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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks.
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Muz
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+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 14K,
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+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God.
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Davide82
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+xThat's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. That's lovely but that's just being part of a community. Your community may be based around worship of a god but it doesn't have to. There are also lonely believers not part of a community. You can't just combine the two notions and feel you have proved something.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 14K,
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+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 14K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then?
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point.
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mouflonrouge
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2 Yes we have seen the results of your so called "ethics". It may be the case in your benchmarks in your society, but you know nothing about my society, it's culture or beliefs. The mere fact that we don't neck ourselves in the garden shed, and have better mental wellness than your society, is an indication of our ethics and social cohesion which you do not have.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then? Plenty! I am more than happy to show you too, but not here. Only in the flesh!
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Davide82
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+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then? Plenty! I am more than happy to show you too, but not here. Only in the flesh! So none.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2 Yes we have seen the results of your so called "ethics". It may be the case in your benchmarks in your society, but you know nothing about my society, it's culture or beliefs. The mere fact that we don't neck ourselves in the garden shed, and have better mental wellness than your society, is an indication of our ethics and social cohesion which you do not have. Or that brainwashed lunatics are horrified at the thought, since suicide is a 'sin', of burning in eternal damnation. That might have something to do with it to.
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Muz
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One more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another.
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Muz
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@ mouflon. If you can answer this question honestly it will determine the amount of intellectual honesty I will ascribe to your arguments. If you can't then I'm finished here. Here it is. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion?
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xNo one is forced. Our children are very grateful to be born into such a very rich culture of which religion is a big part but not the only part. Our rituals and customs actually pre-date Christianity and are thousands of years old. Our families have direction. Our divorce rates are much lower. Our suicide rate is the lowest in the world. Australia's is one of the highest! Is that a byproduct of a Godless society I ask? I have no doubt that our culture (and religion) has saved thousands of lives who would have otherwise necked themselves in the garden shed. Hence, our mental wellness is superior as a result due to some part at least to our Church. That's because even the loneliest of our congregations, isn't lonely. They have a family. No lonely Christmas or Easter, and always have a shoulder if they need one. You guys have no direction as much as you think you do, you just don't. Your first statement is a straight out lie. You are the religion you are because culturally that is religion of your people. Nothing more. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Qatar there is a 99.9% chance you would be a muslim. The fact that you can't see that your particular type religiosity is a cultural fluke shows you how deluded you are. I think you are confused. Our religion is our culture. Like the Aborigines and their Dreaming. Like the Jews and Judaism. We are who we are because of our religion. Our religion has helped us survive persecution, wars and genocide. It's given us the strength to survive. And to this day, it gives us the strength to stick by our families, not divorce over stupid arguments and silly things, raise our children and have the lowest suicide rate. It gives us direction and meaning. I'm not confused. That fact you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. Prove it isn't! There is more evidence to suggest it is true. You just can't open your eyes. Oh and btw, there is only one God. The same one and only as professed by Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. You are making the extraordinary claim. YOU prove it. We have! All you need to do is open your eyes, travel and see for yourself. Plus I think you are putting me on a pedestal here. I am just a humble Man, not God Himself. I would never display such arrogance and tell you I have all the answers because there is no one on this earth who does. We do have our Churches though, our icons, our miracle performing relics, and many supernatural phenomena. You can see for yourself. You don't have anything, just whah whah look at me, I am an Atheist and the science can't prove God. So none then? Plenty! I am more than happy to show you too, but not here. Only in the flesh! So none. So you are too scared to take my offer? Didn't think you would. It would take a brave and open minded man with a thirst of knowledge. Offer still stands though.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]If God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmRon Barrier, Spokespersonn for American Atheists remarked on these findings with some rather caustic comments against organized religion. He said: "These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage." 2 Yes we have seen the results of your so called "ethics". It may be the case in your benchmarks in your society, but you know nothing about my society, it's culture or beliefs. The mere fact that we don't neck ourselves in the garden shed, and have better mental wellness than your society, is an indication of our ethics and social cohesion which you do not have. Or that brainwashed lunatics are horrified at the thought, since suicide is a 'sin', of burning in eternal damnation. That might have something to do with it to. No one is ever brainwashed into our religion. This is another myth. All of us have what is called in the Bible according to JC's words, FREE WILL. Being baptized is only the first step. What happens after that is that one must try to conduct themselves in moral ways. If you don't, well then there are repercussions.
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mouflonrouge
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+xOne more thing from your comic strip. If there is no God there is no such thing as real evil because there is no standard by which we can call any horrific acts of man objectively wrong. If we are just carbon blobs meandering through an accidental and utterly meaningless existence then morality is just a set of opinions people impose on other.The above I think encapsulates what I think religious people simply cannot wrap their minds around. They simply cannot conceive of a a world, a galaxy or a universe where we simply inhabit no special place in the scheme of things. But that's the difference between them and me, I'm ok with that. My mind is at ease. I was not here for billions of years before this point in time and in a few decades (fingers crossed) I will not be here for billions of years. I honestly believe religious people just can't fathom that somehow we're (and by that I mean humanity) is not special in some way or another. But there is evil. Lot's of it. In our society is also evil. Take the treatment of Cardinal Pell for instance. That was pure evil too, because everyone thought it was ok to trample on this man';s human rights. Well sorry, but you can't make it up as you go along.
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mouflonrouge
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+x@ mouflon. If you can answer this question honestly it will determine the amount of intellectual honesty I will ascribe to your arguments. If you can't then I'm finished here. Here it is. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? In all honesty, I am very lucky enough to be born into a very rich culture and religion that dates back to the first disciples. I am very proud of my heritage and the struggles of my ancestors and sad at the time as we as a people suffered a lot under Islam. I am also happy to be an Israeli Citizen because when the Israelis took over, we had our Human Rights given to us as equal citizens of that Country including representation in the Knesset which is something we could never have under Islamic Rule. So now, for the first time in centuries, our populations are recovering. We are free to practice our religion and be ourselves. As a result, I am very untrusting of Islam. We have suffered. We as a people have never inflicted such misery and genocide against any people. The worse thing that can ever happen for us is the dissolution of Israel - The Jewish State. They have a different religion to us and a different culture, but we love them as our countrymen and trusdt them more because they haven't done anything bad to us. They probably saved us from extinction.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago let alone a thousand.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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+x+x@ mouflon. If you can answer this question honestly it will determine the amount of intellectual honesty I will ascribe to your arguments. If you can't then I'm finished here. Here it is. Do you honestly believe that if you were born into another non-christian religion, in a non-christian culture and country you would be anything other than a believer in a non-christian religion? In all honesty, I am very lucky enough to be born into a very rich culture and religion that dates back to the first disciples. I am very proud of my heritage and the struggles of my ancestors and sad at the time as we as a people suffered a lot under Islam. I am also happy to be an Israeli Citizen because when the Israelis took over, we had our Human Rights given to us as equal citizens of that Country including representation in the Knesset which is something we could never have under Islamic Rule. So now, for the first time in centuries, our populations are recovering. We are free to practice our religion and be ourselves. As a result, I am very untrusting of Islam. We have suffered. We as a people have never inflicted such misery and genocide against any people. The worse thing that can ever happen for us is the dissolution of Israel - The Jewish State. They have a different religion to us and a different culture, but we love them as our countrymen and trusdt them more because they haven't done anything bad to us. They probably saved us from extinction. You didn't answer the question.
Member since 2008.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. Of course I believe morality is changing. Not for the better either as we have seen in the last 20 odd years. We are regressing big time. There is much less love, cohesion, and unity today - and don't forget about that suicide rate you keep avoiding. that is a big pandemic and skeleton in the closet.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 14K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. Yes I've heard you are a type of 'ice cream' I'm just wondering what particular 'flavour'. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing.
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mouflonrouge
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. I agree time to go back to basics. Let's bring back slavery Let's persecute homosexuals Let's not let women vote Let's treat women as property Let's ban inter racial relationships and marriages Let's treat indigenous populations as animals and sub-human Let's bring back the death penalty Let's beat our children with the rod Correlation is not causation. That is exactly what you DO have. You have slavery. You ARE a slave. No one has the vote or power to make the difference. Democracy is window dressing and is only for the Rich and Corporations. Other races can marry one of us, but they will need to be converted into our Church otherwise no Honey! We don't treat women as property. our Church is against Prostitution. You support it. We have never persecuted homosexuals, ever. Your society does. We have not treated indigenous people's as sub humans. In fact, we too are indigenous in our homeland and hundreds of thousands of us were murdered. We wouldn't do that to others because we were on the receiving end for hundreds of years. We are against the Death penalty and do not believe in State Sponsored murder. We do not beat children, and we intervene when we find any of our children in an abusive household and offer help for the child and the parents. You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried on every single point. Take your strawman elsewhere please. I am talking about evolving morality. You cannot, with a straight face, deny that these practices were once acceptable and are now unacceptable. These are all examples of morality that has changed. It isn't a straw man. The straw man was yours when you made dumb and ignorant statements that we support slavery, slavery of women, abuse of women, that we are racist, treat women as property, mistreat homosexuals, beat children, and support the death penalty. You couldn't be further from the truth if you tried. Yes morality has changed. It has changed for the worse. there is less morality today than ever before. Humanity is under siege. Look around you and see the anger in your society, your suicide rate, the poverty, the divorce rates, the number of broken families and the societal results. No one is talking about 'your' religion. (Seeing we don't even know what it is it's a bit hard to criticise it. I'd be surprised if you volunteered what sect you belonged to.) So by your admission morality has changed and is not a sacrosanct, immutable set of laws. Good. At least we're agreed on something. As for your other guff the world is objectively better by just about any measure than it was 100 years ago. I have divulged what religion I am a part of. And it shouldn't be hard to work out either. I am not part of a sect. As I've obviously missed it would you care to repeat it? Sect / cult, it's all the same thing. Eastern Orthodox! Syriac, Coptic and Antioch Orthodox Church to be precise. http://www.antiochianarch.org.au/Iconostasis.aspx
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Davide82
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 12K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+xIf God is all knowing and omnipotent, why does he allow children to be raped by the papacy? I feel like the argument about God and evil is a bit of a catch 22. For those who believe in a god, the existence of suffering and evil is used as an argument against his existence. However, for those who don't believe in a god, then good and evil do not objectively exist and are merely human constructs (or evolutionary byproducts), and so the objection to such great evils are without basis (unless one concedes god as a basis for objective morality, instead of mere subjective ethics). This isn't an answer to your question - merely a point that "the problem of evil" is actually an issue for all world views. To me personally, this philosophical tension led me to believe there must actually be a god (for I was convinced that evil was real and not subjective). Now this wasn't the only reason I became a believer, but one of many arguments. A comical but helpful expression of this argument is found in the following comic: http://adam4d.com/evil-world/Edit: Not wanting to have a philosophical debate on here - they rarely are a good use of anyone's time and I don't expect this to be different. Not because of the parties involved, but because of the medium. Internet forums don't allow the nuances that face-to-face conversations have, nor the instantaneous back and forth that allows for clarification and understanding. The reason I replied (against my better judgement) was to hopefully show that no one can claim the problem of evil isn't a concern for their world view, and to show that there are philosophical counter-arguments to this common argument - and in the end, neither side has a winning argument. Now if you want to know what I believe and why, or would like a book/lecture that I'd recommend that captures my view well, feel free to PM me. I read your post and I read the comic strip. 'If there is no God then what we know as 'morality' is nothing but a biological adaption aiding us in our struggle for survival. It has no foundation; It's an entirely-subjective product of evolution with no meaning whatsoever beyond prolonging the existence of our species.'
This is exactly what I believe to be true. The proof of the above is that 'morality' is constantly evolving and never constant. What was acceptable centuries or decades ago is no longer acceptable or vice versa. The bible and evangelical adherents would havbe you believe the opposite. Take slavery for example, or gay marriage, or inter-racial relationships, or women as property or chattels or the concept of purgatory or 'limbo' or the right to vote or be counted as people and not fauna. All of these beliefs have evolved over time. The inherent 'morality' of any of those positions you hold regards the above are purely subjective. (And always will be.) As for the other arguments and in the same vein 'Evil' is a completely human construct. What is 'Natural' is anything that 'nature' permits. Murder is perfectly natural in a natural world. It happens a million times a day in the natural world. (Including in primate groups.) You will never see a headline in the paper that says 'shark murders penguin'. It just is. It is neither evil nor good. It is nature. The fact that we see murder or anything else as 'evil' or 'good' are human distinctions due to a quirk in our collective consciousnesses. We are 98% chimpanzee after all. The fact that we see 'murder' as bad is probably a good thing but even that has it's own distinctions and caveats. Take the death penalty for example. Our morality (or some peoples versions of morality say murder is bad in one setting but not another'. That's a human distinction and it differs from society to society. God really is Santa Claus for adults. Yes morality is constantly evolving alright. And look at the results. Suicide up, misery at unprecedented levels. loneliness in our communities, homeless, bullying at work and so on, divorce at an all time high, and split families and anxious children with so many issues and problems as a result. Time to get back to basics and discard all the silliness methinks. Why do people believe that things are exclusive to their little time in history/existence? Misery at unprecedented levels? What sort of subjective statement is that? What is your basis for comparison? Adelaide 2017 vs Black Death 14th Century London? Homelessness...yeah....not exactly a new concept. When and where are you comparing to what? Bullying did not exist prior to our godless society? Divorce may be higher now coz in the old days you just had affairs and beat your wife if she questioned you knowing full well it was your right and you owned her. Teenagers have always been shits. Now they are probably over diagnosed or overexposed to media and more shitty teenagers (ie 50 in a schoolyard in my day vs 25,000 online now) but that is neither here nor there when it comes to God. I would ask you these questions. Humans have been pondering philosophical thought processes for millennia. Christianity is a very sophisticated form of philosophy and belief structure which is pretty much extremely impossible to explain to anyone, and especially to those who do not want to learn or who are closed. The only thing I can say to you is, to open your mind and stop being so dismissive. You in reality do not know what you believe, and your beliefs will change as you enter different phases in life whether you think that might not be the case and that your mind is already made up. You need to read philosophical books. The bible too. But not everything hinges on that. You need to travel, and visit some holy places with an open mind and decide from there. I have an interest in religion (in a historical sense more than from a belief standpoint) and know as much about Christianity and the writings as quite probably a lot of church goers do. I am even confirmed for what it's worth(nothing). I am well read in many fields but I certainly do not claim to be an expert in one. I have also questioned many many times my beliefs, on an almost daily basis. I haven't travelled to what you would deem a holy site butr neither have most christians so is clearly not usually a requirement for faith despite ity being the one thing you persist in trying to "get" others on. None of what you replied and none of what i am writing now changes what i wrote. Can you honestly and factually tell me "misery is at an all time high" or that "bullying happens more now" (as opposed to it being reported more now possibly)? Can you refute my point that "divorce happens more now" in at least some small part because you shouldn't have to accept infidelity and abuse simply because your community would shun you if you left etc etc? You did not answer a single thing i wrote to you and just claimed i need to visit holy sites and read philosophy.
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