Electric cars


Electric cars

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mouflonrouge
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Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 2:50 PM
mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:43 PM

The car comes with a 8 or 10 year battery warranty so forget about worrying about that.  If you spend $100 a week on petrol that's $50k you will spend over 10 years.  Plenty enough of savings to purchase a new set of batteries.

As for charging points there's a Tesla wall with points at my local shopping centre and I'm in a regional town.  https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/supercharger

And that's just Tesla.  Don't think service stations won't be soon putting them in.  A 20 minute stop on your drive from Sydney to Melbourne is an opportunity to get you to buy stuff from their stores.


Look I like the tech and the savings over 10 years is interesting. But what about coming up with the $70K to start with.

And that is the bare bones no options stock price. Add a couple of options like insane mode and you quickly get up to $100K or more.

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mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:53 PM
Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 2:50 PM

Look I like the tech and the savings over 10 years is interesting. But what about coming up with the $70K to start with.

And that is the bare bones no options stock price. Add a couple of options like insane mode and you quickly get up to $100K or more.

Uh huh:  The base model is $49k not $70k.

A base model Commodore is $36k.  A fully tricked up version is $57k.  

Besides which, forget Tesla for a moment.  Every major European car company (BMW, Volkswagon, Peugot, Renault, Audi, Mercedes) are bringing out full EV's and they've been around for 100 years or more and are much better at making cars than Tesla. As Musk said he wanted his company to be the beginning, not the end point.

I'm starting to think you're trolling.  All the info is there in the links.   




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China has over 90% of the world’s rare earth metal deposits for PV cells & battery tech...so essentially you’ll be replacing Saudi Arabia with China.

Also it’s questionable whether Australia’s lithium is better quality than Chile or Bolivia.
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Service intervals are at 50 000 km for an EV.
10-15 000 kms for an ICE.

200 moving parts vs 20 000 + in an ICE.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2018/09/06/seven-reasons-why-the-internal-combustion-engine-is-a-dead-man-walking-updated/#63fb9327603f



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Edited
8 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:44 PM
Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 4:52 PM

Oh sorry, I also forgot to mention:

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/24/nickel-mining-hidden-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/tibetans-in-anguish-as-chinese-mines-pollute-their-sacred-grasslands/2016/12/25/bb6aad06-63bc-11e6-b4d8-33e931b5a26d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b27e31f0861f

Lithium projects in Bolivia plan to displace 10's of thousands of people and cause environmental disaster to the region. 

Lithium is a finite resource in limited supply. How are you going to electrify the entire world's transport off that? Not possible. 

No safe way to recycle lithium-ion batteries - https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/10/electric-cars-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling

Re: Fine Particle Emissions - Overall, it appears that EVs do not result in significant reductions of PM and therefore cannot be considered the single solution to urban air pollution. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128117705000121

I could go on and on.....but yeah keep living in your Utopia that EV's are a silver bullet.

So I take it you don't use anything else that uses batteries or any other product that uses these materials, or it's just EVs that are bad?
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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 4:15 PM
China has over 90% of the world’s rare earth metal deposits for PV cells & battery tech...so essentially you’ll be replacing Saudi Arabia with China.Also it’s questionable whether Australia’s lithium is better quality than Chile or Bolivia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Are you working for Shell?

According to Wikipedia you could build a billion cars without exhausting current production.

Another source there says that even factoring in expanded production there's more than enough lithium until 2100.  

And I would have thought by then there'd probably be alternative technologies coming online. https://www.electrive.com/2018/06/21/vw-secures-solid-state-technology-from-quantumscape/

Also Chile holds the largest reserves at 56% followed by Australia, Argentina and then China in various order depending on what source you quote.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/268790/countries-with-the-largest-lithium-reserves-worldwide/
https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/minerals/mineral-resources-and-advice/australian-resource-reviews/lithium

Also this.  http://www.mining.com/australia-takes-chile-worlds-no-1-lithium-producer/

You are so fundamentally wrong about almost everything you post I'm wondering if you're taking the piss?




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Edited
8 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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https://www.smh.com.au/national/don-t-buy-the-scare-against-electric-vehicles-20190409-p51cea.html


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OK great, a base model is 49K but that is a long way off to someone buying a festiva, Hyundai or what have you for 18 odd thousand or whatever it is.

49K is a lot of money, and what range can it achieve and how long for it to charge?

And what does 49K actually get you?

Is it the Model 3 you are talking about? Because they reckon that will be 35K USD. It’sd Getting there, but I still think they are at least another 10 years away before they start selling cars under 30K in Australia.

Everything else looks real friggin pricey.

I’m not willing to adopt this early because I still think there is a lot more development to be had in the next few years.
Edited
8 Months Ago by mouflonrouge
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This is an interesting article from the Business Insider.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/electric-cars-challenging-tesla-model-3-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

There are 10 alternatives to Tesla and some of them look real sexy and have a reasonable range. I like the BMW and Volkswagen ID. Also the General Motors option and Nissan E+ look good too.

But there isn’t a lot of choice under 50K. People are looking at 50K at least, especially if you add an option here or there, the price goes up a lot.

The price will need to come down. It eventually will but then how does the grid cope. We will need tens of Billions of new infrastructure and a lot of base load.
Edited
8 Months Ago by mouflonrouge
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mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 7:51 PM
This is an interesting article from the Business Insider.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/electric-cars-challenging-tesla-model-3-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

There are 10 alternatives to Tesla and some of them look real sexy and have a reasonable range. I like the BMW and Volkswagen ID. Also the General Motors option and Nissan E+ look good too.

But there isn’t a lot of choice under 50K. People are looking at 50K at least, especially if you add an option here or there, the price goes up a lot.

The price will need to come down. It eventually will but then how does the grid cope. We will need tens of Billions of new infrastructure and a lot of base load.

Well look, flat screen TV's were worth a lot years ago, but now they are dirt cheap comparatively. When the technology becomes a lot more ingrained and widespread, the costs of these will go down
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No doubt they will eventually go down. In 20 to 30 years from now, they should even be that much more fully developed too, and approaching widespread use.

But I am worried more about the electricity infrastructure. Imagine a hot summer day and everyone arriving home and plunging their cars in. That could be interesting.
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mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 8:32 PM
No doubt they will eventually go down. In 20 to 30 years from now, they should even be that much more fully developed too, and approaching widespread use.But I am worried more about the electricity infrastructure. Imagine a hot summer day and everyone arriving home and plunging their cars in. That could be interesting.

If you charge your car at work or the train station or where ever you park your car you could come home with a battery at 95% capacity.  And then you can plug it in a power your whole house until you go to bed.

A car battery in one of these cars is bigger than the Tesla Powerwalls you stick on the side of your house.  (You could also program it to recharge during off-peak times say at 3am in the morning.)  You can also sell the power out of it back into the grid.

 


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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:52 PM
paulbagzFC - 10 Apr 2019 12:45 PM

Better in what way? 

How does one even begin to measure that?

I can walk around in a CBD and not choke on fumes?

-PB

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Aren't the oil companies like the biggest investors in solar and battery tech startups?

They can see the writing is on the wall.

-PB

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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 4:15 PM
China has over 90% of the world’s rare earth metal deposits for PV cells & battery tech...so essentially you’ll be replacing Saudi Arabia with China.Also it’s questionable whether Australia’s lithium is better quality than Chile or Bolivia.

China is and will be the biggest economy in time anyways, happy to see the arrogant Oil Sheiks return to nothing in time.

-PB

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Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 3:22 PM
mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:53 PM

Uh huh:  The base model is $49k not $70k.

A base model Commodore is $36k.  A fully tricked up version is $57k.  

Besides which, forget Tesla for a moment.  Every major European car company (BMW, Volkswagon, Peugot, Renault, Audi, Mercedes) are bringing out full EV's and they've been around for 100 years or more and are much better at making cars than Tesla. As Musk said he wanted his company to be the beginning, not the end point.

I'm starting to think you're trolling.  All the info is there in the links.   


Renault has had there's out for 5-10 years now. It's not just Tesla. The Renault Zoe.


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Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 3:22 PM
mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:53 PM

Uh huh:  The base model is $49k not $70k.

A base model Commodore is $36k.  A fully tricked up version is $57k.  

Besides which, forget Tesla for a moment.  Every major European car company (BMW, Volkswagon, Peugot, Renault, Audi, Mercedes) are bringing out full EV's and they've been around for 100 years or more and are much better at making cars than Tesla. As Musk said he wanted his company to be the beginning, not the end point.

I'm starting to think you're trolling.  All the info is there in the links.   


Zoe is 47k$


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paladisious - 10 Apr 2019 4:32 PM
socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:44 PM

So I take it you don't use anything else that uses batteries or any other product that uses these materials, or it's just EVs that are bad?

You're straw-manning my argument(s). 

Yes, of course, I use products with battery technology and I am pro-EV (in principle). For the record, I don't even vote liberal and I have a Masters in Energy Systems which primarily deals with sustainable supply-side energy. So I have a fair bit of skin in the game. 

My issue is with people that believe EV's are the solution to our emissions problem. Transportation accounts for 14% of global emissions according to the EPA.

Even if you were to transition 1:1 from ICE to EV (which is impossible on current technology) you will be cutting global emissions by a mere fraction. The negative externalities of replacing ICE with EV 1:1 cannot be ignored. 

It's laughable how religious some of you folks are about EV's and when someone brings up the negative side to EV's you get branded a liberal, climate change denier or some other trope. People who study this area every day know that EV's are far from perfect. 
Edited
8 Months Ago by socceroo_06
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Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 4:37 PM
socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 4:15 PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Are you working for Shell?

According to Wikipedia you could build a billion cars without exhausting current production.

Another source there says that even factoring in expanded production there's more than enough lithium until 2100.  

And I would have thought by then there'd probably be alternative technologies coming online. https://www.electrive.com/2018/06/21/vw-secures-solid-state-technology-from-quantumscape/

Also Chile holds the largest reserves at 56% followed by Australia, Argentina and then China in various order depending on what source you quote.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/268790/countries-with-the-largest-lithium-reserves-worldwide/
https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/minerals/mineral-resources-and-advice/australian-resource-reviews/lithium

Also this.  http://www.mining.com/australia-takes-chile-worlds-no-1-lithium-producer/

You are so fundamentally wrong about almost everything you post I'm wondering if you're taking the piss?


Again the dumb argument that someone who raises concerns over EV's is working for Shell. Are you literally 2 years old? 

So far, you've waved away concerns over child labour in Cobalt mines. In fact, you went as far as justifying it by saying if they can do it in clothing manufacturing, I guess it's permissible in EV manufacturing too.  

Plenty of more concerns addressed here regarding lithium-ion batteries: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact 

I personally have no issue with EV's in principle, but a 1:1 substitution of EV's to ICE's is not the answer to reducing global transportation emissions. 



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I'd buy one if they didn't look like something a boring whiny tasteless socialist fuckwit would drive.   
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ErogenousZone - 11 Apr 2019 11:38 AM
I'd buy one if they didn't look like something a boring whiny tasteless socialist fuckwit would drive.   

Susan the Mercedes model. Looks class imo.


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Anyone heard about this.
I was only talking about this the other day.. To get our closed car making factories out of mothballs to make the next gen people movers. Well appears this is about to come to fruition with plans by a billionaire businessman to reopen the old Holden plant in Sth Aus to build Aussie made BEVs. This is exciting news... An update.. the company may now make the vehicles in Melbourne.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/gupta-plans-ev-plant-australia-powered-solar-storage-94177/

Edited
8 Months Ago by baggygreenmania
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socceroo_06 - 11 Apr 2019 11:01 AM
Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 4:37 PM

Again the dumb argument that someone who raises concerns over EV's is working for Shell. Are you literally 2 years old? 

So far, you've waved away concerns over child labour in Cobalt mines. In fact, you went as far as justifying it by saying if they can do it in clothing manufacturing, I guess it's permissible in EV manufacturing too.  

Plenty of more concerns addressed here regarding lithium-ion batteries: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact 

I personally have no issue with EV's in principle, but a 1:1 substitution of EV's to ICE's is not the answer to reducing global transportation emissions. 



Emissions aside there's still plenty of reasons as outlined above in any number of posts to get on with it.
 


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Watch the formula e. 


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Munrubenmuz - 12 Apr 2019 10:04 AM
socceroo_06 - 11 Apr 2019 11:01 AM

Emissions aside there's still plenty of reasons as outlined above in any number of posts to get on with it.
 

Cleaning up the air quality in our cities for a start.

Socceroo 06 if you have ethical issues about some of the products within EVs then you should never buy anything at all.

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Deleted as posted in wrong thread.

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Munrubenmuz - 12 Apr 2019 1:57 PM
mouflonrouge - 12 Apr 2019 1:57 PM

.

.

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The decision by a number of developed economies to ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars, from as early as 2025, and by 2040 at the latest, and the decision by every car manufacturer to shovel virtually all their R&D dollars – tens of billions of dollars – into electric vehicles tells us where the future lies.

The big oil majors are snapping up charging technology companies wherever they can, and battery storage too. Even Shell think everything will be electric by the mid 2030s.

While our Government is walking around with blinkers on other niche Australian players are already emerging with their own electric people mover manufacturing plans..from Michelle Nazzari and her electric scooters at Fonzarelli, the two-door cargo vehicles at ACE-EV in Brisbane to electric trucks and delivery vans adapted to conventional chassis by the SEA Electric in Victoria.
https://thedriven.io/2019/02/19/sea-electric-targets-us-trucking-market-as-next-logical-step/
https://thedriven.io/?s=fonzarelli
https://thedriven.io/2019/03/28/australias-first-home-made-electric-cargo-vehicle-to-be-unveiled-next-week/


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baggygreenmania - 11 Apr 2019 8:20 PM
Anyone heard about this.
I was only talking about this the other day.. To get our closed car making factories out of mothballs to make the next gen people movers. Well appears this is about to come to fruition with plans by a billionaire businessman to reopen the old Holden plant in Sth Aus to build Aussie made BEVs. This is exciting news... An update.. the company may now make the vehicles in Melbourne.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/gupta-plans-ev-plant-australia-powered-solar-storage-94177/

The old Holden factory site at Elizabeth should be demolished, and a boutique, 25k capacity football stadium be built in its place, to be used by a new A League consortium.

GO


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