Second Test - Aus v India 2018 in Perth


Second Test - Aus v India 2018 in Perth

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RedKat - 13 Dec 2018 1:55 PM
I thought selectors would be smarter and just bring in Burns. Dont know why i ever have hope. Khawaja opening and Marsh 3 is a disaster

On top of that we have three lefties in top three. That is playing into the hands of an accurate pacer or Ashwin. Would not be surprised if we see him on sooner rather than later if the expected minefield does not eventuate..
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 1:58 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 1:31 PM

Uhmmm - Starc is a great limited overs death bowler.

But I have long given my opinion - they're both overrated in tests imo.

Both have some significant improvements required to be near the level of Aus media adulation heaped upon them.

The Indian boys outbowled them - so Aus really need to lift their game.



You failed to answer the question.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 1:59 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 1:58 PM

referring to red ball cricket. specially Test.

Yeah - I know - I just put in that Starc qualifier so people see how I rate them.

India straight up outbowled Australia in the seam attacks. Bumrah is a menace, Ishant gives nothing away at all, and Shami kept his pace up.

You realize that India bowled only 1km/h slower on average that entire test? 1 km/h on average.

Both teams averaged over 140 km/h. For test match cricket that is some effort.  
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:06 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 1:59 PM

Yeah - I know - I just put in that Starc qualifier so people see how I rate them.

India straight up outbowled Australia in the seam attacks. Bumrah is a menace, Ishant gives nothing away at all, and Shami kept his pace up.

You realize that India bowled only 1km/h slower on average that entire test? 1 km/h on average.

Both teams averaged over 140 km/h. For test match cricket that is some effort.  

Cummins is down on the pace we need from him. On occasions even Haze bowls quicker. 
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 1:31 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 1:23 PM

Also in your opinion who of the two is more valuable to a cricket side. A bloke that has pace as his only potent weapon.. leaks runs and produces fewer than average wicket taking balls to actual batsmen. Or someone that is at you all the time.. giving you little in freebies and taking his wickets more by building pressure. 

There is no real answer here. I want the guy who takes wickets for the fewest runs as swiftly as possible.

How they do that is irrelevant. Be it pace, bouncers, swing, seam, line and length pressure. An excellent bowler is an excellent bowler - they don't need to fit a pre-defined batch. I mean I get the point you're trying to make, but you're building a bit of a straw man towards Mike here. 

I get Mike is rather anti-NSW bias. But just read what he has to say anyway - filter out the wheat from the chaff - there may be some good stuff in there regardless.

End of the day - SR does matter. It gives all the bowlers a new batsman to get out, when he is at his most vulnerable. That is perpetuation of SR, and you can observe it with the WI 4 prong, Waqar* and Wasim then without, Vettorri and Bond, Morrisson with Hadlee and then without Hadlee. I suspect even Lillee benefitted from Thommo. The most obvious example was Boult's 6 for vs England last year when Southee down hil skii'd on his back for a 4 for. It was all Boult creating the initial collapse and the panic set in for batsmen - but Southee still bagged 4 wickets...

A bowler who takes wickets swiftly - drops the average of the rest of the bowling attack... because he gives the breakthrough wicket for a new batsman to start batting. Basically the best SR bowlers improve the stats of the rest of the entire bowling attack. So a guy leaking at 5 runs per over, but taking a wicket every 6 overs is going to win a team a hell of a lot of games despite averaging 30 runs per wicket. And it will be very easy to downshill ski a bowling average in the 20's off of him. Intuitively this is why captains always want to a select a strike bowler when the stats don't seem to add up... They want a guy who breaks partnerships and stops big partnerships from forming. That is why SA went with Morkel over Pollock...

Or a better example - Vernon Philander has the best E/R and average out of Rabada, Steyn and himself. But who do teams fear more? Obviously not big Vern... why - its the SR... Steyn and Rabada are well over 3 runs per over - but their strike rates are insanely good. Rabada below 40. Steyn 42. Philander is very good at 48 - but he's not feared nor respected as much I don't believe like Rabada and Steyn are... 

I didn't want to give the answer to Mike - I wanted him realise it for himself - because he was so close to doing so.

*Doesn't apply to Waqar in reverse but perhaps Wasim missed easy beat games.


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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 2:11 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:06 PM

Cummins is down on the pace we need from him. On occasions even Haze bowls quicker. 

Cummins is down on the pace we need from him. On occasions even Haze bowls quicker. 

When he cranked it up in the first game he clocked no more than mid 140s.  I have seem him set the speed gun at  a sizzling150+ in the past. Having an express bowler in your attack is such a valuable asset... and one as accurate as Pat even more so.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 2:42 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 2:11 PM

Cummins is down on the pace we need from him. On occasions even Haze bowls quicker. 

When he cranked it up in the first game he clocked no more than mid 140s.  I have seem him set the speed gun at  a sizzling150+ in the past. Having an express bowler in your attack is such a valuable asset... and one as accurate as Pat even more so.

Not sure I have seen 150+ since back injury. Seen very high 140's in BBL and limited overs I think.

He is definitely bowling within himself these days.
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:20 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 1:31 PM

There is no real answer here. I want the guy who takes wickets for the fewest runs as swiftly as possible.

How they do that is irrelevant. Be it pace, bouncers, swing, seam, line and length pressure. An excellent bowler is an excellent bowler - they don't need to fit a pre-defined batch. I mean I get the point you're trying to make, but you're building a bit of a straw man towards Mike here. 

I get Mike is rather anti-NSW bias. But just read what he has to say anyway - filter out the wheat from the chaff - there may be some good stuff in there regardless.

End of the day - SR does matter. It gives all the bowlers a new batsman to get out, when he is at his most vulnerable. That is perpetuation of SR, and you can observe it with the WI 4 prong, Waqar* and Wasim then without, Vettorri and Bond, Morrisson with Hadlee and then without Hadlee. I suspect even Lillee benefitted from Thommo. The most obvious example was Boult's 6 for vs England last year when Southee down hil skii'd on his back for a 4 for. It was all Boult creating the initial collapse and the panic set in for batsmen - but Southee still bagged 4 wickets...

A bowler who takes wickets swiftly - drops the average of the rest of the bowling attack... because he gives the breakthrough wicket for a new batsman to start batting. Basically the best SR bowlers improve the stats of the rest of the entire bowling attack. So a guy leaking at 5 runs per over, but taking a wicket every 6 overs is going to win a team a hell of a lot of games despite averaging 30 runs per wicket. And it will be very easy to downshill ski a bowling average in the 20's off of him. Intuitively this is why captains always want to a select a strike bowler when the stats don't seem to add up... They want a guy who breaks partnerships and stops big partnerships from forming. That is why SA went with Morkel over Pollock...

I didn't want to give the answer to Mike - I wanted him realise it for himself - because he was so close to doing so.

*Doesn't apply to Waqar in reverse but perhaps Wasim missed easy beat games.


Makes sense. Still reckon a bloke that builds pressure for another to take that wicket is a valuable commodity to have in any team. Haze does that better than most. I never rated Morkel. Should I have? I did rate Pollock.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 2:48 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:20 PM

Makes sense. Still reckon a bloke that builds pressure for another to take that wicket is a valuable commodity to have in any team. Haze does that better than most. I never rated Morkel. Should I have? I did rate Pollock.

Morne was high quality and just kept getting better and better. His bowling over the last 3 to 4 years was simply outstanding in any format, in any conditions.

I rate him better than Jimmy Anderson. But perhaps he was benefiting from Steyn, Abbot, Vern and Rabada... 

Because it really is the thing, Its like Brett Lee playing with Warne and McGrath and then being asked to lead the attack - and the numbers take a massive dive... It is a team game, and down hill skiing exists for bowlers as well as batsmen.

But Morne was damn fine over the last 4 years, easily stood up proud with all those Great Saffir fast men and held his own. Led the attack in England last year. Very sad that he has retired prematurely for the rich tapestry of county cricket where he took wickets this year 10 runs a piece or so...
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:52 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 2:48 PM

Morne was high quality and just kept getting better and better. His bowling over the last 3 to 4 years was simply outstanding in any format, in any conditions.

I rate him better than Jimmy Anderson. But perhaps he was benefiting from Steyn, Abbot, Vern and Rabada... 

Because it really is the thing, Its like Brett Lee playing with Warne and McGrath and then being asked to lead the attack - and the numbers take a massive dive... It is a team game, and down hill skiing exists for bowlers as well as batsmen.

But Morne was damn fine over the last 4 years, easily stood up proud with all those Great Saffir fast men and held his own. Led the attack in England last year. Very sad that he has retired prematurely for the rich tapestry of county cricket where he took wickets this year 10 runs a piece or so...











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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:52 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 2:48 PM

Morne was high quality and just kept getting better and better. His bowling over the last 3 to 4 years was simply outstanding in any format, in any conditions.

I rate him better than Jimmy Anderson. But perhaps he was benefiting from Steyn, Abbot, Vern and Rabada... 

Because it really is the thing, Its like Brett Lee playing with Warne and McGrath and then being asked to lead the attack - and the numbers take a massive dive... It is a team game, and down hill skiing exists for bowlers as well as batsmen.

But Morne was damn fine over the last 4 years, easily stood up proud with all those Great Saffir fast men and held his own. Led the attack in England last year. Very sad that he has retired prematurely for the rich tapestry of county cricket where he took wickets this year 10 runs a piece or so...

Morkel    86 m.  306 wk  @27.66   3.10 e/r.  53.33 s/r
H/wood  41 m.  155 wk    @26.7   2.79 e/r    57.5  s/r.
Morkel has 8 five wicket hauls. Haze already has 6 five wicket hauls. Both do not have a 10 wk innings haul. 

Compare the two records. Haze has Morkel covered on all stats except s/r. But he is half Morkel's age with half of his career still to go.. so plenty of time to improve that. When do fast bowlers peak?  So Paddles Morkel is hi quality in your eyes but Haze is over rated. 







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Mods why when I have changed my u/n are you still putting baggyreenmania on my posts?
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 3:27 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 2:52 PM

Morkel    86 m.  306 wk  @27.66   3.10 e/r.  53.33 s/r
H/wood  41 m.  155 wk    @26.7   2.79 e/r    57.5  s/r.
Morkel has 8 five wicket hauls. Haze already has 6 five wicket hauls. Both do not have a 10 wk innings haul. 

Compare the two records. Haze has Morkel covered on all stats except s/r. But he is half Morkel's age with half of his career still to go.. so plenty of time to improve that. When do fast bowlers peak?  So Paddles Morkel is hi quality in your eyes but Haze is over rated. 







Yips. Morkel is underrated and high quality, and Haze is overrated especially where Haze gets a new ball and Morkel gets an old ball. 

Look at the series they played together this year:

POSPLAYERCURRENT TEAMMATCHINNSECOAVGSR

1Vernon PhilanderSouth Africa482.0916.8148.38
2Lungi NgidiSouth Africa122.8315.0031.80
3Josh HazlewoodAustralia482.9439.2580.00
4Chadd SayersAustralia122.9873.00147.00
5Pat CumminsAustralia483.0321.4542.45
6Kagiso RabadaSouth Africa483.1519.2636.74
7Nathan LyonAustralia483.2342.5679.06
8Morne MorkelSouth Africa363.2419.6036.27
9Keshav MaharajSouth Africa483.5533.6556.94
10Mitchell StarcAustralia363.7834.4254.67
11Dean ElgarSouth Africa424.0016.0024.00
12Mitchell MarshAustralia464.0242.2563.00


I wouldn't worry about 5fors and 10fors, Morkel shared wickets with Steyn, Philander, Rabada, Ngidi, Abbott... et al.

But seriously - how did Morkel just slice through Australia so easily when Haze couldn't buy a wicket?

The difference you want to ignore appears to be that Haze is in decline and Morkel was just getting better and better all the time...
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I expect all bowlers have a poor series at some stage. 
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:P Of course...

But my view doesn't change just because Morne had awful test career starting stats where his sole role was to bowl short stuff (under instruction for the good of the team - not his own stats) - when he was actually a very good line and length man for the back half to third of his career.

Morne used to rough them up for Steyn to mop them up. Later after manuy coaches and new fast men in the team - Morne was allowed to play his own game. Which was far more efficient for his stats. Hence you will see his last few years were very good.



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If he has a poor series again India..then you have something. So wait and see. He has started on a good note.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 4:29 PM
If he has a poor series again India..then you have something. So wait and see. He has started on a good note.

Well I am giving the first game to the Indian bowlers...

I am not partitioning the Aus attack - that is for you and Mike to do...

I am just going to group them together :P
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https://www.cricket.com.au/~/-/media/News/2018/12/13PS-pitch2.ashx?w=1600}

Look at this "green monster".  Lot of moisture under the surface me thinks. Will suit our seamers.  Pity tho Oz do not have a specialist swing bowler in our attack.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 4:52 PM
https://www.cricket.com.au/~/-/media/News/2018/12/13PS-pitch2.ashx?w=1600}

Look at this "green monster".  Lot of moisture under the surface me thinks. Will be litening quick..should suit our faster men more. Pity tho Oz do not have a specialist swing bowler in our attack.

Why will it suit your faster men more?
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 4:55 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 4:52 PM

Why will it suit your faster men more?

The ball will bounce and skid more. As we have the quickest attack that will benefit us.
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FriSunny35°19°  SatCloudy28°17°  SunShowers24°15°   MonCloudy24°14 °TueSunny25°16°

Five day Perth forecast.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:06 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 4:55 PM

The ball will bounce and skid more. As we have the quickest attack that will benefit us.

Oh - that 1km/h - yeah..... nah. Not based on the last test its not.

Aren't bounce and skid more typically mutually exclusive except where "tennis bally"?

If that grass grips, Sharma and Bumrah are going to be asking some questions...

Australia has to outbowl India this time. Or start dropping people... *looks at Starc*
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 5:10 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:06 PM

Oh - that 1km/h - yeah..... nah. Not based on the last test its not.

If that grass grips, Sharma and Bumrah are going to be asking some questions...

Australia has to outbowl India this time. Or start dropping people...

So are Haze and Cummins.  Cummo will be quicker. Starc needs to lift his game.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:13 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 5:10 PM

So are Haze and Cummins.  Cummo will be quicker. Starc needs to lift his game.

Cummins is a back of a length bowler who sometimes gets some outswing. I don't see him trying to seam it around tbh. And I don't see him bowling any faster this week neither...

Starc is facing the axe... It is that simple...
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:13 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 5:10 PM

So are Haze and Cummins.  Cummo will be quicker. Starc needs to lift his game.

What about on those overcast days. Worried these will suit India more.
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Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 5:15 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:13 PM

Cummins is a back of a length bowler who sometimes gets some outswing. I don't see him trying to seam it around tbh. And I don't see him bowling any faster this week neither...

Starc is facing the axe... It is that simple...

Then with one enforcer sadly out of form and  Cummins no longer express we are in the poo.  Pattinson could play the enforcer role. But where is he?
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:13 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 5:10 PM

So are Haze and Cummins.  Cummo will be quicker. Starc needs to lift his game.

Bumrah will. I see him as our biggest danger on this deck.
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:18 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:13 PM

What about on those overcast days. Worried these will suit India more.

Oh for sure, more so if Bhuvi Plays. 

But Shami swings it big and both ways when its going... 



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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:23 PM
baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:13 PM

Bumrah will. I see him as our biggest danger on this deck.

Bumrah is fierce. The cricket world has never seen anything like him. 

I would have loved to have seen SSmith v Bumrah...

That is the real pity right now... it wasn't Kohli vs Smith - we've seen that already... Bumrah vs Smith - that is what the neutrals wanted. Because had Smudger dragged Bumrah outside his offstump like he has to everyone else with great success, Bumrah can fire it in at the stumps on a dime with total accuracy... Would have been a great and enthralling chess match between the two...

I personally think Smith would had played him out - then farmed off Sharma, Shami and Ash. If I were Steve Smith - that's what I would have done...
Edited
7 Years Ago by Paddles
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baggygreenmania - 13 Dec 2018 5:22 PM
Paddles - 13 Dec 2018 5:15 PM

Then with one enforcer sadly out of form and  Cummins no longer express we are in the poo.  Pattinson could play the enforcer role. But where is he?

Pattinson just played for Vic... And he is a fine bowler, when fit. I rate him highly. Good pace, lovely outswing, nice in seam - seems a complete enough bowler to me to be a star cricketer.
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