag.
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localstar
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Rent an Anti-Papist mob....no worries! Plenty of people in Australia ready to jump on that bandwagon..
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mouflonrouge
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+xRent an Anti-Papist mob....no worries! Plenty of people in Australia ready to jump on that bandwagon.. Hit the nail. I always considered all the conjecture to be from a "Rent a Crowd" Apparently, we mustn't send any Christmas cards either in case we offend someone.
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Kamaryn
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I'm no fan of the Roman Catholic church or Pell, (I am a Christian though) yet I am extremely skeptical that he did anything. The amount of false allegations that have come forward about him and proven wrong have made me give him even more benefit of the doubt (as if he wasn't entitled to it already). Furthermore, he was the first Australian Catholic to start doing something about child abuse. It might not have been enough in the eyes of many, but he just doesn't seem to be in the cover-up category, let alone the perpetrator one.
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Muz
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One more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+xOne more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another. But there is evil. Lot's of it. In our society is also evil. Take the treatment of Cardinal Pell for instance. That was pure evil too, because everyone thought it was ok to trample on this man';s human rights. Well sorry, but you can't make it up as you go along.
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sokorny
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+x+xOne more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another. But there is evil. Lot's of it. In our society is also evil. Take the treatment of Cardinal Pell for instance. That was pure evil too, because everyone thought it was ok to trample on this man';s human rights. Well sorry, but you can't make it up as you go along. I think when he turned a blind eye to the acts of those under his management he lost most of his credit ... (well at least in the eyes of everyone but the church)
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+xOne more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another. But there is evil. Lot's of it. In our society is also evil. Take the treatment of Cardinal Pell for instance. That was pure evil too, because everyone thought it was ok to trample on this man';s human rights. Well sorry, but you can't make it up as you go along. I think when he turned a blind eye to the acts of those under his management he lost most of his credit ... (well at least in the eyes of everyone but the church) We will see about that. He as far as I know, was also the first to actually act wherever he could whenever he became aware of concrete evidence of abuse. Might no be enough for some, but in some ways he could be one of the pioneers of change. This will all come out in the wash and can't comment till then because I do not know enough of the facts yet.
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433
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If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy?
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switters
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+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? Its the same old 'the lord works in mysterious ways' lol
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switters
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edit
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Kamaryn
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+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me.
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Muz
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+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/ I read your post and I read the comic strip. (I appreciate your candour and non evangelzing style. Unlike the other peanut.) 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would have you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality) say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 15K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago let alone a thousand.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. Of course I believe morality is changing. Not for the better either as we have seen in the last 20 odd years. We are regressing big time. There is much less love, cohesion, and unity today - and don't forget about that suicide rate you keep avoiding. that is a big pandemic and skeleton in the closet.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. Yes I've heard you are a type of 'ice cream' I'm just wondering what particular 'flavour'. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Iconostasis.aspx
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above. I believe so and to the best of my ability. You asked if I was born into Islam I would be different. Well I am glad I wasn't. I consider myself very blessed to be a part of my culture like the Jews are a part of their culture and I love them because we too can identify with genocide and a holocaust of our own at the hands of Islam. So as you might expect, wounds are very raw about Islam, at least for my people.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above. I believe so and to the best of my ability. You asked if I was born into Islam I would be different. Well I am glad I wasn't. I consider myself very blessed to be a part of my culture like the Jews are a part of their culture and I love them because we too can identify with genocide and a holocaust of our own at the hands of Islam. So as you might expect, wounds are very raw about Islam, at least for my people. So you still won't answer the question because you know, in your heart of hearts, and in your intellectual capacity, that you would not be the religion you are had you not been born into it. This is proof that religion is a cultural, societal inherited mindset. In other words you have been brainwashed. You know, deep down, that your religiosity has been imposed upon you. Your young feeble (at the time) impressionable mind never stood a chance. If anyone is shackled by an imposed belief system it is you. Your mind cannot and will not consider a world where your religion is simply a cultural inheritance inflicted on a blank slate.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. Very good. Now we can get down to brass tacks. Before that though you haven't answered the question above. I believe so and to the best of my ability. You asked if I was born into Islam I would be different. Well I am glad I wasn't. I consider myself very blessed to be a part of my culture like the Jews are a part of their culture and I love them because we too can identify with genocide and a holocaust of our own at the hands of Islam. So as you might expect, wounds are very raw about Islam, at least for my people. So you still won't answer the question because you know, in your heart of hearts, and in your intellectual capacity, that you would not be the religion you are had you not been born into it. This is proof that religion is a cultural, societal inherited mindset. In other words you have been brainwashed. You know, deep down, that your religiosity has been imposed upon you. Your young feeble (at the time) impressionable mind never stood a chance. If anyone is shackled by an imposed belief system it is you. Your mind cannot and will not consider a world where your religion is simply a cultural inheritance inflicted on a blank slate. Delete
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And Everyone Blamed Clive
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Iconostasis.aspx Is that the left or right leg ?
Winner of Official 442 Comment of the day Award - 10th April 2017
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Iconostasis.aspx Is that the left or right leg ? We cross with the right hand. When we start walking, we start with the right as well. Just like in the military.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. Of course I believe morality is changing. Not for the better either as we have seen in the last 20 odd years. We are regressing big time. There is much less love, cohesion, and unity today. You have simply fallen into the age old trap of believing the next generation to be bereft of morals and wayward. I am really surprised a man with your appreciate for history and culture can't see that. It also makes me sad knowing i am destined to fall into that trap and in many ways am already half way there.
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Muz
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Posts: 15K,
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+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2 Yes we have seen the results of your so called "ethics". It may be the case in your benchmarks in your society, but you know nothing about my society, it's culture or beliefs. The mere fact that we don't neck ourselves in the garden shed, and have better mental wellness than your society, is an indication of our ethics and social cohesion which you do not have.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2 Yes we have seen the results of your so called "ethics". It may be the case in your benchmarks in your society, but you know nothing about my society, it's culture or beliefs. The mere fact that we don't neck ourselves in the garden shed, and have better mental wellness than your society, is an indication of our ethics and social cohesion which you do not have. Or that brainwashed lunatics are horrified at the thought, since suicide is a 'sin', of burning in eternal damnation. That might have something to do with it to.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2 Yes we have seen the results of your so called "ethics". It may be the case in your benchmarks in your society, but you know nothing about my society, it's culture or beliefs. The mere fact that we don't neck ourselves in the garden shed, and have better mental wellness than your society, is an indication of our ethics and social cohesion which you do not have. Or that brainwashed lunatics are horrified at the thought, since suicide is a 'sin', of burning in eternal damnation. That might have something to do with it to. No one is ever brainwashed into our religion. This is another myth. All of us have what is called in the Bible according to JC's words, FREE WILL. Being baptized is only the first step. What happens after that is that one must try to conduct themselves in moral ways. If you don't, well then there are repercussions.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. No that is worth something. Having an interest is a start and well done. And you probably do know more than many Church goers. Going to church isn't about knowing everything there is to know though. I am sure God doesn't care about that. What is important is the attempt and the trying to improve yourself.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. No that is worth something. Having an interest is a start and well done. And you probably do know more than many Church goers. Going to church isn't about knowing everything there is to know though. I am sure God doesn't care about that. What is important is the attempt and the trying to improve yourself. Please respond to my post. Please admit that what you wrote regarding misery etc was just subject nonsense. I can accept you believe in many of the things you say but i won't stand for bullshit masked as fact.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. For what it's worth I'm 'confirmed' also. (Or was.) I formally renounced my Catholicism decades ago.
Member since 2008.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise Anyway I've wasted enough time. Evangelically blinded adherents are impossible to converse with. You may as well argue with a creationist. Edit: I realise my arguments will never sway him. Most of my posts are aimed at those that question their beliefs or are seeking a more rigorous, intellectual analysis of the who, whys and what's of why they believe something.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise Anyway I've wasted enough time. Evangelically blinded adherents are impossible to converse with. You may as well argue with a creationist. We are not evangelicals either. You are basically very ignorant and know nothing about Orthodoxy. We are not new age Christians. Christianity isn't a fashion accessory for us or a Rock N Roll show.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise Anyway I've wasted enough time. Evangelically blinded adherents are impossible to converse with. You may as well argue with a creationist. The same can be said about someone with a closed mind such as yourself. Might as well argue with a tree.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion?
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing. If I was born into Islam, then it's off to the garden shed for me. Answer his question. Why can't you? It's truly fascinating.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing. If I was born into Islam, then it's off to the garden shed for me. Answer his question. Why can't you? It's truly fascinating. I did. I said I would quite happily slot into Judaism. Circumcision might be painful though.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing. If I was born into Islam, then it's off to the garden shed for me. Answer his question. Why can't you? It's truly fascinating. I did. I said I would quite happily slot into Judaism. Circumcision might be painful though. The fact you truly think you answered his questions (or you know you didn't but won't admit it which is worse) tells me all I need to know to be honest.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing. If I was born into Islam, then it's off to the garden shed for me. Answer his question. Why can't you? It's truly fascinating. I did. I said I would quite happily slot into Judaism. Circumcision might be painful though. The fact you truly think you answered his questions (or you know you didn't but won't admit it which is worse) tells me all I need to know to be honest. Yes he did. He asked me what would be the case if I was born into another culture, and I divulged my feelings about the topic. I would clearly have little problem.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn The fact he won't answer my question is all the information you need to see his intellectual honesty is in tatters. I did answer your question. I am an Orthodox Christian. There are over 300 million of us. And we are the oldest form of Christianity on the planet. Much older than Catholicism by about 350 years. We are much older than Islam too. Hence, we are probably the purist form of Christianity on the planet. Hence our name as the one and only Apostolic and Catholic Orthodox Church. Playing this game of hypotheticals doesn't change this fact. Not an answer. Here it is again. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? I wouldn't have a problem being born into Judaism. The moral codes are thus the exact same as ours pretty much, and so are their family units and cohesiveness, and they too are rich in culture and very nurturing. If I was born into Islam, then it's off to the garden shed for me. Answer his question. Why can't you? It's truly fascinating. I did. I said I would quite happily slot into Judaism. Circumcision might be painful though. The fact you truly think you answered his questions (or you know you didn't but won't admit it which is worse) tells me all I need to know to be honest. He asked me what would be the case if I was born into another culture, and I divulged my feelings about the topic. Feelings trump facts. You must want to slap yourself you damned leftie. vaya con dios
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. A lot of talk, but no substance. There is no community. You don't have a community. My church isn't window dressing. It tackles the issues society doesn't know how to tackle.
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. There is no community. You don't have a community. Don't I? aha fair enough. So again, Is misery at an all time high and how do you measure the difference in misery levels between Perth 2017 and Judea 527BC? Is there more bullying in the workplace now or is it reported more? Is there more homelessness now in Adelaide or in the holy land now or at any point in the godliness of history? Is the rate of divorce being higher now at least in some part due to the fact in the past a man could take lovers and smack his wife into submission and if she left she would be shunned by her "community"? Is there more mental illness now than in the past or is it mis/over/wrongly diagnosed now and just more labels attached to the various forms of the human condition? Are kids now more anxious because of less god or more mass media and social media (both of which sit apart/alongside from religion)? Are these subjective statements by you or fact? I want to give you a chance
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. There is no community. You don't have a community. Don't I? aha fair enough. So again, Is misery at an all time high and how do you measure the difference in misery levels between Perth 2017 and Judea 527BC? Is there more bullying in the workplace now or is it reported more? Is there more homelessness now in Adelaide or in the holy land now or at any point in the godliness of history? Is the rate of divorce being higher now at least in some part due to the fact in the past a man could take lovers and smack his wife into submission and if she left she would be shunned by her "community"? Is there more mental illness now than in the past or is it mis/over/wrongly diagnosed now and just more labels attached to the various forms of the human condition? Are kids now more anxious because of less god or more mass media and social media (both of which sit apart/alongside from religion)? Are these subjective statements by you or fact? I want to give you a chance Yes there is more bullying now. And most certainly, there is more mental illness than ever before. In the old days, it was eliminated so you have to ask WHY? What has changed? Family structure has changed. Divorce rates have changed. Family Law court has changed denying fathers access to their children. Many things have changed and you reap what you sow,
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. There is no community. You don't have a community. Don't I? aha fair enough. So again, Is misery at an all time high and how do you measure the difference in misery levels between Perth 2017 and Judea 527BC? Is there more bullying in the workplace now or is it reported more? Is there more homelessness now in Adelaide or in the holy land now or at any point in the godliness of history? Is the rate of divorce being higher now at least in some part due to the fact in the past a man could take lovers and smack his wife into submission and if she left she would be shunned by her "community"? Is there more mental illness now than in the past or is it mis/over/wrongly diagnosed now and just more labels attached to the various forms of the human condition? Are kids now more anxious because of less god or more mass media and social media (both of which sit apart/alongside from religion)? Are these subjective statements by you or fact? I want to give you a chance And most certainly, there is more mental illness than ever before. In the old days, it was eliminated
Okaaaaaay The first half of your statement is possibly true, I concede. But as for the second sentence, all I can say is "have a good day".
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. There is no community. You don't have a community. Don't I? aha fair enough. So again, Is misery at an all time high and how do you measure the difference in misery levels between Perth 2017 and Judea 527BC? Is there more bullying in the workplace now or is it reported more? Is there more homelessness now in Adelaide or in the holy land now or at any point in the godliness of history? Is the rate of divorce being higher now at least in some part due to the fact in the past a man could take lovers and smack his wife into submission and if she left she would be shunned by her "community"? Is there more mental illness now than in the past or is it mis/over/wrongly diagnosed now and just more labels attached to the various forms of the human condition? Are kids now more anxious because of less god or more mass media and social media (both of which sit apart/alongside from religion)? Are these subjective statements by you or fact? I want to give you a chance And most certainly, there is more mental illness than ever before. In the old days, it was eliminated
Okaaaaaay The first half of your statement is possibly true, I concede. But as for the second sentence, all I can say is "have a good day". OK but you talk as if you have the statistics. Interesting.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. I know. Its disappointing because we could at least have an interesting conversation otherwise So I guess what you posted earlier isn't true. It's up to you. What I posted is 100% true and so is the fact that it is disappointing you refuse to reply to questions and admit that much of what you said in the post i first responded to was subjective nonsense. A conversation can't be had with someone who blocks their ears when it is not their turn It's not subjective nonsense at all. You are foolish to be so dismissive of my religion and my culture. I am not trying to convert you to anything, or convince you of anything, but calling it subjective is highly offensive especially when you know very little and haven't even looked at it very deeply. Can you read? I have never once said your religion is anything. You made absurd comments about today's godless society "meaning misery is at unprecedented levels". THAT is what i called a bullshit subjective statement amongst the others you made regarding homelessness, bullying and divorce. OH no worries. But yes, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you about the merits and moral evolution of today's society. All we got today is a lot of window dressing which doesn't address any of the issues of suicide. mental illness, divorces, broken families, and the disintegration of community. There is no community. You don't have a community. Don't I? aha fair enough. So again, Is misery at an all time high and how do you measure the difference in misery levels between Perth 2017 and Judea 527BC? Is there more bullying in the workplace now or is it reported more? Is there more homelessness now in Adelaide or in the holy land now or at any point in the godliness of history? Is the rate of divorce being higher now at least in some part due to the fact in the past a man could take lovers and smack his wife into submission and if she left she would be shunned by her "community"? Is there more mental illness now than in the past or is it mis/over/wrongly diagnosed now and just more labels attached to the various forms of the human condition? Are kids now more anxious because of less god or more mass media and social media (both of which sit apart/alongside from religion)? Are these subjective statements by you or fact? I want to give you a chance And most certainly, there is more mental illness than ever before. In the old days, it was eliminated
Okaaaaaay The first half of your statement is possibly true, I concede. But as for the second sentence, all I can say is "have a good day". You complain about Trump, but it is the sad disintegration of society and community which will bring more Trumps to the fore. You reap what you sow. Discontent isn't possible in a cohesive society, and we are becoming less cohesive and losing our sense of community. Most people don't know their neighbours. I was gobsmacked at this. It is this that brought Hitler to power as well.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. For what it's worth I'm 'confirmed' also. (Or was.) I formally renounced my Catholicism decades ago. There is nothing subjective about it. It is actually historical fact. I feel very sad for you though. And my offer still stands. What you do with the information afterwards is up to you because we do not believe in slamming things down people's throats. We believe in FREE WILL as mentioned in the Bible.
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy. That's his schtick. He won't and can't. It's just unprovable, subjective waffle. For what it's worth I'm 'confirmed' also. (Or was.) I formally renounced my Catholicism decades ago. There is nothing subjective about it. He was replying to my chat with you and your statements regarding misery, bullying etc etc etc
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Kamaryn
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+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/ I read your post and I read the comic strip. (I appreciate your candour and non evangelzing style. Unlike the other peanut.) 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would have you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality) say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Thanks for the honest reply. I appreciate an intellectually honest atheist. I would argue such a view does mean you can't really condemn others for their beliefs or behaviours (even the insidious crimes that this conversation started over) - you can say you personally don't agree with them and don't want to live in a society with that, but you'd need to concede this is merely a matter of personal preference. I meet very few atheists though when confronted with great evil who are willing to make such an admission. Anyway, I don't want to join in the debate because the last few pages have proven what I said would happen (i.e. everyone went crazy!). Just for the interest of disclosure, I'm a Sydney Anglican, which is a conservative (theologically, not politically) evangelical denomination and I teach the Bible in a university context as a job. I'm merely pointing this out, because you twice used the word evangelical to describe the more anti-intellectual/anti-science style of Christianity. While I think this is sadly often true of American politics/religion, in the Australian and English contexts it is almost the exact opposite (& so ironically, Sydney Anglicans are often accused of being too intellectual and too pro-science by other Christians - we can't win either way, lol). To answer your question to mouflon about upbringing - I didn't grow up in a Christian home, and would have called myself an atheist/agnostic for most of my life. Most of my family and friends still think I'm an idiot for becoming a Christian, although we are able to disagree and still get along just fine. I became a Christian during my second year of uni. My conversion had nothing to do with my upbringing or societal exposure (although I definitely had better access to Christianity in Australia) - it came as a result of exploring the intellectual arguments and historicity of various world views & making a rational, informed decision. I would of course agree that many believers of all faiths have their view as the result of their upbringing and have never critically analysed what they believe and why. To be honest, most of the atheists I meet at uni would fit in the same category as well & have never actually critically analysed their atheism or read intellectual Christian arguments for belief in Jesus - they just grew up not going to church (or decided it was dumb at around 12), were brought up being told that religion is dumb & had that reinforced by their friends/society. I sadly see very little genuine engagement from the vast majority of society on what is arguably the most important question there is. But ultimately it must be said that either way, none of this has any bearing on the truthfulness or not of any world view. Anyway, gonna leave this chat before I get sucked in. Have a good day guys :)
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Muz
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+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/ I read your post and I read the comic strip. (I appreciate your candour and non evangelzing style. Unlike the other peanut.) 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would have you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality) say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Thanks for the honest reply. I appreciate an intellectually honest atheist. I would argue such a view does mean you can't really condemn others for their beliefs or behaviours (even the insidious crimes that this conversation started over) - you can say you personally don't agree with them and don't want to live in a society with that, but you'd need to concede this is merely a matter of personal preference. I meet very few atheists though when confronted with great evil who are willing to make such an admission. Well that's an argument that will rage on forever but there's loads of literature that will explain why it's more nuanced then simply saying you're free to do whatever you want if you're an atheist. I doubt there'd be many atheists or agnostics that subscribe to that way of thinking at all in any case. Religious people tend to want to tar all atheists with the same brush as having no morals but honestly, try as I might I can't remember the last time I murdered or raped or robbed someone simply because I didn't believe in God. I'm obviously letting my fellow 'moral vacuums' down. Moral relativism is an argument in nth degree-ism. It's not a blueprint for society. Here's some reading of you're interested. http://kidswithoutgod.com/teens/ask/where-do-atheists-get-their-morality/https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/https://www.thoughtco.com/can-godless-atheists-have-moral-values-248089https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_moralityWith regards to your conversion at a later stage in life that's all well and good but is more the exception than the rule. The vast majority of religious people would be born into it not coming at it with an open mind. Very, very few people would investigate, research and try different religions before settling on one.
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Kamaryn
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+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/ I read your post and I read the comic strip. (I appreciate your candour and non evangelzing style. Unlike the other peanut.) 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would have you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality) say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Thanks for the honest reply. I appreciate an intellectually honest atheist. I would argue such a view does mean you can't really condemn others for their beliefs or behaviours (even the insidious crimes that this conversation started over) - you can say you personally don't agree with them and don't want to live in a society with that, but you'd need to concede this is merely a matter of personal preference. I meet very few atheists though when confronted with great evil who are willing to make such an admission. Well that's an argument that will rage on forever but there's loads of literature that will explain why it's more nuanced then simply saying you're free to do whatever you want if you're an atheist. I doubt there'd be many atheists or agnostics that subscribe to that way of thinking at all in any case. Religious people tend to want to tar all atheists with the same brush as having no morals but honestly, try as I might I can't remember the last time I murdered or raped or robbed someone simply because I didn't believe in God. I'm obviously letting my fellow 'moral vacuums' down. Moral relativism is an argument in nth degree-ism. It's not a blueprint for society. Here's some reading of you're interested. http://kidswithoutgod.com/teens/ask/where-do-atheists-get-their-morality/https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/https://www.thoughtco.com/can-godless-atheists-have-moral-values-248089https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_moralityWith regards to your conversion at a later stage in life that's all well and good but is more the exception than the rule. The vast majority of religious people would be born into it not coming at it with an open mind. Very, very few people would investigate, research and try different religions before settling on one. Thanks mate. P.S. Just to make clear, when I say there is no objective morality without God, I'm not saying atheists don't have any morals (and so am not saying I would expect you to go rape or murder because you don't believe in God). I think this is where there is a lot of misunderstanding.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/ I read your post and I read the comic strip. (I appreciate your candour and non evangelzing style. Unlike the other peanut.) 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would have you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality) say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Thanks for the honest reply. I appreciate an intellectually honest atheist. I would argue such a view does mean you can't really condemn others for their beliefs or behaviours (even the insidious crimes that this conversation started over) - you can say you personally don't agree with them and don't want to live in a society with that, but you'd need to concede this is merely a matter of personal preference. I meet very few atheists though when confronted with great evil who are willing to make such an admission. Anyway, I don't want to join in the debate because the last few pages have proven what I said would happen (i.e. everyone went crazy!). Just for the interest of disclosure, I'm a Sydney Anglican, which is a conservative (theologically, not politically) evangelical denomination and I teach the Bible in a university context as a job. I'm merely pointing this out, because you twice used the word evangelical to describe the more anti-intellectual/anti-science style of Christianity. While I think this is sadly often true of American politics/religion, in the Australian and English contexts it is almost the exact opposite (& so ironically, Sydney Anglicans are often accused of being too intellectual and too pro-science by other Christians - we can't win either way, lol). To answer your question to mouflon about upbringing - I didn't grow up in a Christian home, and would have called myself an atheist/agnostic for most of my life. Most of my family and friends still think I'm an idiot for becoming a Christian, although we are able to disagree and still get along just fine. I became a Christian during my second year of uni. My conversion had nothing to do with my upbringing or societal exposure (although I definitely had better access to Christianity in Australia) - it came as a result of exploring the intellectual arguments and historicity of various world views & making a rational, informed decision. I would of course agree that many believers of all faiths have their view as the result of their upbringing and have never critically analysed what they believe and why. To be honest, most of the atheists I meet at uni would fit in the same category as well & have never actually critically analysed their atheism or read intellectual Christian arguments for belief in Jesus - they just grew up not going to church (or decided it was dumb at around 12), were brought up being told that religion is dumb & had that reinforced by their friends/society. I sadly see very little genuine engagement from the vast majority of society on what is arguably the most important question there is. But ultimately it must be said that either way, none of this has any bearing on the truthfulness or not of any world view. Anyway, gonna leave this chat before I get sucked in. Have a good day guys :) Hi how are you? We too are becoming very accepting to a large extent of science. In other words, our religion seems to be changing its doctrines, and we are not so fundamentalist in outlook. For example, evolution seems to be the big one here. It's even taught in our schools whereas other religions probably wouldn't do that. But we are also the scorn of other Christian religions. For example, other Christians equate our iconography and icons as idolatry and as a sin. We have been practising this since pretty much immediately after the crucifixion. I use to be Atheist for about 10 years. Or is it Agnostic? The truth is, I wasn't too sure what I was or what I believed in, but was probably rebelling against the establishment as all teenagers and young adults do. I would however still go to Church out of respect for the family. It's an important factor in our culture. I was never a regular however, nor would I understand much about any scripture or about my religion. It was never force fed upon anyone as some seem to imply. It's about free will. If you are weak today, tomorrow you may be strong and seek to learn. It was the best thing I did, because it's actually very gripping and beautiful. Everything about it is just wonderful. I had an important shift when I went back on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and Sinai. Went and stayed at some Monasteries and gained a spiritual father who knew very well of my lack of faith. So I started to read and learn about it more and more. Then I went on another pilgrimage at Mount Athos in Greece and stayed at 3 monasteries there for about 10 days and lived the monastic life. Experienced a number of things and of course, gradually, I started to find a very deep respect for my faith and I started to believe again. And I witnessed a number of beautiful things, which if I explain here, people will just think I am crazy and some voodoo worshipper or making it up. I think however, people are over estimating the impact of child baptism. I, as are all Orthodox, was baptised into the Orthodox Faith as an infant. It is a deeply conservative and high ritualistic faith. But, that doesn't automatically make you an Orthodox Christian apart from the Baptism paperwork perhaps issued by the Archdiocese. Most people are what you would call quite blaze about it, but probably believe but have little knowledge. Some are perhaps Atheistic or Agnostic like I maybe was. But all who are strict practising Orthodox Christians (like I am now later in life), have studied it and have a thirst for knowledge because it's actually nourishing, very intellectual stuff, high in philosophy and extremely liberating as well as character building. Ours is a very rich religion that is some 2000 years old, and we have changed very little since 2000 years ago. So I am a Christian and have regained my faith and go to Church as often as I can now. I find our chants nourishing and relaxing. It sooths my soul. And I firmly believe in the existence of God but that was the case always. So I was pretty much baptized at birth, grew up to be a respectful Atheist to not offend the family, and then found myself on 2 pilgrimages. I have been on a total of 5 pilgrimages now. I regularly speak with my spiritual father (via Facebook) about my problems and even confess all the shitty stuff I do, and he generally provides my with some verses to read and prayer. And I do love him like my Father. If I lose him, it will be like losing my Dad. And I consider my religion the biggest and best gift I can provide to mu children. It will always be there for them, even if they do flounder at different stages in life. And they seem to be lapping it up to, so better than I ever was. But they are young so it's a wait and see on that score. My experience with Atheism however, is that most don't look into it very much other than superficially. Whereas, I have always enjoyed Philosophy, which I take you do as well from what I can gather. I am also a very educated individual and work as a professional. I have a scientific background.
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mouflonrouge
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+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? There are 2 sides to the equation. There is Good = God, and the is evil = Satan. And according to the Prophecy, Satan will appear in our world as a Man of God. The Wolf in sheep's clothing. Just like there is day and there is night. The 2 are in constant battle with you. You are capable of both Good and Evil too. Evil exists everywhere you look. It's easy to find. And humans are capable of a lot of debauchery. All you have to do is look at the War in Syria. That is what evil can do. But if you look for it, you will also find Good, even in Syria. And furthermore, God gave man free will. He will not control man. It's your life to live. You can choose to be Good, or evil. But you will be held accountable. And there will be a price to pay. You seem to think God owes us in this life. He doesn't. People will still be poor, miserable, sick and die from Cancer. To us, it seems significant in our world, but to God, it isn't. He will provide something more eternal than this life we know, but he won't help you win the lotto in this life or become rich with earthly possessions and riches. Also, the papacy hasn't has not raped any children. There are allegations of Sexual Abuse made against some priests. Big difference between this and the papacy. And the vast majority of these allegations are about touching. Basically, it is possible for a priest to land himself in hot water for merely hugging a child which use to happen all the time in the old days. These days, no Catholic Priest will dare to even touch a child with a finger because if someone complains, they are in trouble. This is at one end of the scale. Of course there are allegedly far more serious allegations than a mere hug. You seem to think that just because someone is a priest, they are not capable of evil. Not true. Priests are NOT God. They are HUMAN and subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us. Now granted. The vast majority of priests are good and honourable men. But they are not immune from evil.
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mouflonrouge
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Basically, if God was interfering as you seem to imply (he works in mysterious ways) then he would have helped his own Son Jesus Christ in his life. But God, His Father, never clicked his fingers to stop the lashings, the torture, the crown of thorns, the thirst, or His crucifixion.
But He did click his fingers and resurrect Him from the dead, and then enunciate him to Heaven 3 days after.
So with all the torture and debauchery he allowed his own Son to be subjected to, then just imagine what trials and tribulations He will subject us to. We will all be subject to many challenges in life. They will build our character and challenge us all in different ways. It's not as easy to just prey and all your woes will be over. It probably won't happen, but He will give you strength to face up to these challenges and hopefully conquer and succeed.
Babies are sometimes taken to their death from the cot or from birth, some with bad diseases such as Cancer even after a few breaths. Why does He allow that? He allows it because He wants them (their souls) right now. They are the chosen ones. And what we perceive to be misfortune, isn't really a misfortune for them once you know where they will be going.
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Muz
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+x[quote]Basically, if God was interfering as you seem to imply (he works in mysterious ways) then he would have helped his own Son Jesus Christ in his life. But God, His Father, never clicked his fingers to stop the lashings, the torture, the crown of thorns, the thirst, or His crucifixion.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x[quote]Basically, if God was interfering as you seem to imply (he works in mysterious ways) then he would have helped his own Son Jesus Christ in his life. But God, His Father, never clicked his fingers to stop the lashings, the torture, the crown of thorns, the thirst, or His crucifixion.
Mock at your own peril. The last bastion of the scoundrel who has no argument.
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Muz
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Pretty much this. 
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mouflonrouge
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No one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't.
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Muz
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+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. It's OUR identity. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning.
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Muz
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+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then?
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then? Plenty! I am more than happy to show you too, but not here. Only in the flesh!
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then? Plenty! I am more than happy to show you too, but not here. Only in the flesh! So none.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then? Plenty! I am more than happy to show you too, but not here. Only in the flesh! So none. So you are too scared to take my offer? Didn't think you would. It would take a brave and open minded man with a thirst of knowledge. Offer still stands though.
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Davide82
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+xThat's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. That's lovely but that's just being part of a community. Your community may be based around worship of a god but it doesn't have to. There are also lonely believers not part of a community. You can't just combine the two notions and feel you have proved something.
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Muz
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@ mouflon. If you can answer this question honestly it will determine the amount of intellectual honesty I will ascribe to your arguments. If you can't then I'm finished here. Here it is. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion?
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x@ mouflon. If you can answer this question honestly it will determine the amount of intellectual honesty I will ascribe to your arguments. If you can't then I'm finished here. Here it is. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? In all honesty, I am very lucky enough to be born into a very rich culture and religion that dates back to the first disciples. I am very proud of my heritage and the struggles of my ancestors and sad at the time as we as a people suffered a lot under Islam. I am also happy to be an Israeli Citizen because when the Israelis took over, we had our Human Rights given to us as equal citizens of that Country including representation in the Knesset which is something we could never have under Islamic Rule. So now, for the first time in centuries, our populations are recovering. We are free to practice our religion and be ourselves. As a result, I am very untrusting of Islam. We have suffered. We as a people have never inflicted such misery and genocide against any people. The worse thing that can ever happen for us is the dissolution of Israel - The Jewish State. They have a different religion to us and a different culture, but we love them as our countrymen and trusdt them more because they haven't done anything bad to us. They probably saved us from extinction.
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Muz
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+x+x@ mouflon. If you can answer this question honestly it will determine the amount of intellectual honesty I will ascribe to your arguments. If you can't then I'm finished here. Here it is. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? In all honesty, I am very lucky enough to be born into a very rich culture and religion that dates back to the first disciples. I am very proud of my heritage and the struggles of my ancestors and sad at the time as we as a people suffered a lot under Islam. I am also happy to be an Israeli Citizen because when the Israelis took over, we had our Human Rights given to us as equal citizens of that Country including representation in the Knesset which is something we could never have under Islamic Rule. So now, for the first time in centuries, our populations are recovering. We are free to practice our religion and be ourselves. As a result, I am very untrusting of Islam. We have suffered. We as a people have never inflicted such misery and genocide against any people. The worse thing that can ever happen for us is the dissolution of Israel - The Jewish State. They have a different religion to us and a different culture, but we love them as our countrymen and trusdt them more because they haven't done anything bad to us. They probably saved us from extinction. You didn't answer the question.
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mouflonrouge
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Anyway, back to the topic.
Cardinal Pell's trial isn't about his alleged inaction as Bishop of The Australian Archdiocese. The whole point of these charges is because the authorities have recieved statements of allegations implicating him to Sexual Abuse as well.
Now, I want to see the evidence to all that. And we will all get that chance. :)
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sokorny
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+xAnyway, back to the topic. Cardinal Pell's trial isn't about his alleged inaction as Bishop of The Australian Archdiocese. The whole point of these charges is because the authorities have recieved statements of allegations implicating him to Sexual Abuse as well. Now, I want to see the evidence to all that. And we will all get that chance. :) I wouldn't have thought that evidence would be made available to the public ... at least not while the trial is underway.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+xAnyway, back to the topic. Cardinal Pell's trial isn't about his alleged inaction as Bishop of The Australian Archdiocese. The whole point of these charges is because the authorities have recieved statements of allegations implicating him to Sexual Abuse as well. Now, I want to see the evidence to all that. And we will all get that chance. :) I wouldn't have thought that evidence would be made available to the public ... at least not while the trial is underway. No it wouldn't be available I think. Everything will be suppressed to ensure a fair trial and to avoid any undue influence on the jury, if that is still possible. I believe the media has serious questions to answer to as well, and should probably be now held in contempt! I'm not sure if the rules are relaxed outside of Victoria. Either way, everything will be scrutinised carefully in court and when its all finished we will know. I am very happy that the media circus has now ended.
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paulbagzFC
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I see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB
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433
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+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic.
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433
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+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Lol, Christians have been whining about the "war on Christmas" for as long as I can remember. Muslims don't shut the fuck up about people disrespecting their faith. Religious people are the most precious people in existence. As to your second point: > God is all knowing and omnipotent > Gives children incurable bone cancer Reconcile this. I'm eagerly awaiting some non-sequitur about how I haven't studied philosophy or some rubbish. Or the standard response: god works in mysterious ways that is beyond our understanding, so that's why 3 year olds get cancer. Gimme a break.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Lol, Christians have been whining about the "war on Christmas" for as long as I can remember. Muslims don't shut the fuck up about people disrespecting their faith. Religious people are the most precious people in existence. As to your second point: > God is all knowing and omnipotent > Gives children incurable bone cancer Reconcile this. I'm eagerly awaiting some non-sequitur about how I haven't studied philosophy or some rubbish. Or the standard response: god works in mysterious ways that is beyond our understanding, so that's why 3 year olds get cancer. Gimme a break. I don't think so. Christians have been taking it for a very long time, and if anything, just will not engage. But the toxicity is escalating. You say we are precious. But do you really believe we are more precious than let's say, The Muslims or Atheists are? No of course we are not. Not even close. We don't bitch or whine. Who is doing all the whining? Who is concerned about Christian beliefs? Christians are not bothered with the beliefs of Atheists. Their business and their free will to do whatever they want. And that's even when we are told that our beliefs could be offensive...I mean seriously? Why would our beliefs be offensive and Islamic beliefs are not offensive? Can't you see the irony here? And if we are offensive as some seem to think we are, do we as Christians not have a right to BE OFFENDED at this intolerance? Of course we do. You are just blinded to not see it! I already told you all about the bad things that occur in this world. God will not stop wars, earthquakes or child cancer. But there is a very bright side to it all. A child who dies at birth or of cancer at a very young age is innocent. They are more fortunate than we are according to our beliefs. And you would want me to be 100% correct about that too, otherwise there is no end to evil or misery or human suffering. He won't help you get that Sports Car either, or win lotto, or become rich but we believe he will give you strength. How you define that is up to the individual. The meaning varies from person to person. It could mean confidence. It could mean the strength to lead a good life. It could mean strength to face up to cancer even and that awful gruesome death that awaits you. It could be comfort and love and the power derived from that. It could mean strength to face up to the cross you must bear in life. Everyone has a cross to bear, even His Son Jesus Christ for who he didn't make his omnipotence known or click his fingers to end his own flesh the suffering and indignity of torture, pain and one of the most gruesome deaths known to man. Maybe that should put babies dieing with cancer in a bit more context. for you rather than your illogical rant which you bestow upon the faithful. God, did not intervene in the gruesome death of His own flesh (his Son Jesus Christ). But, according to our beliefs, Jesus Christ and all the babies taken to an early and also gruesome death because of Cancer or some other terrible disease, are sitting beside him right now as little angels. And btw, "God works in m mysterious ways" isn't a standard response nor is it part of our thesis or scripture. We believe that God has given everyone free will to exercise their lives as they wish. Capable of Good and Evil. The existence of evil isn't proof of his non-existence, but rather the opposite. He will not end poverty, or the all the world's ills or wars or disease. But he will take care of His people when the time comes, even after death. It's much easier for a poor man to enter Heaven through the eye of a sewing needle than it is a Rich person. Jesus was one of the poorest people during his time. A regular hypster if you will. You see! Our beliefs aren't as illogical as you seem to think.
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433
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So the role of god is to give us strength to deal with the problems that he himself bestowed upon us?
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mouflonrouge
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+xSo the role of god is to give us strength to deal with the problems that he himself bestowed upon us? No not exactly. That isn't his role. His role is a lot more important than that. Yes he loves us. Probably give us all strength too and help us in little ways. But his role is to rule the universe and the heavens, and fight the final war. He will be a part of the final war humankind will ever see. A war no one has ever seen before, and which will kill most people on the planet. And he will even have His own Army. It sounds terrible doesn't it. It sounds awful. And it will be terrible and awful. People will see the power of evil and the power of good. It will be the most epic and gruesome battle ever to hit us. And then there will be peace.
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BETHFC
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+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Religion is a bandwagon..... You indoctrinate your children to follow your way of life. They have no way of thinking their own way through spirituality. Religion is always illogical when analysed without bias. It's the nature of faith which is completely unscientific. I had numerous debates about the logic behind religion and it goes around in circles. It's easier to see religion for what it is, faith basic logic. Not to be confused with the dictionary definition of logic. When it comes to flaws, miracles are a bad start when it comes to explaining logic pillars of your faith. I say faith because faith transcends logic for most. If that's your deal embrace it.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Religion is a bandwagon..... You indoctrinate your children to follow your way of life. They have no way of thinking their own way through spirituality. Religion is always illogical when analysed without bias. It's the nature of faith which is completely unscientific. I had numerous debates about the logic behind religion and it goes around in circles. It's easier to see religion for what it is, faith basic logic. Not to be confused with the dictionary definition of logic. When it comes to flaws, miracles are a bad start when it comes to explaining logic pillars of your faith. I say faith because faith transcends logic for most. If that's your deal embrace it. No it's not. Religion is a tradition based on historical fact. We do not indoctrinate anyone. Everyone has their free will to think about their pathway through life. Nothing was EVER rammed down my throat. And I already explained that I went through different phases in life to reach to the point of where I am now. So I know how an Atheist/Agnostic thinks. They way in which they are flawed and ignorant, and even illogical. I know all the arguments. Arguments such as Religion is there to explain the unexplainable and to get Man to pass their fear of Death. Fact is though, our God will bring Fire and Death to earth in a grand showdown with evil. Hardly of any comfort to the fearful now is it? And what is illogical is your attitude for thinking we are illogical about our spiritual beliefs. Despite the fact that you in fact must have some kind of spiritual belief in God in order to be a Free Mason. So again, please tell me why we are illogical and you not. When it comes to spiritual beliefs, there are many real life experiences and interactions with the spiritual or the unexplained metaphysical world if you seek it. I was once an Atheist, but had a very open mind, searched for the answers and found them in far away places. And I had a blast doing it too.
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BETHFC
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+x+x+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Religion is a bandwagon..... You indoctrinate your children to follow your way of life. They have no way of thinking their own way through spirituality. Religion is always illogical when analysed without bias. It's the nature of faith which is completely unscientific. I had numerous debates about the logic behind religion and it goes around in circles. It's easier to see religion for what it is, faith basic logic. Not to be confused with the dictionary definition of logic. When it comes to flaws, miracles are a bad start when it comes to explaining logic pillars of your faith. I say faith because faith transcends logic for most. If that's your deal embrace it. No it's not. Religion is a tradition based on historical fact. We do not indoctrinate anyone. Everyone has their free will to think about their pathway through life. Nothing was EVER rammed down my throat. And I already explained that I went through different phases in life to reach to the point of where I am now. So I know how an Atheist/Agnostic thinks. They way in which they are flawed and ignorant, and even illogical. I know all the arguments. Arguments such as Religion is there to explain the unexplainable and to get Man to pass their fear of Death. Fact is though, our God will bring Fire and Death to earth in a grand showdown with evil. Hardly of any comfort to the fearful now is it? And what is illogical is your attitude for thinking we are illogical about our spiritual beliefs. Despite the fact that you in fact must have some kind of spiritual belief in God in order to be a Free Mason. So again, please tell me why we are illogical and you not. When it comes to spiritual beliefs, there are many real life experiences and interactions with the spiritual or the unexplained metaphysical world if you seek it. I was once an Atheist, but had a very open mind, searched for the answers and found them in far away places. And I had a blast doing it too. Historical fact.... hahahahaha. Of course its indoctrination. I'd wager 99% of parents would teach their kids about their own religion before they are of an age that they can pick for themselves. Fearful of God? No I am not afraid of a sadist. Freemasonry doesn't require belief in God but belief in a higher power. I don't believe in sadists who get upset if you make graven images of them. Real life interactions never stack up. It's like saying I had a real life interaction with a unicorn in a dream so they must be real.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Religion is a bandwagon..... You indoctrinate your children to follow your way of life. They have no way of thinking their own way through spirituality. Religion is always illogical when analysed without bias. It's the nature of faith which is completely unscientific. I had numerous debates about the logic behind religion and it goes around in circles. It's easier to see religion for what it is, faith basic logic. Not to be confused with the dictionary definition of logic. When it comes to flaws, miracles are a bad start when it comes to explaining logic pillars of your faith. I say faith because faith transcends logic for most. If that's your deal embrace it. No it's not. Religion is a tradition based on historical fact. We do not indoctrinate anyone. Everyone has their free will to think about their pathway through life. Nothing was EVER rammed down my throat. And I already explained that I went through different phases in life to reach to the point of where I am now. So I know how an Atheist/Agnostic thinks. They way in which they are flawed and ignorant, and even illogical. I know all the arguments. Arguments such as Religion is there to explain the unexplainable and to get Man to pass their fear of Death. Fact is though, our God will bring Fire and Death to earth in a grand showdown with evil. Hardly of any comfort to the fearful now is it? And what is illogical is your attitude for thinking we are illogical about our spiritual beliefs. Despite the fact that you in fact must have some kind of spiritual belief in God in order to be a Free Mason. So again, please tell me why we are illogical and you not. When it comes to spiritual beliefs, there are many real life experiences and interactions with the spiritual or the unexplained metaphysical world if you seek it. I was once an Atheist, but had a very open mind, searched for the answers and found them in far away places. And I had a blast doing it too. Historical fact.... hahahahaha. Of course its indoctrination. I'd wager 99% of parents would teach their kids about their own religion before they are of an age that they can pick for themselves. Fearful of God? No I am not afraid of a sadist. Freemasonry doesn't require belief in God but belief in a higher power. I don't believe in sadists who get upset if you make graven images of them. Real life interactions never stack up. It's like saying I had a real life interaction with a unicorn in a dream so they must be real. No it's not indoctrination at all. Our religion at least, does not indoctrinate anyone. It has baptisms, but it takes a lot more than a baptism to be indoctrinated into our Church and that can only come through their FREE WILL in accordance with our teachings. Our religion does not forbid Atheism, or other teachings. In fact our traditions are steeped in pagan rituals which pre-date any Christianity. Indoctrination is what we have in the Education Systems with the curricula and the education of your children within the Primary School sector with this new era of rubbish they are pushing onto children including their sexualisation. I will leave the unicorns to you, but there is so much solid evidence of the existence of God, none more so than the fact that in 2000 years, the teachings of one JC are now followed by more than 2.2 billion people globally, not to mention the billions who adhere to the teachings of Judaism and Islam. The good news is that our religion has solid foundations, and will always exist until the end of times. Societies beliefs however, are a mere fad. It's just a fashion accessory. It changes within just a few years even.
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433
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB Religious people are way too easy to bait. Just point out an inconsistency in their logic and watch them go. Religious people don't jump on bandwagons and get all flustered over mundane things like Christmas Cards or are worried about other people's beliefs like you are for religious people which you seem to think are illogical. How audacious and arrogant. Please explain to us the flaws about our logic. Religion is a bandwagon..... You indoctrinate your children to follow your way of life. They have no way of thinking their own way through spirituality. Religion is always illogical when analysed without bias. It's the nature of faith which is completely unscientific. I had numerous debates about the logic behind religion and it goes around in circles. It's easier to see religion for what it is, faith basic logic. Not to be confused with the dictionary definition of logic. When it comes to flaws, miracles are a bad start when it comes to explaining logic pillars of your faith. I say faith because faith transcends logic for most. If that's your deal embrace it. No it's not. Religion is a tradition based on historical fact. We do not indoctrinate anyone. Everyone has their free will to think about their pathway through life. Nothing was EVER rammed down my throat. And I already explained that I went through different phases in life to reach to the point of where I am now. So I know how an Atheist/Agnostic thinks. They way in which they are flawed and ignorant, and even illogical. I know all the arguments. Arguments such as Religion is there to explain the unexplainable and to get Man to pass their fear of Death. Fact is though, our God will bring Fire and Death to earth in a grand showdown with evil. Hardly of any comfort to the fearful now is it? And what is illogical is your attitude for thinking we are illogical about our spiritual beliefs. Despite the fact that you in fact must have some kind of spiritual belief in God in order to be a Free Mason. So again, please tell me why we are illogical and you not. When it comes to spiritual beliefs, there are many real life experiences and interactions with the spiritual or the unexplained metaphysical world if you seek it. I was once an Atheist, but had a very open mind, searched for the answers and found them in far away places. And I had a blast doing it too. Historical fact.... hahahahaha. Of course its indoctrination. I'd wager 99% of parents would teach their kids about their own religion before they are of an age that they can pick for themselves. Fearful of God? No I am not afraid of a sadist. Freemasonry doesn't require belief in God but belief in a higher power. I don't believe in sadists who get upset if you make graven images of them. Real life interactions never stack up. It's like saying I had a real life interaction with a unicorn in a dream so they must be real. ...there is so much solid evidence of the existence of God, none more so than the fact that in 2000 years, the teachings of one JC are now followed by more than 2.2 billion people globally... 
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mouflonrouge
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+xI see this thread is going nowhere as anticipated. -PB It's actually a very interesting conversation. Probably one of the best we have had around here for a while. But not everyone's cup of tea. For those, they are free to opt out of course and not participate or even read. It's a free world, with freedom of thought and freedom to do and be whatever you desire. What you don't find interesting, might not be the case for the next person who would be completely opposite to you. But you got to admit. This thread has raised some pertinent facts. A few weeks ago, everyone was on the "let's hang the cardinal bandwagon". Everyone was talking about him enjoying a steak and a beer. Mocking him for not coming to face the music. Well, now that he is here, everyone is back-peddling a million miles per hour. Doesn't seem to be the actions of a guilty man now does it? I'm just commenting on my observations as I see them. I'm just the messenger bringing the craziness and hypocrisy to the fore. I know many don't like it, but I can't change the facts.
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mouflonrouge
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It's a pretty fake world out there. You look at the reverence given to the very wealthy raising millions for charity.
But how charitable are they with all their monetary wealth. Are they more charitable than you or me? Are they more charitable because they raised millions and sent a press release as well to promote their exposure? Is their charity altruistic? Is it genuine? It may be. But for most it probably isn't. But they get the accolades from this fake world.
Now what about the unsung volunteer, or the poor homeless man that bought his homeless mate a meal and a blanket? The nurses, and working class charity volunteers.
The homeless man's ten bucks of charity is worth a whole lot more than some charity fundraising event for the rich and famous. Also altruistic and not some publicity stunt.
If the world's rich and famous were so concerned, why don't they just humbly cut a cheque and be done with it. Because it isn't about charity but political mileage. But hey, at least money is going to charity I guess, even though it may be for the wrong non-altruistic reasons. It still could go a long way to alleviate someone's pain somewhere.
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433
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mouflonrouge
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Yes well you need to do some reading. Christians are very clear about his so called ROLE. His role is a lot more important than that. Yes he loves us. Probably give us all strength too and help us in little ways. But his role is to rule the universe and the heavens, and fight the final war. He will be a part of the final war humankind will ever see. A war no one has ever seen before, and which will kill most people on the planet. And he will even have His own Army. It sounds terrible doesn't it. It sounds awful. And it will be terrible and awful. People will see the power of evil and the power of good. It will be the most epic and gruesome battle ever to hit us. And then there will be peace. It has been written and there have been movies made about it too. And this war has been going since the beginning of time, but on His plane. According to the prophecy, these forces will metamorphose into a human form on earth and the entire world will descend in the war of all ages. Something to look forward to....
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And Everyone Blamed Clive
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Good stuff Bloke A has experience that Science cant verify. Trys to pick an arguement with Bloke B who worships Science
Winner of Official 442 Comment of the day Award - 10th April 2017
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BETHFC
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+xGood stuff Bloke A has experience that Science cant verify. Trys to pick an arguement with Bloke B who worships Science Being able to make scientific observations is not worshipping science champ.
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paulbagzFC
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So Allah is real too then? -PB
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mouflonrouge
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+xSo Allah is real too then? -PB It's the same God. They just use a different interpretation and a different prophet (Mohammed) in lieu of Jesus Christ who wasn't just a prophet but The Son of God (and Allah). As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ is also an Islamic Prophet. Muslims revere Jesus Christ as a messenger of Allah. The bible is also a holy book of Islam. So yes, Allah is just what the Muslims refer to as God. And here is the real Kicker. The Jews ALSO believe in the very same god as Christians and Muslims.
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